Rafale, Eurofighters advertised to Libya

[merocaine]

Even tho you left out the worst offenders you are sadly right. The weapons sales to the developing world are a huge moral black spot. In the USA it was Bill Clinton who really propelled America into a huge arms merchant to the 3'rd world, a fact most Liberals here seem to have a hard time remembering. But by far it is Russia who leads in selling arms to the developing world, 2nd is France, and right behind them is America.

To be honest its only the Democracies I bother talking about, Russian and Chinese people dont really have the power to infulence or change there goverments. Although your right there actions are even more immmoral that ours.

If your talking about this forum then maybe youv been opening the wrong posts all the time. We talk about "real war" all the time, and when we dont then were usually talking about systems. The selling of weapons isn't all that repeated a topic.

I would dispute that, we talk about weapon systems alot, potential wars yeah, and sometimes even old wars but real current wars very rerely. Iraq, Afganistan, The Congo, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Chechneya, may have a thread here and there, but they are never discussed with the same level of detail devoted to say the bomb load of a navalised version of an F-35, or a hypotethical invasion of Tiawan.

Counter Insurgency/low tech/gurillia warfare, is the most common and deadly war situation in the world today, and as far as I can see it is under discussed on defencetalk, which IMO is a crying shame.

 

[contedicavour]

Wow we've gotten very far away from the thread's topic...
one way to try to guess who'll be winning orders soon from Libya is to follow the travels of key businessmen and politicians to Tripoli these days. BP is by far the most active petroleum company in Libya today, even more than Russian gas companies. France's Total is almost absent to date.
The highest ranking politician to visit has been Mr Blair, followed by mid-ranking Russian government officials. No French ministers so far.
So far I see Typhoons and MIG29SMT as the best positioned to win orders in Libya. The only thing I don't understand is that in theory Libya is not one of the areas where it's the UK who leads the consortium's export efforts... well anyway an order is an order, so be it

cheers

 

[radiosilence]

Wow we've gotten very far away from the thread's topic...
one way to try to guess who'll be winning orders soon from Libya is to follow the travels of key businessmen and politicians to Tripoli these days. BP is by far the most active petroleum company in Libya today, even more than Russian gas companies. France's Total is almost absent to date.
The highest ranking politician to visit has been Mr Blair, followed by mid-ranking Russian government officials. No French ministers so far.
So far I see Typhoons and MIG29SMT as the best positioned to win orders in Libya. The only thing I don't understand is that in theory Libya is not one of the areas where it's the UK who leads the consortium's export efforts... well anyway an order is an order, so be it

cheers

With a huge investment in Libya by BP( single largest exploration commitment) one has to protect their investment. This is where selling defence items comes in. They were reports during Blair's visit that the UK had agreed to sell missiles and air defense systems to Libya. A a good example of this is US-Saudi relationship. Having said all this, i would be very surprise of a possible sale of EF to Libya anytime soon.

 

[jaffo4011]

Wow we've gotten very far away from the thread's topic...
one way to try to guess who'll be winning orders soon from Libya is to follow the travels of key businessmen and politicians to Tripoli these days. BP is by far the most active petroleum company in Libya today, even more than Russian gas companies. France's Total is almost absent to date.
The highest ranking politician to visit has been Mr Blair, followed by mid-ranking Russian government officials. No French ministers so far.
So far I see Typhoons and MIG29SMT as the best positioned to win orders in Libya. The only thing I don't understand is that in theory Libya is not one of the areas where it's the UK who leads the consortium's export efforts... well anyway an order is an order, so be it

cheers

nicely back on track conte......i feared this thread was going to degenerate into another bnko/rich 'France vs usa' debate...

i agree with your summary of the situation.the us has too many prejudices to be a realistic supplier to Libya and Britain seems to be doing a good job of developing new ties with the Libyans.i think that the eurofighter is the most likely option for them unless it upsets the Saudis and their purchase of the typhoon....how well do they get on nowadays??

