presence of PLAN in Gawadar

lakhani

New Member
I have read somewhere before that this will happen and that a chinese naval base is to be based in Gwader to protect vital supply routes to western china , i think this would be a great move both PN and PLAN would work together very well and would improve both navy's projection capibilitys

Does anyone else have a view on this plan , exactly what is to be stationed there is open for debate.
 

corsair7772

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lakhani, id prefer if youd give links before letting this discussion continue. Try to get the news links.
 

lakhani

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corsair7772 said:
lakhani, id prefer if youd give links before letting this discussion continue. Try to get the news links.
that's what I want to get through this forum.I want to confirm over here whether it is true or not.I have read this in different forums but still unable to find some links.And if you have read my words carefully , I want to know some trustable knowledge about this.
 

lakhani

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Officials say Gwadar will only be used for commercial purposes. But Newsweek magazine last week quoted US and Indian analysts as saying they believed Pakistan had given China a nod to use it as a port of call for the Chinese navy that would give Beijing the ability to monitor Middle East oil routes.

source:http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/mar2005-daily/31-03-2005/main/main5.htm

A Chinese naval presence there would give China a strategic edge in the Gulf area. But not to worry, says the admiral. There is no cause for concern. The Indian Navy is being built up and is quite capable of looking after itself. He is keen that his navy be a part of the US-led eleven nation Proliferation Security Initiative formed to counter the spread of WMDs

source:http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20041128.htm

Secondly, China gets a naval outpost in the Arabian Sea to ensure its energy supplies in the future with greater strategic depth.

source:the news

and provide the Pakistan Navy with a relatively safe rear base, not within easy reach of the Indian Navy and Air Force, from which it could operate against the Indian Navy in the case of another war between the two countries. The Chinese interest in assisting Pakistan in this project is due to their desire to strengthen the capability of the Pakistan Navy against the Indian and to have base facilities for their own naval ships when they visit the Gulf region. Under the agreement for Chinese assistance, the Pakistani military was also reported to have permitted the Chinese military intelligence to set up a listening post at Gwadar to monitor the movement of US naval ships in the Gulf region similar to the listening post which the Myanmar’s military regime has allowed the Chinese to set up on the CoCo Islands.

source:http://www.rantburg.com/jMailer.asp?ID=32598
 

lakhani

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The Chinese Navy is growing, and expanding its reach in Asia to secure oil and gas supplies.
By Melinda Liu
Newsweek International

March 28 issue - The new port of Gwadar will be unveiled April 6 as the "Dubai of Pakistan," even if it lacks the theme-park glitz of the Gulf's fantasy city. The point, say Chinese officials, who bankrolled 80 percent of the $248 million project, is that this new deepwater cargo port is "strictly commercial." But hawks in Washington and New Delhi believe Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has given Beijing the nod to use Gwadar as a port of call for the Chinese Navy. "Gwadar's a strategic location, just 400 kilometers from the Strait of Hormuz," says William Triplett III, a Washington-based conservative analyst who warns Gwadar will become a Chinese naval base "on little cat feet."
Alarm bells are ringing in Washington, where some see a pattern in Beijing's naval build-up, combined with a foreign-port building spree and efforts to secure maritime oil-transport routes. An internal report circulated among Pentagon officials late last year says Beijing is assembling a "string of pearls"—including ports, listening posts and naval agreements from Pakistan to Bangladesh to Burma—to protect its fragile oil-supply routes. Gwadar is critical, because it would provide the Chinese a listening post for monitoring ship traffic to and from the oil-rich Middle East, according to the report, which asserts that China is building up naval power at maritime "chokepoints... to deter the potential disruption of energy supplies from potential threats, including the U.S. Navy." China's naval outreach program is of concern to New Delhi, too, and was an underlying theme during U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's visit to India last week.
Until a few years ago, China's hunt for energy resources was confined largely to the economic sphere, spearheaded by its state-owned oil and gas firms. But Chinese officials came to see U.S.-led conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq as wars over oil, just as its own oil demands were booming. Two years ago China surpassed Japan as the world's second biggest oil importer, after the United States. Now crude-oil prices are hitting record highs, topping $57 a barrel last week, amid warnings from strategists of a coming "energy cold war." What began as a commercial rivalry for oil supplies engaging the United States, Japan and China now seems poised "to spill over into the political and military spheres," according to Chietigj Bajpaee, a researcher for Civic Exchange, a Hong Kong think tank. In the event of conflict over Taiwan, say mainland strategists, Beijing should expect the United States to try to starve China of oil with a naval blockade.

