Questions/Info and Comparative analysis between JF-17 and MiG-33

[Gollevainen]

Looking to debate Gollevainen? Im going to call your bluff here

Where are those silly chinese comparisions?. If you found them give me their links and lets see if their silly or not

Now you totaly missinturped me. I never ment anything personal or that i would like to challenge you. I merely pointed out that i've never seen thread of that kind. of those silly comparison threads...i've been mod in sinodefence forum for half year now and thrust me there has been lots of them (like J-11 vs. Su-27, or J-10 vs F-16, or the faforite of all FC-1 vs. LCA). Nowadays i simply deletes them if they appera becouse they are at the end very silly and pointless.

You said
"For me, the FC-1 has always looked and appeared to be very similar with the Taiwanese IDF. I'm not saying that those two planes are identical, just that they have some similar features"

And
"Well it's my lay obinion (i did say "to my EYES")"

Where was performance mentioned there. It looks like your trying to compare them visually to me and i would imagine the structure of the comment to a lot of other people?. Or you going to change your statement half way? John kerry Sir?

Again i never called any depate, just wondered aloud why no one else have done it. I'm no aircraft design expert and therefore i wont going to jump in pointless argument becouse i simply don't have much to said on the matter.

But in most forums this topic is banned because it insights nationalism.
eg. FC-1 vs LCA - Rafale vs EF - MFI vs F-22 - Tu-160 vs B-1

You are right, tough in chinas case (by meaning that becouse my experiences limits to china, i'm sure all others behaive as well) every comparison thread were one of the side is chinese plane tend to be very nationalistic and therefore, like i said very silly.

So forget the evident grunch against me and let us all enjoy posting here without any stress...ok?

 

[chinawhite]

Because ANYBODY can go in and CHANGE it to THEIR OWN liking. It is good source of "information" but not reliable information. Their external links area, etc. may not be as unreliable because external links are not wiki based.

If anyone could go and write i wikipedia article I would already have a few under my belt. The problem is (be surprised) it is moderated. And if any section was under debate for information it would have a sign stating so and a conversation page where people disagree over information. You are right about anyone being able to chnage it, But the person has to tone down his article and stop ranting. Mine one got stop simply because it was disputed information

If i was debating a sensitive topic like border conflicts or polictal debate wikipedia is biased to a certain degree and is not a reliable source. But the figures i used are based on information which i verifed on several sources besides wikipedia. But that was after i used wikipedia so wikipedia was my primary source

WebMaster, What is a source?.

 

[chinawhite]

I use Kanwa as a source for certain news. Things that are related to Russian imports to China or stuff Russians are offering to China.

The only thing i trust is information that has being widely published and which is not over BS. New Janes or Kanwa and other defense publications with up to date or "Firsts". Sites like Global or FAS are outdated but they wait to make articles when more information is avabile instead of Janes which act like the daily journal and need to get information out so people would come to look

Its called sensationalized journalism. They need to get them out so headlines like Super J-10 Powerful 3D-TVC upgraded engine attracts customers while they are satisfied with the money they also dont have to worry because they don't lie they just stretch it. With Kanwa I think it was a advistiment ploy to let people know they were there and i think it worked. They have tone down their comments

awfully biased of you to assume that I do not.

Weren't you the one which gave me some information about the J-10 from on-line conversations from supposed CAC engineers?. I would think that your engineers weren't engineers but lower down the food chain. Everyone knows people in china in the government sector progress on by touting the party line. And I wouldn't think any chinese (sorry for sterotyping) would risk their jobs and some jail time just to talk to on-line chinese forum goers to give the whos who of chinas defense projects

If you go around and find me in forums i dont usually use a source but my actual prior knowledge. If someone tries to call me out on some infromation than i normally use a source. But when i debate i have no worries because all that i know comes from a source or another

read some of my posts regarding, I said everywhere that super J-10 is Russian propoganda

I think you were the one which was posting the picture of the two engine fighter which is said to be built by CAC

 

[chinawhite]

Gollevainen you want me to ignore you i will.:unknown

Please dont delete this comment as i dont have the PM function as yet

 

[Gollevainen]

I dont want to ignore me, but treat me like we have no past at all together, it would be best for everyone...I have tryed to do the same...

