RMAF Future; need opinions

[STURM]

Bonza, I think it would be safe to assume that in any future conflict against the USN and USAF, no opponent would be able to get himself in a WVR situation without first being fire-balled by an AMRAAM. [assuming any of his fighters were still intact on the ground and had runways to take off from !]

IMO, for conflicts involving non-NATO countries or Israel, a lack of technology and network-centric assets would mean that opposing sides would still rely a lot on WVR engagements. I read somewhere that despite a technological advantage in technology and network-centric assets over most Arab air forces, the ISAF still devote a large part of their training to 'dog-fight'/WVR secenarios. For countries like Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia, the opposite would apply, more emphasis on developing a BVR capability, made possible by newer assets. Of all 3 countries, the RTAF will be the first to have a network-centric capability, when their Gripen's and Eriye arrive. At present, there's been no news about the TNI-AU getting the Adder or data links for their Su-30's.

Apart from the Ethopia/Eritria and Peru/Ecuador wars I think most air to air engagements the past decade or so have been BVR.

 

[OPSSG]

@STURM, thanks for sharing your reading list. If you are interested, you can read up on the USAF's doctrine here (118 page PDF document) and Col John A. Warden III's "Air Theory for the Twenty-First Century". These two documents are fairly dry reading but essential if we are to be on the same page.

@Bonza, for a British perspective on air power doctrine you can read the 68 page AP3000 Edition 4. This would supplement the US source documents, which I believe you have read.

BTW, the technology in the Sniper XR Targeting pod is derived from the USN's advanced targeting pod system and is also implemented internally in the F-35. Below is a video of the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS). EOTS is the infra-red targeting system for the F-35.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igoV7W7la_0]F-35 - EOTS[/ame]

Do you know if Sniper XR offer any capabilities lacking in Litening and Damocles?

My discussion below does not focus on the Sniper pod's capabilities compared to other pods. Rather, I focus on what the Sniper pod enables.

One, the Sniper pod enables the aircraft to operate at up to 40,000 feet altitude, which has the following basic implications:

(i) higher altitude means less risk to the jet and more reaction time to MANIPAD threats;

(ii) higher altitude means the PGM can be lofted from further away (which means more operational flexibility and less risk); and

(iii) higher altitude means easier ground co-ordination with Apaches, artillery and HIMARS (as the artillery rounds on the way to the target are a risk to aircraft).​

Two, the Sniper pod's third-generation mid-wave FLIR system means:

(i) it is has better combat-identification capability;

(ii) it can provide IR and live video feed to HQ and ground troops (and the imagery can be used for further analysis - like battle damage assessment); and

(iii) it's improved laser spot-tracker and laser marker means it can better self designate a ground target or provide such designation for another shooter (which enables the aircraft to perform the role of a forward air controller).​

And the Sniper pod does what Litening and Damocles pods can do better, while being easier to maintain. Below is a video of images from Sniper XR:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJYR_ZsryLc]Sniper XR[/ame]

 

[komandoaktiv]

I think that for the short term (up till 2020), RMAF does not need another type of fighter in its inventory. I know the current defence minister is looking for the MiG's replacement and not gonna get a russian plane, but IMO the MKM is already the MiG's replacement. Just trade the MiG's and get 6more MKM's to get 2 Sqn's. As for the other fighters in the RMAF, upgrade them (the hornets and hawks) and get additional 2nd hand aircraft to bolster the fleet ( 4-6 more hornets from canada, and omani hawks as they are getting typhoons i think)

The funding can be used to get AWACS, additional MPA's and the most important of all, the long due heli replacement programme.

Around 2020, when alot of the new fighters are maturing, then i think is the time RMAF to look for a new fighter.[/QUOTE

Gripen for RMAF?

Gripen ganti MiG-29N?

Oleh RAJA SYAHRIR ABU BAKAR
[email protected]

LANGKAWI 3 Dis. - Perbincangan antara kerajaan Malaysia dengan syarikat pengeluar pesawat tempur Gripen, SAAB telah dimulakan sejak enam bulan lalu berhubung penggantian jet MiG-29N yang akan ditamatkan perkhidmatannya mulai tahun depan.

Pengarah Kempen SAAB, Magnus Lewis-Olsson berkata, perbincangan dengan Kementerian Pertahanan dan Tentera Udara Diraja Malaysia (TUDM) itu masih berlangsung sehingga kini.

