Republic of Singapore Air Force Discussions

[Howard Wheeldon]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Let's just put a final thread on this one. Singapore has always bought U.S. so the F15 was bound to be the natural first choice. The French, dispite all their massive marketing attempts at wooing Singapore political and public support (they even advertised on the buses!) never stood an earthly though one must hugely admire the Singapore government for playing them along. As for Eurofighter Typhoon - pity, but Singapore may well have felt that as Typhoon (until Case White is fully complete at Conningsby) isn't yet fully air to air/air to ground and thus it may have still been viewed with some degree of risk.

Perhaps the real point is that in buying F15 now Singapore is really saying that further down the road it's going for an aircraft that hasn't yet even flown - Joint Strike Fighter. What's the betting that these F15's (great aircraft though it still is) are a stop gap measure by Singapore for eventually buying JSF.

The pity is that through all this campaign Eurofighter Typhoon came out tops on performance at every stage. That's a credit to what's surely a great aircraft and still only now at the very early stage of an export campaign. Even though the omens for Eurofighter export may not look that good (only Austria has bought it outside of the four European partner governments) this airrcaft has yet to have its glory day. It will though it may not be for a few years yet.

 

[Ramjetmissile]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Next Gen fighter? the F-15?
my goodness, the F-15 was released as 3rd generation fighter and was not fully electronically outfitted unlike the F-16 back in the 1970's. Even the F-15C is not most advanced air superiority fighter anymore, especially with the appearance of the Russian Flanker jets especially the Su-35. The first F-15 roled out in the mid 1970's and entered service in 1978 in the USAF. Singapore should rather seek for the EF2000 Tyhoon or F/A-18E Super Hornet instead of any F-15s. China might also offer the J-10A (F-10) to Singapore later to support the current F-16C and D squadrons.

J-10A:lol3 in Singapore's armed force service. RSAF should rather consider MIG-21 then J-10A. Dont mean to be antagonising. Just stating the Fact

 

[shamsi]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Interesting Thread!

F-15, an old aircraft it might be, stands by its performance and history as a successful platform. Others are nice picture to get blonde women attention.

The French calling Indian deal tainted? That is hilarious. Better as the Germans what they say about Scorpene to India, as they lick their wounds.

We should not forget that alpha or beta buyer, financial arrangements play a key role in deciding defence deals, like any deals. Sometimes, specifications become ir-relevant, and so does alliances (these days).

One who is willing to pay the moolah, will get the honey jar, and drink it too.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

btw, the threads getting a bit derailed - and I realise that I'm one of the guilty ones in here.

So if we can get back to the topic, so that I don't have to end up having to ban myself.

 

[mukunda]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

You always look at heritage and previous capability - at some point paper only analysis is risky. One could argue that the Rafale is untested - except I'd bet substantial money that it would clean up a lot of modern combat aircraft - certainly at the capability level.

Hi Gary,
hope you remember me! me mukunda from FrontierIndia. Gary, can you say something more about Rafale. Why do you think it will clean up a lot of modern aircraft? Will love to get your feelings.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Hi Gary,
hope you remember me! me mukunda from FrontierIndia. Gary, can you say something more about Rafale. Why do you think it will clean up a lot of modern aircraft? Will love to get your feelings.

hi mukunda, a few reasons:

the french have always been at the high end of the curve with solid performing aircraft. basically ever since the Mirage 111E on IMV. they've only really ever made one bad decision as far as carrier aircraft and thats because I think they should have gone with the A4's rather than develop the Super Etendard.

the french have a solid reputation for integration of systems and they're deft at managing disparate customers. after all, who else successfully sells to the US, China, India and Pakistan? It's not exactly a mutual admiration society in that little lot.

Rafales developed a good reputation in areas such as Op Herakles

the main issue is when (not if) Rafales get exported, then what the export capability of the platform will be like. then you need to factor in training and support competencies.

any analysis of a platform needs to be measured against the owners requirements. eg, if you want intercontinental strike, then an Su-34 will win hands down. In a heavily radiated/emissioned environment, I would expect the Rafale to have the advantage.