 

[tphuang]

The only thing i trust is information that has being widely published and which is not over BS. New Janes or Kanwa and other defense publications with up to date or "Firsts". Sites like Global or FAS are outdated but they wait to make articles when more information is avabile instead of Janes which act like the daily journal and need to get information out so people would come to look

Again, if it's news from an airshow or officially released news or interviews with the companies in question, I would consider these news to be reliable. Global and FAS are not only outdated, but wrong. I've seen way too many news on FAS that's just false. For example, they claim the Russians offered china a phased array radar for J-10, but that never happened. JDW has some credibility, or else people would not be paying so much money for it.

Its called sensationalized journalism. They need to get them out so headlines like Super J-10 Powerful 3D-TVC upgraded engine attracts customers while they are satisfied with the money they also dont have to worry because they don't lie they just stretch it. With Kanwa I think it was a advistiment ploy to let people know they were there and i think it worked. They have tone down their comments

Kanwa got a lot of stuff right too. It was the first to discover that J-10 was using 1473. Again, you have to pick your poison. Judge by yourself which news is valid. Some articles are obvious guesses. Once you read enough kanwa articles, you would have an idea or which is which. As I said, the Russians said in the interview that AL-31FN-M1 is the new standard for FN. You don't think they would be so stupid, that they would have no clue what they just exported, do you?

There are people on these forums who really do talk like they know what they are talking about. It's easy to tell who they are.

Weren't you the one which gave me some information about the J-10 from on-line conversations from supposed CAC engineers?. I would think that your engineers weren't engineers but lower down the food chain. Everyone knows people in china in the government sector progress on by touting the party line. And I wouldn't think any chinese (sorry for sterotyping) would risk their jobs and some jail time just to talk to on-line chinese forum goers to give the whos who of chinas defense projects

If you go around and find me in forums i dont usually use a source but my actual prior knowledge. If someone tries to call me out on some infromation than i normally use a source. But when i debate i have no worries because all that i know comes from a source or another

I think you were the one which was posting the picture of the two engine fighter which is said to be built by CAC

I don't remember this part about two engine fighter to be built by CAC. I might have. I just put some rumours out there. It's up to other people whether they choose to believe it or not. There is nothing wrong with a little speculation here and there.

 

[chinawhite]

Global and FAS are not only outdated, but wrong. I've seen way too many news on FAS that's just false. For example, they claim the Russians offered china a phased array radar for J-10, but that never happened. JDW has some credibility, or else people would not be paying so much money for it.

Zhemchug?. Isn't that a phased array radar? That or the Panda

Im pretty sure the russians offered that some time ago. While the RnD cost im sure of. FAS is outdated while Global waits until enough information is out before they update a section instead of having alrets when rumours start flying. FAS was once the best site on the internet unitl it stopped updating. The american information and most of the russian information is correct but their chiense section is kind of outdated and wrong but any information about america or russia and this site is the best out there

Janes has a lot of creditbility the books they publish but they are starting to write more articles based on rumours and such. Its like a game of chiense whispers. They might say the write information and use words like maybe, possibly or rumoured to but then its passed on like a fact or for certain. Thats the problem with Janes

Kanwa got a lot of stuff right too. It was the first to discover that J-10 was using 1473. Again, you have to pick your poison.

LoL. Heres what im talking about. They wrote this article on complete speculation

J10A NO LONGER A FAVORITE OF PLA AIR FORCE?
"Multiple Moscow-based sources from the Russian military industry claim that China is negotiating with Russia on the purchase of xxx RD93 turbofan engines for the production of FC1/JF17 fighters. Meanwhile, China is also considering importing xxx AL31FN turbofan engines for its J10A production line. There has been new suspicion among Western military observers whether China is going to downsize the production of J10A and to turn to produce more FC1 fighters to replace the huge retiring J7 fleet of PLA Air Force (PLAAF)."

