R-77 question

[hellfire]

Wait a second I tought R-37 was cancelled project in favor of Indo-Russian codevelopment of KS-172.

well the production status of R-37 remains a mystery it was used by the russians mig 31 .KS-172 comes in two versions the missile employs an active radar seeker and inertial midcourse
guidance. Two configurations are known, with and without a booster pack. With the booster
the missile is claimed to achieve a range of 215 NMI, without 160 NMI. Cited seeker
performance is similar to the R-37. While the R-172 is less mature than the R-37, India has
recently negotiated an arrangement to fund final development and licence produce the
weapon, not unlike the extant deal to licence the Yakhont as the BrahMos.The R-172, was previously
designated as KS-172

 

[Aussie Digger]

According to Andrew McLaughlin, HORNETS DOWN UNDER, Phantom Media, Canberra, 2005, The RAAF acquired a batch of AIM-120C-5s in 2004. I can't find any info though as to whether it has now moved on to the D.

Cheers

I'm pretty sure the "D" isn't in-service anywhere yet and is still under development.

In any case, RAAF is reportedly moving up to the C-7 variant, with the weapons package for the Super Hornets.

As to Andrew Maclachlan. Bah! I heard he had to give most of those books away didn't he????

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

But that type of very long range AA combat also relies on sensors. Apart from being an AWACS killer i doubt a 150km+ range missile would be mutch of a threat to an F22 or F35, sinse these platforms would not be detected at anyware near these ranges, and if AD's correct the APG 79 radar can possibly destrory enemy radars at 150km+, so how are those missiles going to be targeted with no eyes?

sorry this sounds weird, i cant remember which post i was responding to.

 

[rjmaz1]

Ozzy Blizzard thats spot on.

Say you had an F-22 against the F-35 with the F-35 simulating say an Enemy aircraft.

The F-22 would be lucky to detect the F-35 at more than 50 miles away even with its powerful radar. The F-35 would be lucky to detect the F-22 at half that distance a small 25 miles away.

So as the future enemy aircraft will see significant reductions in radar cross section engagement ranges will reduce dramatically. There will be no need for increasing the range over the current AMRAAM models as they are more than good enough.

A large missile would rarely get used in combat say an F-14 detected an aircraft 30 miles away and it had an AMRAAM and Phoenix missile, the F-14 would definitely fire the AMRAAM.

The only use for a long range missile would be to destroy enemy AWAC's. Currently the F-22 would be able to take out AWAC's with AMRAAMs with ease. As the power of enemy AWAC's will improve dramatically in the next decade then the ability to detect the F-22 at greater range will increase.

Right now the F-22 and soon to be JSF wont need a longer range weapon

 

[Todjaeger]

Ozzy Blizzard thats spot on.

Say you had an F-22 against the F-35 with the F-35 simulating say an Enemy aircraft.

The F-22 would be lucky to detect the F-35 at more than 50 miles away even with its powerful radar. The F-35 would be lucky to detect the F-22 at half that distance a small 25 miles away.

So as the future enemy aircraft will see significant reductions in radar cross section engagement ranges will reduce dramatically. There will be no need for increasing the range over the current AMRAAM models as they are more than good enough.

A large missile would rarely get used in combat say an F-14 detected an aircraft 30 miles away and it had an AMRAAM and Phoenix missile, the F-14 would definitely fire the AMRAAM.

The only use for a long range missile would be to destroy enemy AWAC's. Currently the F-22 would be able to take out AWAC's with AMRAAMs with ease. As the power of enemy AWAC's will improve dramatically in the next decade then the ability to detect the F-22 at greater range will increase.

Right now the F-22 and soon to be JSF wont need a longer range weapon

As more advanced aircraft field reduced RCS, then yes, engagement ranges between 5th Gen will be reduced, possibly to WVR. BVR missles are still important, because they can allow attacks against non-stealthy aircraft. A long-range interception strike against AAR, or AEW aircraft for instance. Few air forces however will be fielding 5th Gen aircraft for the time being, so longer range missiles can certainly be used against less advanced opponents.

As for the example of the F-14 using either AMRAAM or Phoenix at 30 miles, it would use the Phoenix. Part of the reason the F-14 was retired was that without overhauling the avionics, the AMRAAM couldn't be integrated onto it. It was restricted to using Sidewinders, Sparrows and Phoenix. Also I believe the Phoenix could reach out to something like 100 miles at max range. Although the vaunted accuracy was found to wanted a little when an F-14 fired upon a MiG-29 (I think, might have been MiG-25) over Iraq and missed. Trying to remember when this occurred, sometime between 1998 & GW2 IIRC.