 

[mukunda]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

hi mukunda, a few reasons:

the french have always been at the high end of the curve with solid performing aircraft. basically ever since the Mirage 111E on IMV. they've only really ever made one bad decision as far as carrier aircraft and thats because I think they should have gone with the A4's rather than develop the Super Etendard.

the french have a solid reputation for integration of systems and they're deft at managing disparate customers. after all, who else successfully sells to the US, China, India and Pakistan? It's not exactly a mutual admiration society in that little lot.

Rafales developed a good reputation in areas such as Op Herakles

the main issue is when (not if) Rafales get exported, then what the export capability of the platform will be like. then you need to factor in training and support competencies.

any analysis of a platform needs to be measured against the owners requirements. eg, if you want intercontinental strike, then an Su-34 will win hands down. In a heavily radiated/emissioned environment, I would expect the Rafale to have the advantage.

1)what is op Herakles?
2) In a heavily radiated/emissioned environment, rafales have the advantage:- are you talking of Active Radar cancellation? US was supposed to have it decades ago.
3) French sell systems to the USA too? very surprised

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

1)what is op Herakles?

The Operation in Afghanistan where USN and FAA aircraft ran strikes into Afghanistan

2) In a heavily radiated/emissioned environment, rafales have the advantage:- are you talking of Active Radar cancellation?

I have to confess that I'm extremely cynical of Active Radar Cancellation on an aircraft.

3) French sell systems to the USA too? very surprised

Thales is French. So, as far as co-operative sales go, then yes. They just don't sell major weapons systems.

 

[PLA2025]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

hi gf0012-aust!
thanx for the detailed reply, it shows that you are one of the few who really knows many facts about the strategy and technology affairs.
Ok back to the topic: I'm still wondering why Singapore is getting so many advanced weapons (they even have more advanced stuff than Taiwan) despite its small size nation (city-state). I wonder who would attack Singapore since it can rely on support from US and China! Singapore has much less to fear than Taiwan because Taiwan is having mainland China as its rival while China blocks any weapons deal between Taiwan and the deliverer country (USA, France, Germany etc.)
I guess Taiwanese militaries are very jealous of the Singaporians

 

[Delphinus84]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Hi folks, I am a Singaporean and I happened to see so much debate on the next generation fighter selection, just want to put in some of my ideas.
Firstly, it is obvious from the announcement that Singapore has only bought 24 fighter planes, thus it is more or less obvious that the F-15 was a mere stop gap solution to wait for the F-35 to roll out. Secondly, many people on some other forum claim that Singapore bought American planes bcos we wanted to please them...... I can tell u this is a definite NO. RSAF aims to buy and plane to replace the ageing A4SU skyhawk for the attack and striking role. Thus, looking from the selection, only the F-15 seems to be tailored to deal with such needs, it has the biggest payload too. Furthermore, it comes with AESA radar and most importantly relatively cheap of 30mio if not wrong. The package also comes with training missiles, amaarams and last but not least some'diluted' versions of JSOW, thus giving us a huge advantage. It is not wise to buy Russian as it will throw our airforce into a logistic and training nightmare. Singapore has a habit of buying war-proven equipments, which therefore can conclude why F15 is chosen, and the Rafale is still a veri young and not proven system. I'm not surprise if Singapore goes for the Rafale if we are barredfrom accquiring the F-35, bcos by them the Rafale design would have been mature, tested, and comes with various kits, ammos, and upgrades.