Uncomfirmed information just to fill the space spreading rumours which lead to assumtions that lead to speculations which lead to ignorance. Do you know why i hate Kanwa, It was about the rafale thing. Some indian memebers got a hold of this article and pasted it over a lot of forums then had a LCA glorification thread underneath. Not in this forum though. Just to make a few dollars they publsih BS like that? creditble?

There are people on these forums who really do talk like they know what they are talking about. It's easy to tell who they are.

Only met some in other forums but they told me their military background and where they served and then it became clear that they knew what they were talking about. Im conservative about who to believe on the internet. Some people brag about serving but dont have a clue what their talking about. And some people that haven't served know more than people which have. If you want to meet someone i'll give you a link to his blogging.

There is nothing wrong with a little speculation here and there.

But if you base most of your thought on specualtion than thats not spectualtion thats spreading BS, Not that im talking about you or anyone i've met

 

[tphuang]

Zhemchug?. Isn't that a phased array radar? That or the Panda

Im pretty sure the russians offered that some time ago. While the RnD cost im sure of. FAS is outdated while Global waits until enough information is out before they update a section instead of having alrets when rumours start flying. FAS was once the best site on the internet unitl it stopped updating. The american information and most of the russian information is correct but their chiense section is kind of outdated and wrong but any information about america or russia and this site is the best out there

That's the point. Zhemchug is not a phased array radar. They got it all mixed up with Zhuk-mfe.

Janes has a lot of creditbility the books they publish but they are starting to write more articles based on rumours and such. Its like a game of chiense whispers. They might say the write information and use words like maybe, possibly or rumoured to but then its passed on like a fact or for certain. Thats the problem with Janes

As I said, you pick and choose what to believe in. Some stuff is obvious speculation and very easy to dismiss. Other stuff is less likely to be wrong. Stuff like news from an airshow is most likely true.

LoL. Heres what im talking about. They wrote this article on complete speculation

J10A NO LONGER A FAVORITE OF PLA AIR FORCE?
"Multiple Moscow-based sources from the Russian military industry claim that China is negotiating with Russia on the purchase of xxx RD93 turbofan engines for the production of FC1/JF17 fighters. Meanwhile, China is also considering importing xxx AL31FN turbofan engines for its J10A production line. There has been new suspicion among Western military observers whether China is going to downsize the production of J10A and to turn to produce more FC1 fighters to replace the huge retiring J7 fleet of PLA Air Force (PLAAF)."

It was clear right from the start that this news was based on speculation. I never believed it, but there are news from kanwa that is also valid. Again, you pick what you believe in. That's better than wikipedia.

Uncomfirmed information just to fill the space spreading rumours which lead to assumtions that lead to speculations which lead to ignorance. Do you know why i hate Kanwa, It was about the rafale thing. Some indian memebers got a hold of this article and pasted it over a lot of forums then had a LCA glorification thread underneath. Not in this forum though. Just to make a few dollars they publsih BS like that? creditble?

Only met some in other forums but they told me their military background and where they served and then it became clear that they knew what they were talking about. Im conservative about who to believe on the internet. Some people brag about serving but dont have a clue what their talking about. And some people that haven't served know more than people which have. If you want to meet someone i'll give you a link to his blogging.

sure, send them to me. I'd love to read from people who really know what they are talking about.

But if you base most of your thought on specualtion than thats not spectualtion thats spreading BS, Not that im talking about you or anyone i've met

If I posted anything like twin-engined photo from CAC, it would've been something I found in another forum. These kind of stuff spread like flies on Chinese forums. It would eventually find its way whether I choose to post or not. There are a lot of "J-XX" pictures that people post. We know ahead of time that it's fake, but people will still post it.