 

[Izzy1]

i agree with your summary of the situation.the us has too many prejudice to be a realistic supplier to Libya and Britain seems to be doing a goos job of developing new ties with the libyans.i think that the eurofighter is the most likely option for them unless it upsets the Saudis and their purchase of the typhoon....how well do they get on nowadays??

Saudi-Libyan relations are still in a state of flux. Saudi continually seek answers in regards to the alledged Libyan plot to assassinate then-Crown Prince Abdullah. From all accounts, the Libyan delegation to the recent Arab Conference in Riyadh were given a frosty reception.

BAE moved very quickly back into Libya once the sanctions were lifted, initially redeveloping Libya's civil aviation infrastructure. Rumours of a military deal have been emerging since early last year with Hawk 120 being offered.

Furthermore and linked to Saudi ironically, there have also been strong indications here that former Saudi Tornado ADVs would be soon in Libyan service. BAE have taken back at least 15 ADVs from the RSAF's 29 Squadron as part of the forthcoming Typhoon deal. They were never a popular platform in RSAF service and the fleet has relatively low flight hours and have received regular depot-level maintenance. They're in very good shape and perfect for Libya's need for an aircraft with good endurance patrol qualities. A very considerable stock of Sky Flash AAMs, spares and engines were also handed back as part of the deal. There is potential in that they could all be used as a sweetner for any future Libyan Typhoon order.

Saudi will get their Typhoons on time as well as a very handsome industrial offset package which aims to have Typhoon "kits" being built here. I doubt Riyadh would complain too much if Libya did get Typhoon also. The real looser - the RAF, who will no doubt have to wait even longer for their aircraft as they are again diverted for export.

 

[nero]

why buy expensive items

.


LIBYA has great & strong ties with pakistan & china !!


Therefore it would make more sense if LIBYA buys JF-17-THUNDER or

J-10-chengdu from CHINA !! that too at fraction of the cost of an EUROfighter !!!




.

 

[alexsa]

.


LIBYA has great & strong ties with pakistan & china !!


Therefore it would make more sense if LIBYA buys JF-17-THUNDER or

J-10-chengdu from CHINA !! that too at fraction of the cost of an EUROfighter !!!




.

You might want to flesh out these claim. Given the fact Libya is trying to expunge its previous reputation it would appear and rejoin the western community a shift in it focus on realtionships has occured. The fact that BP are returning to Libya after a 33 year absence is indicative of this change.

This deal is worth 900million in exploration and may see a doubling of the current 1.7million barrels a day out of existing fields. It has been suggested that very little of the coutntry has been fuly explored so the eventual increase in production could be a great deal higher. This has positive benifits to both Libya and investors and allows Libya funds to look at front line equipement notng their neighours are not investing in the cheap end of the market.

On this basis would you care to justify your comment.

 

[riksavage]

Blair’s recent visit to Libya has a lot to do with the fact he is credited as being a critical player in encouraging the country to come in from the cold, and reengage with the west. Along with Sierra Leone it was one of Blair’s real foreign policy successes. BAE et al, will automatically form part of any accompanying entourage and host meetings with Libyan defence ministers on the periphery of any government to government exchanges.

I guarantee BAE will come out og this with more orders, and not just for missiles and associated systems.

Nero - Why should they buy from China? Equipments poor quality, requires excessive maintanence and is a generation behind the latest systems now available in the west!

 

[Izzy1]

To be fair, it is only a matter of time before Sinopec and other Chinese oil companies arrive in Libya. Perhaps then we could see Beijing and Tripoli agreeing defence deals. But in the meantime, talking about buying European weapons is just another step for the Libyan regime in its efforts to legitimise itself after years in the cold.

 

[harryriedl]

BAE seems to be haveing a boom time for the time being. possible deal with libya talks with japanese heavy industry and large orders of RESETs with in the USA

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

To be honest its only the Democracies I bother talking about, Russian and Chinese people dont really have the power to infulence or change there goverments. Although your right there actions are even more immmoral that ours.

While i agree with the moral implications of arms sales to some pretty oppressive regimes in the past, I have to disagree on the realistic aplication of moral values. There is a paralell between this argument and the calls of hypocracy from some quaters that the US could critisise NK/Iran over a WMD programe when they have the most destructive capability in that reguard, which has moral but no realistic grounding.

