Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates

[swerve]

The numbers are lifetime, & the F-35's expected to be in service for a very long time. Yes, attrition is very low nowadays, not like the massive loss & death rates of the 1950s, but it's not zero, & when an aircraft type is in service for a long time, there'll be a few losses, even airframes wearing out. The intention isn't to buy 'em all in one go, or even to have 138 in service simultaneously.

If we're not going to buy the planned number, surely the chance of buying some A as well as B goes down. Would we want just a handful of A?

 

[StobieWan]

I doubt having the B model only will generate maintenance savings... it has many unique parts as a result of the lift fan/moving parts. I believe the A has higher availability than the B. It’s also significantly cheaper.

I suspect a single supply chain plus a single training and conversion path might generate some savings however - as you say, the B has a fair few bits different to the A and while the A is definitely cheaper to buy and fly, there's some money to be clawed back by having that single chain - not enough to entirely offset the savings from a partial A fleet, but enough to at least be considered.

What we're all worried about is basically, not getting enough B to keep cabs on deck for the RN - I don't have any real ambitions as to having both carriers at sea with fixed wing assets however. I suspect if the balloon had gone up, we'd either be flying rotary assets off one carrier or invite the USMC aboard. The only scenario requiring the UK to stand alone vs an enemy would be FI 2.0, which I don't believe is worth staying awake at night over.

 

[south]

The Tornado GR4 retires from service with the RAF. The significance of this aircraft to the RAF cannot be understated - it served in ops in GW1 (as the GR1), Former Yugoslavia, Bosnia, Kosovo, GW2, Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, and has been continuously deployed in one scrap or another executing British Foreign Policy for 25 years.

 

[south]

Sorry forgot to add Libya to the above.

 

[hauritz]

The numbers are lifetime, & the F-35's expected to be in service for a very long time. Yes, attrition is very low nowadays, not like the massive loss & death rates of the 1950s, but it's not zero, & when an aircraft type is in service for a long time, there'll be a few losses, even airframes wearing out. The intention isn't to buy 'em all in one go, or even to have 138 in service simultaneously.

If we're not going to buy the planned number, surely the chance of buying some A as well as B goes down. Would we want just a handful of A?

I have wondered the same myself. The current plans seem to be to operate 24 to 36 F-35B for each carrier. Even allowing for a fairly high attrition rate it seems that 138 B models might be overkill. Surely there should be enough for a couple of squadrons of A models as well.

 

[swerve]

They're not just for the carriers. They'll also be flown by the RAF from land bases. Some will probably never see a carrier.

 

[ngatimozart]

Interesting BBC article about problems within the RAF pilot training program. It appears that the time taken for a trainee pilot to progress from starting abinito training to being fully qualified in their specialist field has doubled from 3 years to 6 - 7 years since 2016 due to problems within the contracted company, Ascent, that provides the training. IMHO, outsourcing of such training may not have been such a bright idea, because the problems appear to be a shortage of aircraft and instructors, plus the contractors are being paid for courses that they didn't conduct.

Hundreds of trainee RAF pilots not flying

My own personal view. There needs to be a wholesale clean out of the UK MOD from top to bottom, a modern professional system instituted with outside personnel bought in and civil servants banned from the MOD or applying for any positions within it. A modern professional procurement system should be stood up as soon as possible. Then maybe, just maybe, they might be able to sort out the current shambles.

 

[MrConservative]

Interesting BBC article about problems within the RAF pilot training program. It appears that the time taken for a trainee pilot to progress from starting abinito training to being fully qualified in their specialist field has doubled from 3 years to 6 - 7 years since 2016 due to problems within the contracted company, Ascent, that provides the training. IMHO, outsourcing of such training may not have been such a bright idea, because the problems appear to be a shortage of aircraft and instructors, plus the contractors are being paid for courses that they didn't conduct.

Contractors for flight screening fine and some niche areas, but not for the training of a professional military pilot and air warfare crew in a 1st World military.

My own personal view. There needs to be a wholesale clean out of the UK MOD from top to bottom, a modern professional system instituted with outside personnel bought in and civil servants banned from the MOD or applying for any positions within it. A modern professional procurement system should be stood up as soon as possible. Then maybe, just maybe, they might be able to sort out the current shambles.

There probably needs to be a wholesale clean out of in probably every nook and cranny of the current British government the way(ward) its going of late starting with their current PM.

 

[ngatimozart]

There probably needs to be a wholesale clean out of in probably every nook and cranny of the current British government the way(ward) its going of late starting with their current PM.