 

[Gollevainen]

Only met some in other forums but they told me their military background and where they served and then it became clear that they knew what they were talking about. Im conservative about who to believe on the internet. Some people brag about serving but dont have a clue what their talking about. And some people that haven't served know more than people which have. If you want to meet someone i'll give you a link to his blogging.

I know this is going very oftopic but I just cannot keep out from it. I'm not sure who do you mean ( ) but as a serviceman myself, this additue makes me wonder. I have strong respect to anyone ever served in any military regardless of it's contest and length. I never have meet a serviceman who suddenly think they know everything, nor saying so. You see the military disipline usually remains in those guys and they have far wider and different wievs to certain aspects of military than any 15-16 years old armchair general. But best thing for those guys is that unlike teenage warmongers, they have something more to give than just information aquired from other internet forums and in best cases from books and respectfull military publications. Do you know what it is? Experience, actual knowhow of those systems and weapons that those teenagers like to so much brag about.

The great thing in militaryforums like the defencetalk, is that us can meet each others and change experiences and all those yet to do military service (i assume that most of the youngster do it)can learn so much about things that wouldn't be othervice impossiple.

This kind of attidue migt well be inturperated as a offence to those who have served. I would be very pissed if you first sacrifice enourmos time to your country and then some kid come along and says you are full of crab...imagine how those been in wars might think of this kind of talks...but I want to belive that this all is just misunderstanding and as a vise kid you know and respect others sacrifise and input? I mean wasen't there something similar mentioned in the forum rules?

But this is way oftopic, Mods, i apologizes for it and if this end up starting some flames, I'll take the heat.

 

[webmaster]

:nono Folks, lets not get personal and keep the topic in mind. And I would appreciate if old ass-rubbing from another forum does not infiltrate in here as well. Lets keep it as professional and to the point as possible.

 

[chinawhite]

Gollevainen,

Dont mind me but im going to ignore you like i did and still am doing in another forum. Good day :unknown

That's the point. Zhemchug is not a phased array radar. They got it all mixed up with Zhuk-mfe.

I am sure they offered the Pero/panda/Zhuk-MFE(MSF?) to china for the J-10 project. While there was another radar also offered, Solak(?). I forget the spelling but its a down graded Su-27 variant radar offered for the J-10. So phased array radar is a big ok for me.

Again, you pick what you believe in. That's better than wikipedia.

Wikipedia does not throw speculation in the air. The articles i refered you to has enough creditble sources to outweigh the bad bits(their are none for my articles). Now do you agree that the links i provided show almost no bias or mis-judged information?. I verify everything i link or quote from from at least 2 sources and normaly three. And the wikipedia article i used several sources after i finished to confirm the information.

tphuang, I think you are under the impression that kanwa is considered a legit source of information?. Ask crobato, Tam or any other person at China-defense or someone else in general and ask what creditbility Kanwa holds. These are china watchers, They'll have a lot more experience in this type of matter than me or you. Kanwa was run by one chiense guy and his wife one year ago in canada. Im not sure of their network or sources but i would think they are not global physically but global digitally. I imagine they scan chinese forums for their informaiton and pictures. Second hand information.

And Janes does not get all their information by themselves but wondering jorunalist that do a article and than sell it to Janes. Im not sure the phase they refer to them but you get the point of this dont you?

sure, send them to me. I'd love to read from people who really know what they are talking about

No, You come to them.: . Im going to give you links to their writings outside of this forum.

ch1466 at abovetopsecret.com Links to his work down below

[ Admin Edit: NO links to EXTERNAL forums. Read the rules: www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php ]

intelgurl, Works with Skunk works or some american black project. Not active anymore after someone acussed her of giving away american secrets on-line

Theres a lot more people at ATS but these are the most easily to get. Anyway some people really know what their talking about in fields which require the common person has trouble understanding

If I posted anything like twin-engined photo from CAC, it would've been something I found in another forum.

Huh?. So your the one spreading this?. Next time you make a topic corrrectly label them as CGI

 

[pshamim]

Not sticking to the topic. Please get back to it if you have any further information.