-Cheers

 

[qwerty223]

But that type of very long range AA combat also relies on sensors. Apart from being an AWACS killer i doubt a 150km+ range missile would be mutch of a threat to an F22 or F35, sinse these platforms would not be detected at anyware near these ranges, and if AD's correct the APG 79 radar can possibly destrory enemy radars at 150km+, so how are those missiles going to be targeted with no eyes?

sorry this sounds weird, i cant remember which post i was responding to.

Well, from my knowledge, for example, the Russians use heat seeker, anti radiation seeker, and other various kind of unguided seeker to outcome their shortage.

And regarding the superior radar part, I have a doubt here, can anyone help me to solve it?

If let say F/A-22 or F-35 have a radar range of 150km towards a m2 target, while their counter part has range of 100~120km. In a head to head condition, a high speed approach, even F/A-22 side 1st to detect, before she can do anything, she will ran into her enemy's detection radius. In addition, as she cannot span the missile range to limit, she had no choice but to force herself into the enemy's detection radius. Thus, if both side's detection range doesn't have a significant diff, arm with missiles that have same range, radar and missiles will not be the factor of the competition.

Anyone have the same idea here?

 

[Todjaeger]

Well, from my knowledge, for example, the Russians use heat seeker, anti radiation seeker, and other various kind of unguided seeker to outcome their shortage.

And regarding the superior radar part, I have a doubt here, can anyone help me to solve it?

If let say F/A-22 or F-35 have a radar range of 150km towards a m2 target, while their counter part has range of 100~120km. In a head to head condition, a high speed approach, even F/A-22 side 1st to detect, before she can do anything, she will ran into her enemy's detection radius. In addition, as she cannot span the missile range to limit, she had no choice but to force herself into the enemy's detection radius. Thus, if both side's detection range doesn't have a significant diff, arm with missiles that have same range, radar and missiles will not be the factor of the competition.

Anyone have the same idea here?

I think I understand what your question/idea is, so I'll have a go at it.

If I'm getting this correctly, there are a couple of points that need to be made. The radar range of an aircraft isn't it's absolute detection range. By that, I mean the radar doesn't automatically detect anything within the given range.

For example suppose, as above, Aircraft 1 (F-22) does have a radar range of 150km. The F-22 can detect Aircraft 2 (regular aircraft) ahead of it at 149km away. Now suppose Aircraft 2 has a slightly inferior radar, one with a range of 120km. That would allow Aircraft 2 to detect a regular aircraft that is 119km away.

However, the F-22 (and F-35, and a few others) is a LO (low observable) aircraft, designed to have a small RCS (Radar Cross Section). What this means, is that when a radar signal strikes a LO aircraft, the returning signal which lets the radar system know something is there, is much smaller than the object (aircraft) would seem. What this means, is that in order for a fighter-sized LO aircraft to be detected, it has to be considerably closer to the emitting radar than a similar sized, but non-LO aircraft.

Given that virtually everything about LO, and LO detection is classified, I don't have any real numbers to quote. As a result, I'll just use some arbitrary numbers I've selected to illustrate my point.

Take Aircraft 2 from above, it can detect a normal aircraft at 120km. But due to the LO features on an F-22, it won't detect an F-22 until it's within perhaps 48km. If Aircraft 2 doesn't have LO features, then there is roughly a 100km difference in range, where the F-22 knows where Aircraft 2 is, but Aircraft 2 doesn't know where the F-22 is.

Basically what that means is, that the LO features can dramatically impact detection range. A better example is two different aircraft, one LO, the other normal. Both equipped with the exact same radar. The LO aircraft will detect the non-LO aircraft first normally. This could allow the LO aircraft to launch an attack on the non-LO aircraft without warning.

Hope this helps answer your question.

-Cheers

 

[qwerty223]

I think I understand what your question/idea is, so I'll have a go at it.

Basically what that means is, that the LO features can dramatically impact detection range. A better example is two different aircraft, one LO, the other normal. Both equipped with the exact same radar. The LO aircraft will detect the non-LO aircraft first normally. This could allow the LO aircraft to launch an attack on the non-LO aircraft without warning.

Hope this helps answer your question.

-Cheers

Thanks!
Anyhow, I am aware of stealth factor, so i mention "have a radar range of 150km towards a m2 target". Maybe there is a failure in my English, to clarify, the "m2" here is referring to a target sized 2~5m2 in the range of around 120km~150km. This is from both sides manufacture claim. F/A-22 was to believed to have a 150km detection range towards a 2m2 target, while russian zhuk series claims to have 120km for 5m2 target detection.

just my 2 cents