China is now lavishing funds on its Navy, long a neglected arm of the military services. Since George W. Bush took office, China has been building up its fleet of amphibious assault ships and submarines, and last December launched its first in a new class of nuclear subs, years earlier than anticipated by U.S. intelligence. In November, Japan chased a Chinese sub out of its territorial waters, near a disputed and gas-rich area of the East China Sea. Almost as soon as Beijing apologized for that incident, a Chinese research vessel intruded into Japanese waters, apparently surveying the seabed for oil and gas deposits.

Meanwhile, India has pursued closer military contacts with the United States, and last year issued a new naval doctrine stressing the need to protect energy routes and respond to Beijing's inroads in the Arabian Sea. Ziad Haider, an analyst at the Henry L. Stimson Center think tank in Washington, says the port at Gwadar could monitor U.S. naval activity in the Gulf, Indian naval activity in the Arabian Sea and future U.S.-Indian maritime cooperation in the Indian Ocean. Gwadar may not be a full-fledged Chinese naval base, says Haider, "but it could facilitate a [Chinese] naval presence."

China also helped build the Chittagong port in Bangladesh where, says the Pentagon report, Beijing is "seeking much more extensive naval and commercial access." Beijing is even discussing a deal with Phnom Penh that would provide Chinese patrol boats and naval training to Cambodia. The Pentagon report puts far more stress on the billions of dollars in military aid China has provided the junta in Myanmar "to support a de facto military alliance." China has helped build several ports, road and rail links from the Chinese province of Yunnan to the Bay of Bengal, and a listening post on Myanmar's Coco Islands to monitor sea traffic.

Myanmar is well positioned for policing the chokepoint that concerns Beijing most: the Malacca Strait. Eighty percent of China's energy supplies pass through this pirate-infested waterway, which is 1,000 kilometers long but only 2.4 kilometers wide at its narrowest point. Last year pirate attacks in the area left more than 400 ship-crew members dead, injured, taken hostage or missing. Less than a year ago, Chinese counterterrorism forces conducted the first exercise simulating the rescue of an oil tanker from attackers.

Another solution may lie in the Isthmus of Kra, a neck of land linking Thailand's north and south. Thai and Chinese authorities have discussed building a canal across the isthmus, which would allow oil tankers from the Middle East to bypass the Malacca Strait. This "Asian Panama Canal" carries a price tag somewhere between $20 billion and $28 billion, and Washington is watching its development closely. "We know [the Chinese] are looking at a variety of things with regard to the security of the Malacca Strait," says a State Department official. "We have a particular interest that these proposals are not exclusionary or against our interests."

Last month Thai authorities revived an alternate plan for a $700 million Kra oil pipeline and refinery, in which Chinese firms have been invited to participate. Bangkok will tread cautiously, says Paitoon Sayswang, an adviser to Thailand's Senate, because "Thais don't want to take on the risk of a turf battle between China and America." No Asian state does. But if they stand on an oil-supply route, there may be no way to avoid the struggle.

With Stephen Glain in Washington and bureau reports

© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.

source:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7243349/site/newsweek
 

SABRE

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It is true that China is going to have a joint naval base with Pakistan.

The Gwadar plan was actualy laid down by Russians. They wanted a opening in the south to the Arabian sea so they could extract their oil from central Asia & export it to both East Asia & Europe. But since they lost in Afghanistan, failed to reach Balochistan as well as start a revolt there & pull out its troops after heavy losses in Air & on ground the Russian plan was no longer of any use, specialy when USSR broke up & central Asian Russian states gained their independence.
Later some how that plan reached into the hands of Chinese. Some say they bought it others say they stole it. China saw interests of their own in the port

1) they can protect their oil supply route from ME
2) they can keep an eye on US navy
3) they can deploy their navy near Westen India
4) threaten oil trade route of its enemies

Incase of war, China believed that, USnavy was capable of stopping their oil supply from ME, hence by deploying its navy on the route China can prevent such a move as well as stop supplu to Tiwan & Japan as well. PS with stand off with India, a naval deployment in near their western sea China could pressureize India PS they would have great support from PN there as well.