I can just see the look of horror on Sir Humphrey's face to both of our suggestions. I suspect that he would need a defib.

 

[John Fedup]

If a new election results in a Corbyn victory, it might be an extinction event as opposed to wholesale clean out for MOD. I really can’t see a decent Brexit solution at this point.

 

[ngatimozart]

If a new election results in a Corbyn victory, it might be an extinction event as opposed to wholesale clean out for MOD. I really can’t see a decent Brexit solution at this point.

Neither can I and it's a self inflicted wound for the current PM. There are some crucial RAF acquisitions in the pipeline and any greater political destabilisation than now will have the potential to derail them. The two I am thinking of are the P-8 and the E-7A AEW&C acquisitions, presuming that the E-7A is chosen as the E-3 AEW replacement.

 

[John Fedup]

The future of the PoW along with the Dreadnaught program could be on the rocks as well. This mess was started by Cameron. If you are not 100% certain you are going to get the result from a referendum that you want, don’t hold one!

 

[t68]

The future of the PoW along with the Dreadnaught program could be on the rocks as well. This mess was started by Cameron. If you are not 100% certain you are going to get the result from a referendum that you want, don’t hold one!

Or at least stack it in your favour with a double majority like the Australian model, 50%+1 is always a risky adventure

 

[Whiplash34]

I can just see the look of horror on Sir Humphrey's face to both of our suggestions. I suspect that he would need a defib.

Had some downtime away from work due to injury recently...I’ve watched every episode of Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister...one of THE best shows IMHO....sums up Pollies and their support staff / civil servants so aptly...!

“...Who should lie?.....Sleeping dogs Minister.....”
“...a basic rule of Government is never look into anything you don’t have to...”
“....never set up an enquiry unless you know in advance what it’s findings will be...”

Just gold.

Sorry, off topic...

 

[t68]

Had some downtime away from work due to injury recently...I’ve watched every episode of Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister...one of THE best shows IMHO....sums up Pollies and their support staff / civil servants so aptly...!

“...Who should lie?.....Sleeping dogs Minister.....”
“...a basic rule of Government is never look into anything you don’t have to...”
“....never set up an enquiry unless you know in advance what it’s findings will be...”

Just gold.

Sorry, off topic...

Well I wonder what they say about Cameron, breaking all the cardinals rules of politics

 

[John Fedup]

Saying anything at this point would just remind voters how badly he screwed up, would just enhance a Corbyn victory outcome. The armed services in the UK must be cringing.

 

[ngatimozart]

Back on topic please.

 

[south]

Good and bad news:

First to comment on the above - this pilot training issue has the ability to really cripple the RAF (and wider Uk MOD air arms) long term. The implications will be felt for years to come. Recruits come in keen and motivated, and after witnessing such a poor system are frustrated and cynical about the training system before they begin their first tour. It also drives problems regarding their initial ROSO - many people are eligible to leave after their first tour because of the extended time taken in training; this means they can leave without having to become instructors asked giving back to the system.

Good news though Multi-billion-pound deal for early warning radar aircraft

Finally signed a deal for 5 Wedgetail. Though 5 is a bit short the leap in capability and reliability over their current E3D fleet will be welcome.

 

[StobieWan]

Good and bad news:

First to comment on the above - this pilot training issue has the ability to really cripple the RAF (and wider Uk MOD air arms) long term. The implications will be felt for years to come. Recruits come in keen and motivated, and after witnessing such a poor system are frustrated and cynical about the training system before they begin their first tour. It also drives problems regarding their initial ROSO - many people are eligible to leave after their first tour because of the extended time taken in training; this means they can leave without having to become instructors asked giving back to the system.

Good news though Multi-billion-pound deal for early warning radar aircraft

Finally signed a deal for 5 Wedgetail. Though 5 is a bit short the leap in capability and reliability over their current E3D fleet will be welcome.

I'd have liked six but the reality of it is that of the seven they have right now, two are parts hulks anyway I believe so we're getting five brand new cabs with those lovely little dinky paper mats and plastic liners over the seats plus a bouquet of flowers from the dealer (I'm sure that's how military jet procurement works..)

Best decision they could announce and I'm super excited to be honest.

Social media has some truly galactically idiotic comments, like "why can't we build something with two Sampson radar for all around coverage ?" etc

I may troll them and suggest dusting off the Concorde blueprints so we can have a SUPERSONIC AEW.

 

[Jack Wyatt]

A good purchase by the Brits.

Not only buying a good aircraft but also an upgrade pathway. See link below on upgrades to RAAF Wedgetails.

Govt approves $580m Wedgetail upgrade - Australian Aviation