This is also to answer to PLA2025's qns on why we need an armed forces. I can tell u this bluntly, NOBODY and exactly NOBODY owns ANYBODY a LIVING. Get this straight. In the eyes of countries there is only interest and never a committment. When the going is good, they are frenzs, when the going is Bad, they are fiends. Give u an example, during WW2, the British fled back to England leaving a small number of weapons and a collection of NZ, AUS, Malayan troops to hell it out against the armed to the teeth Japs, why? Bcos u are just a colony, their motherland more important, thus they will just say bye to u and leave u to die. The same logic is wat does Singapore have to ensure any power in the world to send their sons and daughters to sweat, bleed and die for u? Nothing. Thus, if Singapore does not have a strong forces, u will see a second Kuwait. Thus, every male citizen upon reaching the age of 18 in Singapore is expected to serve a 2.5 yrs training window and they are required to go back for refresher training till 40yrs old. For me, I am to say I finish the 2.5 yrs and I actually have fired real rounds and thrown a live grenade! :
Regarding ur qns why we need cutting edge weapons. Simple, these weapons are view as force multipliers, which means we use technologies to lever out with the huge arm forces of our neighbours. An example our airforce has literally, 2 times the assets of our neighbours, this is bcos in modern context, a strong air force can pack the most punch against an agressor Thus, Singapore maintains a huge fleet of F-16 especially the SEAD verison F-16(D). We also have quite a small yet well established defense industry. The Singapore Technologies(ST) is an example. Some of their works are like example Ultimax100 LMG, SAR-21 rifle, FH-2000 howitzers, MATADOR LAW, BIONIX IFV, AV-81 TERREX, Preserverance class LSD. These reduce our needs of for foreign arms.

 

[ReNeSiS]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Aloha.
Was searching for the electronics suite for the F-15T and chanced upon this site.

PLA - Singapore has had a history 53 yrs ago when we couldnt fend for our own land. It is a small country with uber limited natural resources can easily be overrun in a blitz without proper immediate reponse forces.

The mission of the armed forces is to deter any threats to her sovereignity and to ensure a swift and decisive victory if deterence fails.

This answers why the small island state spends so much on military technology.

Regarding the J10, its probably a legacy problem. Safety is a core value of the RSAF, thus making the F15 a prefered choice over the J10. This is not just about track records, but also about proper documentations, maintainence expertise and operational training that the customer gets. We are not only buying the hardware but also the service support

IMO since the infrastructural ties are already in place with da US there should be an expected reduction in transition time from setup to FOC of the F15 sqn in Singapore. = cost savings + safer ops

Anyway. after 9/11 there arose a greater need for C4I and network centricity. The advanced electrioncs suite that the f15 comes with certainly gives a major boost to future plans. (read:longbow )

Information technology is the way to go in the 21st century, efficient and accurate dissemination of data allows the personnel to make a more informed decision when pushing the button.

I know what im writing is really vague but i had to leave out offiicial words due to security reasons.

Anyone heard about the Eagle Wall?

" During one of the multilateral exercises with the US few years back, non of our fighters actually made it past the Eagle Wall. All were shot down (ACMI). The wall was unscarthed." -Anonymous

Air supremacy they say.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Anyone heard about the Eagle Wall?

" During one of the multilateral exercises with the US few years back, non of our fighters actually made it past the Eagle Wall. All were shot down (ACMI). The wall was unscarthed." -Anonymous

Air supremacy they say.

First, welcome to the forums.

Second - and with ref to above. The first reference I heard regarding "Eagle Wall" was from the 1st Gulf War. It referred to a specific defensive layer of aircraft that was managed by an AWACs.

You probably won't get too much detail about systems and techniques used though as there is an extraordinary amount of info that never gets into the public domain - so google is not your friend in this case.

 

[PLA2025]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

The choice for the F-15(E) over the J-10A is obvious I think.
1) the Singaporian air force is seeking for a multi-role fighter jet which is focused on carrying out ground strike missions. The J-10A is mainly a multirole fighter jet which has its strength in air combat and only limited air-to-ground capabilities.
2) The F-15 can carry more UGBs, LGBs and AGMs than the F-16 or the J-10 due to its larger airframe and more thrust.
3) Even if the J-10B would be ready to be delivered (which is still not in low-rate production) the Singaporian air force has F-16D in their inventory already. getting a similar plane is not required then.

and about the purpose of the military purpose of Singapore:
the last time Singapore suffered invasion was in WW2 when the Japanese army went in and butchered over 200.000(or more) people there. That's why China, Singapore and South Korea are keen to establish high capable military forces to prevent another bitter defeat by any possible wars. (admin: deleted as outside spirit of response needed)

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

The choice for the F-15(E) over the J-10A is obvious I think.

There is no way that a J-10A would be certified to use the full range of Singapores available weapons fits.