During Clinton era both India & US saw a great threat in the port but since Clinton had screwed up US-Pakistan relations, Pakistan dint care & singed the deal. For Pakistan, they were getting Naval support of China, they knew that world would need to extract oil & gas from central Asia & since there is no sea in Central Aisa it would have to be done either through Pakistan or Iran. Since Iran has screwed up too much with West, Pakistan believed Gwadar would become the centre point for docking for the western & East Asian countries.
India tried to stop the project by putting pressure on Clinton administration & Madlin Albright even came to Pakistan to discuss the issue but it was ignored.

After Bush won the election he rather say potential interests in the port than threats. Ignoring the future Chinese presence he welcomed the project. After the fall of Taliban US became major player in laying down of Gas & Oil Pipe Line from Cental Asia to Afghanistan to Pakistan (Gwadar). From here USA was going to get its oil & gas, also since Gwadar was nearer to East Asia they would prefer to get oil from Pakistan than going to Iran.
Even though Iran had now understood the game plan & knew that if they built a port it wont do them much good specialy since singing of contracts between Pakistan, Afghanistan & Central Asian former Russian federation states, they still made plans to built there own port near the Pakistan's Balochistan province (Gwadar is in Balochistan). But they also decided to establish gas pipe line from Iran to Pakistan (this proves that they dnt have much of a confidence in their port & its future). But the pipe line still does have great export potential specialy to India.

Bush by showing willingnes to extract oil from Gwadar has brought good luck to Pakistan. Their preductions had come true PS US will also make sure that Iranian port does not get the same importance. I have herd they agreed to put pressure on European nations not to get oil from there but from Gwadar.

MeanWhile Russia will get a kick in the back. Since the travel route to Gwadar is short, almost all the countries will go there & ignore to travel all the way up to Russia to get their oil. Hence Russian, the largest oil producing country, may face huge setback.
If they send their oil to Iran they still go in loss. East Asian countries wont go there cause Gwadar comes first to them on the route & nearer too & US will not like its friendly nations going to Iran.

This brings Russia into checkMate & Pakistan will enjoy teasing them since Russia has been denying Pakistan defence deals including Su-30s. It would be interesting to see if what step Russia takes. Form a strong friendship with Pakistan & export its oil through shorter range or stay with India & loose the oil revenue.

I think US would also be happy to sea Russia as a Fish out of Water.

Since the Gwadar has so much of an importance to both Pakistan & China, both need to deploy large amount of Naval Ships so that the port could be protected by potential attacks from India (no other nation would be interested to attack Gwadar & no one has enemosity towards Pakistan)...Singapore is also interested in deploying their Navy to Gwadar & I believe US will also come up with such proposal. But since Pakistan has kinda denied Singapore the deal under Chinese pressure, I doubt US would be allowed. Mean While China would also deploy its navy to Eastern Seas of India at Mayanmar (Burma).

Chinas deal of giving PN F22P Frigates & also its ToT is a move to produce more joint naval forces & ships to surround the Indian Ocean. Both Pakistan & China will be selling F22P to Burma as well & to much of India's worse Bangladesh has joined in too. This would be the largest joint naval force & deployment of naval ships in the history of modern navy.

Since Navys need AirSupport as well China is also selling its naval helicopters & their ToT to Pakistan, which again will be jointly sold to Burma & Bangladesh. Along with that it is speculated that both PAF & PLAAF will establish a joint AirForce Base at Karachi, Gwadar & in Punjab province near Indian borders (which is said to be largest AirForce base of Asia). NWFP is also being considered so that Pakistan & China can jointly protect pipe lines in/from Afghanistan.
We may see combinition of F-16s, FC-1s/JF-17s, J-10s, Su-30MKKs & other ACs stationed togather at one AirBase, the Joint Gwadar Base of Air Defence.

China has already named the Naval Deployment as "The Marchant Navy" & is willing for "Marchant AirForce" & "Marchant Army" all a joint venture.

So Gwadar is Pakistans door way to huge economic surplus & China's door way to become major Super Power in the world & make the world Multi-Poler again.

To Indias shock, Bush has not done any thing to stop this. He sees his own interests in it. He wants cheap oil & gas & for that he would go on to avoid conflict with China. This ignorance of US towards China would give China a chance to invade Tiwan & China has already started the preparations.
 

rajupaki

New Member
It will also be a point of concern For US, because now it will face another competent in Middle east region!. It will inhance China's stregetic importance in the world(soryy if you find difficult to understand my this santance).;)

But woudnt US pressurize Pak to deny China for Naval/aIR BASE? It will be very difficult for Pak in such a situation.