The cold hard reality is that if we dont the Russians or Chinese will. Ofcource
in extreem cases when the proposed buyer is a clear threat or has a bad human rights record weapons embargo's should be installed. However simply refusing to sell arms to anyone who is not a true allie is not going to solve anything and is basicaly handing a market overto your competitors. Any democratic government has an obligation to act in the economic interest of its people, within reason. And denying your arms industry potential export markets because they can only sell to true allies on moral grounds achieves nothing accept paying the opportunity cost. On moral grounds i agree with you but in a realistic context i just dont see the point. At least with western weapons we have some controll over how they are used.

I would dispute that, we talk about weapon systems alot, potential wars yeah, and sometimes even old wars but real current wars very rerely. Iraq, Afganistan, The Congo, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Chechneya, may have a thread here and there, but they are never discussed with the same level of detail devoted to say the bomb load of a navalised version of an F-35, or a hypotethical invasion of Tiawan.

Counter Insurgency/low tech/gurillia warfare, is the most common and deadly war situation in the world today, and as far as I can see it is under discussed on defencetalk, which IMO is a crying shame.

This is a real shame i agree. The only current war that got some attention was the Isreli/lobonese war, probably because it envolved a first world power. All of the african conflicts at the moment dont get any mention, maybe a post here or post there. Even Iraq doesent get the attention it deserves. Perhaps this is because low intencity conflicts just arnet glamerous enough to get the supestar status of a Taiwan conflict.

 

[contedicavour]

Furthermore and linked to Saudi ironically, there have also been strong indications here that former Saudi Tornado ADVs would be soon in Libyan service. BAE have taken back at least 15 ADVs from the RSAF's 29 Squadron as part of the forthcoming Typhoon deal. They were never a popular platform in RSAF service and the fleet has relatively low flight hours and have received regular depot-level maintenance. They're in very good shape and perfect for Libya's need for an aircraft with good endurance patrol qualities. A very considerable stock of Sky Flash AAMs, spares and engines were also handed back as part of the deal. There is potential in that they could all be used as a sweetner for any future Libyan Typhoon order.
.

Very interesting this potential news on Tornado ADVs. They would be perfectly suited for long combat air patrols over the central Mediterranean, which require very large autonomy. In dogfights the ADVs were never the best suited planes, but Libya needs mostly good assets with which to patrol its huge airspace.
Besides, any new order of Typhoons would allow for delivery around 2010-12 earliest (unless consortium countries are willing to furter delay deliveries of planes earmarked for their armed forces) and having something ready ASAP as a stopgap measure would be a good idea vs Russian MIG29SMTs who could be delivered faster.

cheers

PS : oh, and I would prefer having Sky flashes launched against me rather than Meteor !! Sky flash is good old semi-active BVR

 

[swerve]

...
PS : oh, and I would prefer having Sky flashes launched against me rather than Meteor !! Sky flash is good old semi-active BVR

Meteor won't be available until at least 2012 anyway. RAF Tornados use AMRAAM nowadays, but for Libya to get that would mean dealing with the USA.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Meteor won't be available until at least 2012 anyway. RAF Tornados use AMRAAM nowadays, but for Libya to get that would mean dealing with the USA.

And AIM 120D will have similar range to METEOR anyway, in the ballpark i mean. And i guess the UK could sell some older stocks of AIM 120A/B.

 

[swerve]

... And i guess the UK could sell some older stocks of AIM 120A/B.

Still means dealing with the USA. You know the restrictions the USA places on its weapons sales: any selling on needs their permission.

 

[contedicavour]

Still means dealing with the USA. You know the restrictions the USA places on its weapons sales: any selling on needs their permission.

Yep the only BVR missiles that the UK could give to Libya in the meanwhile are the semi-active Sky Flash. Libya would of course prefer MIG29SMT with AA-12 and AA-11, but if the deal is Tornado ADV+Sky Flash now, and Typhoon with Meteor in 5 years, then it might work.

cheers