''Sehingga kini, pihak kementerian dan TUDM menunjukkan maklum balas yang positif.

''Gripen merupakan pesawat paling sesuai buat Malaysia kerana kos senggaraan dan pemodenannya yang berpatutan berbanding pesawat lain," katanya kepada Utusan Malaysia sempena Pameran Udara dan Maritim Antarabangsa Langkawi (LIMA) 2009 di sini hari ini.

Jun lalu, Menteri Pertahanan, Datuk Seri Dr. Ahmad Zahid Hamidi mengumumkan kerajaan akan menamatkan perkhidmatan MiG-29N bermula tahun depan.

Mengulas lanjut, Lewis-Olsson berkata, penggunaan enjin tunggal pada Gripen bukan isu bagi Malaysia untuk tidak memilikinya.

Katanya, dengan saiz pesawat kecil dan enjin yang lebih ringan, Gripen mampu bergerak laju apabila mengurangkan geseran di udara seterusnya menjimatkan penggunaan minyak.

''Walaupun Malaysia sudah biasa menggunakan pesawat tempur dengan enjin kembar, banyak angkatan tentera udara di dunia seperti Australia telah menghentikan dasar memiliki enjin berkembar," tegasnya.

Jelasnya, Gripen kini digunakan oleh empat negara termasuk negara pengeluarnya iaitu Sweden, Afrika Selatan, Republik Czech dan Hungary sementara sebanyak enam buah telah ditempah Thailand.

Sementara itu, Naib Presiden BAE Systems Asia Pasifik, Chriss Nunn ketika ditemui memberitahu, pihaknya sedia membekalkan pesawat tempur 'Eurofighter Typhoon' bagi menggantikan MiG-29M TUDM.

Beliau memberitahu, jet itu merupakan yang termoden dalam kategori pesawat tempur pelbagai guna (MRCA) di dunia sehingga kini.

''Kami belum mengadakan perbincangan dengan kerajaan anda kerana Malaysia masih belum mengemukakan spesifikasi pesawat yang dicari," ujarnya.

 

[komandoaktiv]

RMAF bought a low cost fighter that has higher maintenance costs. If you save money up-front at the point of initial purchase (by buying Russian), you pay more later for maintenance.

RMAF interested to acquire Gripen?

Oleh RAJA SYAHRIR ABU BAKAR
[email protected]

Gripen ganti MiG-29N?


LANGKAWI 3 Dis. - Perbincangan antara kerajaan Malaysia dengan syarikat pengeluar pesawat tempur Gripen, SAAB telah dimulakan sejak enam bulan lalu berhubung penggantian jet MiG-29N yang akan ditamatkan perkhidmatannya mulai tahun depan.

Pengarah Kempen SAAB, Magnus Lewis-Olsson berkata, perbincangan dengan Kementerian Pertahanan dan Tentera Udara Diraja Malaysia (TUDM) itu masih berlangsung sehingga kini.

''Sehingga kini, pihak kementerian dan TUDM menunjukkan maklum balas yang positif.

''Gripen merupakan pesawat paling sesuai buat Malaysia kerana kos senggaraan dan pemodenannya yang berpatutan berbanding pesawat lain," katanya kepada Utusan Malaysia sempena Pameran Udara dan Maritim Antarabangsa Langkawi (LIMA) 2009 di sini hari ini.

Jun lalu, Menteri Pertahanan, Datuk Seri Dr. Ahmad Zahid Hamidi mengumumkan kerajaan akan menamatkan perkhidmatan MiG-29N bermula tahun depan.

Mengulas lanjut, Lewis-Olsson berkata, penggunaan enjin tunggal pada Gripen bukan isu bagi Malaysia untuk tidak memilikinya.

Katanya, dengan saiz pesawat kecil dan enjin yang lebih ringan, Gripen mampu bergerak laju apabila mengurangkan geseran di udara seterusnya menjimatkan penggunaan minyak.

''Walaupun Malaysia sudah biasa menggunakan pesawat tempur dengan enjin kembar, banyak angkatan tentera udara di dunia seperti Australia telah menghentikan dasar memiliki enjin berkembar," tegasnya.