 

[pathfinder]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

how's the singapore F-15 performance&fire power compare to malaysia
SU-30MKM and Mig29.....

malaysia is highly interested for a squadron of F/A-18F super hornet to complement existing eight F/A-18D. other choice might be additional/2nd batch order of SU-30MKM.

 

[Lonewolf]

Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

As a Sporean, and on why the my gov choose the F15 over the other continental platform. I belive its also a question of longistics and compatibilities, pls correct me if i am wrong.

Our mech are used to US made aircraft and their systems, F16, F5, A4,.
same also goes for the pilots and the cockpit configurations.


I would believe munitions/systems used for F16 will be more conpateble with the F15 then a rafale or EuroF.

As a US allied country ( with a small USN supply base located on the island) , and if the buttons are really pushed, how can we expect US to supply us with rafale or euro fighter parts when it really comes down to it.

We already have training facilities in the US, if we had a continental aircraft would we need to open/negotiate another one in Euro. ( our airspace is not big enough to train our pilots propely ) and we prepared to pay the cost involved in doing so.

These are just my personal thoughts although I'm with the SAF not RSAF. I very sure these considerations played a very important role in the decsision to purchase the F15.

 

[guppy]

Eagle Wall?

My first post in this forum.

Eagle Wall?

Hmm...sounds familiar...

It is not invincible, you just got to know how to fight it.

Fight the pilot, not the platform. The best weapon system today still requires split second decisions by the operators. Lure the pilot into making an error, and then you get the opportunity to kill the confused, the crippled, and the singletons.

The Eagle Wall is a tactic. And no, it is neither defensive in posture or controlled by AWACs. In the USAF, the controllers are mostly enlisted personnel. Sometimes, they are called ABOs, sometimes weapon controllers. The tactic is always run by the flight leader, but supported by AWACs or GCI.

Kudos to Gary, who is very knowledgeable and kind enough to share his knowledge. It is obvious that you have a lot of experience in the defense business.

My opinion is that the Eagle is a poor investment by Singapore.

 

[HK_Thoughtful]

My first post in this forum.
My opinion is that the Eagle is a poor investment by Singapore.

I for one respect your opinion, however I was wondering if Singapore were to chose a different fighter over the Eagle, which would be the best choice? (Of course in your opinion). Not to sound confrontational or anything, but I think the Eagle is a reasonable choice for Singapore because of its ability to carry a diverse range of munitions and its combat record (regardless of the fact that most of the combat has been against 3rd or 2nd rate airforces).

 

[Big-E]

I think cost wise the F-16 Block 60 would be a better buy money wise than the EF-2000 Tr3. It's not like they don't operate the aircraft already, it gives them AESA and gives them a better selection of stand-off weapons. I'm not sure why they would want to jump to a totally foreign aircraft like EF. The F-15E uses APG-70, a very good radar but it's not AESA, just like CAPTOR.

 

[rossfrb_1]

I think cost wise the F-16 Block 60 would be a better buy money wise than the EF-2000 Tr3. It's not like they don't operate the aircraft already, it gives them AESA and gives them a better selection of stand-off weapons. I'm not sure why they would want to jump to a totally foreign aircraft like EF. The F-15E uses APG-70, a very good radar but it's not AESA, just like CAPTOR.

By all accounts the Singaporeans didn't buy a straight E model.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/09/singapores-rsaf-decides-to-fly-like-an-eagle/index.php
"....The F-15SG will be an advanced version of the U.S. Air Force's F-15E Strike Eagle, with minor customization to Singapore's specifications and the most up-to-date avionics available. According to Jane's Defense Weekly on February 23, 2006, the AN/APG-63v3 AESA radar will also be included, and there are rumours that a number of Israeli electronics and self-defense systems will be part of the F-15SG as well. Sniper XR surveillance & targeting pods will be added to Singapore's previous US equipment list, and the higher-thrust GE F110 engine used in many F-16s will be used instead of Pratt & Whitney's standard F100 that powers some F-16s and most F-15s...."

I don't know if the Singaporean F-16s use the GE F110 engine. If so then logistically great.

rb