Jelasnya, Gripen kini digunakan oleh empat negara termasuk negara pengeluarnya iaitu Sweden, Afrika Selatan, Republik Czech dan Hungary sementara sebanyak enam buah telah ditempah Thailand.

Sementara itu, Naib Presiden BAE Systems Asia Pasifik, Chriss Nunn ketika ditemui memberitahu, pihaknya sedia membekalkan pesawat tempur 'Eurofighter Typhoon' bagi menggantikan MiG-29M TUDM.

Beliau memberitahu, jet itu merupakan yang termoden dalam kategori pesawat tempur pelbagai guna (MRCA) di dunia sehingga kini.

''Kami belum mengadakan perbincangan dengan kerajaan anda kerana Malaysia masih belum mengemukakan spesifikasi pesawat yang dicari," ujarnya.

 

[STURM]

Typhoon dan Rafale terlalu mahal! Chinese fighters have improved a lot over the years, but their engines are still Russian and I doubt if the RMAF and government wants to go down that road. The F-35 is still years ahead of entering service.

So I guess there's no choice but the Gripen. The Thai Gripen/Eriye combination will give the RTAF a network-centric capability possesed by no one in the region apart from the RSAF. Boeing wasn't even at LIMA, and that says a lot. Given the choice, the RMAF would still select the Super Hornet. A fully proven and integrated platform.

From what I've been told, the RMAF conducted a feasability study on upgrading the Hawk 200s. The problem apart from funding is that the Selex Vixen AESA has yet to be integrated on the Hawk 200.

 

[jack412]

to assist everyone, may i suggest you use google translate to post your reply in english
Google Translate

 

[STURM]

I believe that the firing of missile salvos is not exclusive to the Russians and given the rapid rate of change in technological developments, any '70s solution would be dated and not relevant to current discussions.

I disagree, just because its a 70's [actually earlier] dated solution does not mean it does not have any application today, notwistanding the rapid rate of techological improvements.
For SAM systems, the Soviets adopted the multi salvo approach to offset any defensive maneuvers and decoys employed by a targeted aircraft and to increase the kill probabilty.
Whilst I believe this tactic is till applicable today, it tends to be expensive, requiring one to hold vast stocks of reloads. I'm not aware of the same tactic being adopted by Western operators of SAM systems. For aircraft, the multi salvo approach was adopted to take advantage of the different seeker heads mounted on their Alamos and now, Adders.

Anyway, here's a Zaloga article about early Soviet AD systems

http://bobrowen.com/nymas/defendingthekremlin.htm

 

[nevidimka]

Australia has approved the purchase of F 35 to replace its fleet of F 18 SH F. Are the Australian hornets up for sale? and would it be wise to look into purchasing them on the cheap to replace the current 8 hornets?

 

[STURM]

Its going to take a few more years before the F-35 is delivered to the RAAF and to replace the F/A-18 fleet. By that time, the F/A-18s will be a bit used. The Kuwati fleet, though not upgraded to the same standard as the RAAF's F/A-18s, would have been better as the airframes have less hours on them, but that option is no longer available.
Plus, I doubt if the RMAF is keen on acquiring legacy Hornets.

 

[OPSSG]

@STURM, it's good to interact with someone who reads widely.

Anyway, here's a Zaloga article about early Soviet AD systems

Defending the Kremlin: The First Generation of Soviet Strategic Air Defense Systems 1950-60 by Steven J. Zaloga

Thanks for the link. This is one that I have not read before.

More Su-30MKM news below:

Sukhoi simulators 'flying' soon

Thursday, December 3rd, 2009 - LANGKAWI: The Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) Sukhoi Su-30MKM simulator system is expected to be operational by February.

The simulator system includes two high-fidelity Tactical Operational Flight Trainer (TOFT) and computerbased trainer (CBT).

Heitech Padu Bhd developed it with input from the Sukhoi Design Bureau, the designer of the 30MKM and Irkut, the manufacturer of the plane.

“Following testing and commissioning, we expect both the TOFT and the CBT to be operational by February,” Heitech president Safiee Mohammad told The Malay Mail at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition 2009 (LIMA '09).

He said the TOFT had been developed for full mission training using the Distributed Mission Training concept.

This means that the training mission can be done using more than one simulated aircraft simultaneously, as if in the actual environment.

The system will also be able to achieve high-level training fidelity to simulate the aircraft flight model, sensors, radar, displays and weapon control system.

The CBT will be used as a basic training tool for pilots to familiarise themselves with the aircraft avionics and train the ground crew in maintenance and aircraft troubleshooting.

The simulator system is currently being installed at the Gong Kedak air base in Terengganu, where the Sukhoi squadron is based.

RMAF has taken delivery of 18 Sukhoi Su-30MKM aircraft that was procured in 1999 for RM3.4 billion. The aircraft is the darling of LIMA '09, displaying its phenomenal display during the daily air show.

 

[STURM]

@STURM, it's good to interact with someone who reads widely.
Thanks for the link. This is one that I have not read before.:

OPSSG,
I'm very interested in the historical aspects of the SAF, its early days in the 60's and 70's.
Do you have any links? If you haven't already seen it, I have an article about the problems Singapore faced in getting its Hunters from the UK.

Here's another Zaloga article [non aviation]

Soviet Tank Operations in the Spanish Civil War by Steven J. Zaloga

and

Australia 'cracked top-secret US jet fighter codes' | News.com.au

 

[Aussie Digger]

Australia has approved the purchase of F 35 to replace its fleet of F 18 SH F. Are the Australian hornets up for sale? and would it be wise to look into purchasing them on the cheap to replace the current 8 hornets?

RAAF's initial F-35's are replacing our old F/A-18A/B Hornets, NOT our newly ordered Super Hornets.

Our Super Hornets will not be replaced until 2023-2025. Possibly by F-35 JSF's, possibly by some other capability.

Can RMAF wait until 2025 to replace it's current aircraft with a Super Hornet fleet that will itself by 15 years old and flown at a high rate?

 

[alexz]

Australia has approved the purchase of F 35 to replace its fleet of F 18 SH F. Are the Australian hornets up for sale? and would it be wise to look into purchasing them on the cheap to replace the current 8 hornets?

Canada has alot of stored airframes and some are available for sale. Out of canada's 98 single seat and 40 twin seats, only about 70 is currently used. After the cold war ended, all of the europe-based sqn's are demobbed and extra airframes put into storage. AFAIK almost all is up to the minimum C/D standards and the in service airframes is currently being put through a mid-life upgrade. Maybe RMAF can get around 4-6 twin seater from canada, and upgrade them and the 8 current hornets to a common standard. I heard there is a new upgrade to the APG-73 radar using the processor from the APG-79 AESA radar. Maybe that can be implemented too.

Getting a few Gripens as a replacement for the Mig's, IMO is spending a huge amount money on yet another diferent platform for RMAF. The same/less money to get a dozen Gripens can get a few more MKMs to establish a 2nd sqn + 2nd hand hornets to bolster the hornet sqn, and get the Royal Oman Air Force Hawk 200s. More planes, no additional type of airframe and more money to put the planes up in the air.

I think for now RMAF has adaquate mix of airframes even with the retirement of the Mig's. MKM's for long range strike and air superiority, Hormets for dedicated maritime strike/ air defence, Hawk 200s for CAS/ air defence. So by adding a few more airframes of the current types is more than enough for now. Now is the time for RMAF to develop its AWACS/real time datalink capabilities. Maybe after 2025 that RMAF should look into getting new planes to replace the Hornets (typhoon's/f35's/super hornets?) and the Hawks (M349/Yak-130/F-50/JF-17?)

 

[nevidimka]

RAAF's initial F-35's are replacing our old F/A-18A/B Hornets, NOT our newly ordered Super Hornets.

Our Super Hornets will not be replaced until 2023-2025. Possibly by F-35 JSF's, possibly by some other capability.

Can RMAF wait until 2025 to replace it's current aircraft with a Super Hornet fleet that will itself by 15 years old and flown at a high rate?

Aha, my mistake. No wonder i was confused over the report when I read it. This is the link that said they were gonna replace the SH in 2014.

Australia gives green light for F-35s

Btw the MAF is looking increasingly likely to be heading the gripen way. I think they are looking at a deal like the 1 Thailand got, together with the Saab AEW planes.

But if the amount required for that can be used to raise a 2nd squadron of MKM's, I'm not sure it would be wise to get stuck on 3 platforms back again.

 

[STURM]

But if the amount required for that can be used to raise a 2nd squadron of MKM's, I'm not sure it would be wise to get stuck on 3 platforms back again.

Agreed, my take is that the RMAF should go for the Super Hornet to raise another squadron, this should be followed by an upgrade for the F/A-18Ds and Hawks. The Gripen NG is certainly an impressive aircraft incoporating the latest technologies. The only problem, for me, is the single engine. As for additional MKM' s I think its a bit early days. It would be prudent to wait for another year or so to see how the first 18 fare, in terms of performance, servicibility rates and after sales support. Short of some economic miracle happening or UK government offering Malaysia a very, very long term low interest loan, the Typhoon will never fly in RMAF colours, its just too pricey. So is the Rafale.

Assuming the RCAF has any of its stored Hornets for sale, from the 3 disbanded squadrons, your proposal might be feasible. The problem is the the age of the RCAF's Hornets [these were the first to enter service outside the US] plus the fact that RMAF would never go for legacy F/A-18 A and Bs, what they have in mind is something more current.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Aha, my mistake. No wonder i was confused over the report when I read it. This is the link that said they were gonna replace the SH in 2014.

Australia gives green light for F-35s

Btw the MAF is looking increasingly likely to be heading the gripen way. I think they are looking at a deal like the 1 Thailand got, together with the Saab AEW planes.

But if the amount required for that can be used to raise a 2nd squadron of MKM's, I'm not sure it would be wise to get stuck on 3 platforms back again.

I agree. Whether or not Gripen is chosen for Malaysia (and I'm not certain it necessary will be, given Thailand has already chosen it...) RMAF would do well to reduce it's in-service fighter types to only a couple of types (2 at worst).

Funding as most with most Countries is an issue, but definite capability benefits as well as logistical can be had with a reduced fighter inventory. For political or strategic reasons it may well be the case that an "East/West" mix of fighters (ie: Russian/US/European) needs to be maintained, but Malaysia could certainly do without it's present situation of SU-30, MiG-29, F/A-18D, Hawk Mk 208 and F-5 Tiger II aircraft all present in squadron or squadron minus numbers....

That situation really is quite ridiculous when viewed externally...

 

[STURM]

That situation really is quite ridiculous when viewed externally...

Its more than ridiculous, it's criminal! Thanks to meddling politicans, the RMAF was forced to support many different airframes, not so bad for a large air force like the IAF or the PLAAF who have a larger budget, more personnel and a vast support infrastucture, but for a small air force like the RMAF, an almost impossibe task. I believe the F-5Es are no longer flying but for training and for pilots to mantain their hours, 2 F-5Fs are stil operational. While I'm not claiming to be a prophet, I think that its a foregone conclusion that the Gripen will be chosen. Either that or the sale of the Fulcrums will be used to fund a small batch of MKM's.

What I dont understand is why the MBB-339 was chosen instead of additional Hawk 100s
for the LIFT role? Perhaps it was solely due to pricing. In a 2006 interview, the head of the RMAF said that there was a requirement for 8 Hawks as attrition replacements.

 

[sixsigma]

There could be a economic reason for the diverse aircraft in the RMAF inventory in that the malaysian aerospace sector contribution to the economy is expected to rise to RM 28 billion ( around US $10 billion ) for 2010. All air force purchases comes with off set arrangements and these have been proven to be to be lucrative recurring contracts. It could be a valid justification to propel the aviation industry but tactically it does injustice to the air force .

 

[justone]

Funding as most with most Countries is an issue, but definite capability benefits as well as logistical can be had with a reduced fighter inventory. For political or strategic reasons it may well be the case that an "East/West" mix of fighters (ie: Russian/US/European) needs to be maintained, but Malaysia could certainly do without it's present situation of SU-30, MiG-29, F/A-18D, Hawk Mk 208 and F-5 Tiger II aircraft all present in squadron or squadron minus numbers....

That situation really is quite ridiculous when viewed externally...

I agree with you on that. They need to get a good package and stay with one source of aircrafts the griffens would be a good aircraft for them The Swedes are cool and neutral on world issues

 

[alexz]

I believe the F-5Es are no longer flying but for training and for pilots to mantain their hours, 2 F-5Fs are stil operational.

Asked a pilot of the 12 Sqn in LIMA recently and the 12 Sqn in Butterworth is still operational and all of the F-5F, RF-5E and a few F-5E's are still flying operationally. By the looks of it they will still be flying even after the MiG's are sold off.