India can also use Russian influnce to do whatever it can.
 
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P.A.F

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It will also be a point of concern For US, because now it will face another competent in Middle east region!. It will inhance China's stregetic importance in the world(soryy if you find difficult to understand my this santance).;)

But woudnt US pressurize Pak to deny China for Naval/aIR BASE? It will be very difficult for Pak in such a situation.

India can also use Russian influnce to do whatever it can.
let the US pressure pakistan as much as it wants. i can assure you that pakistan would not turn its long term ally down. we can not afford to just back stab china like that and end up breaking a 50+ year old friendship down.;)
 

rajupaki

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P.A.F said:
let the US pressure pakistan as much as it wants. i can assure you that pakistan would not turn its long term ally down. we can not afford to just back stab china like that and end up breaking a 50+ year old friendship down.;)
yes i agree with u that Pak will prefer China on US but what if US would again stop F16 on this reaction? or again put militry ban! :(
 

P.A.F

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Quote:
Originally Posted by P.A.F
let the US pressure pakistan as much as it wants. i can assure you that pakistan would not turn its long term ally down. we can not afford to just back stab china like that and end up breaking a 50+ year old friendship down.;)



yes i agree with u that Pak will prefer China on US but what if US would again stop F16 on this reaction? or again put militry ban! :(

so what if the US decides to stop it's military supply. we'll just step up defence co-operation with the chinese and we also got france to buy weapons of. the F-16s are nothing special for the PAF now. there just additions to our force.
 

SABRE

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rajupaki said:
It will also be a point of concern For US, because now it will face another competent in Middle east region!. It will inhance China's stregetic importance in the world(soryy if you find difficult to understand my this santance).

But woudnt US pressurize Pak to deny China for Naval/aIR BASE? It will be very difficult for Pak in such a situation.

India can also use Russian influnce to do whatever it can.
As mentioned earlier US during Clinton's rule was concerened. They even sent Madlin Albright to Pakistan but Nawaz said there is going to be no such naval built up. But when Musharaf came to power & port construction had reached the point of no return, China & Pakistan's intentions for join naval built up became clearer. Since Clinton reuined Pakistan-US relations specialy when Musharaf came in there was no point in talking Pakistan out.

Now President Bush sees Gwadars advantages rather than threats. He is confident that Pakistan will not allow Chinese Navy to stop US trade on the route & I believe Musharaf has made some promiss on that.

But I believe that all these Patriot & crusie missile deal by US to India is a part of US concerns over Gwadar but unfortunatly India will have to do it alone, with or with out US aid & weapons. US will never entre the war.

India's military build up is a part of their concern. They are also making a port to opperate their navay at a point where Pakistan Airforce cant attack. Pakistan AirForce alone cant attack Indians ports, hence this proofs that Pakistan will go for joint airforce base & India is also aware of it.

Russia on the other hand is as power less as a crippled boy watching his friend sink. They cant move in their Navy towards Indians ocean. From north its a long & cold route, from West they have no sea opening & from east they wont come & China is making sure they dont by deploying their navy at Bangladesh & Burma (Mayanmar). So you see China is closing waters on India along with Pakistan.

US is keeping it self out of this dirt. They dont want to get into middle of Pakistan-India relations if they go worse as well as Indo-China relations. The best they can do is offer India weapons to protect it self but not the weapons to go aggressive.
US rather than joining another cold war would like to sit out & full fill its interest. As long as its getting oil from Gwadar it has nothing to worry about. Pakistan wont allow China to attack US naval & trade ships at Gwadar since they would be the major oil takers from there & Europe would be following US. Attacking US ships would be considered as a terror attack & Pakistan wont like to be mentioned on that list. Hence US has nothing to worry about.
 

Pendekar

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Pakistan wont allow China to attack US naval & trade ships at Gwadar since they would be the major oil takers from there & Europe would be following US
and China would be wise to avoid angering US, for now.
 

lakhani

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SABRE said:
After Bush won the election he rather say potential interests in the port than threats.
well I didn't agree with this statement bcz I believe that washington is still woried about this project(i have read this in many articles after Bush won the election), the reason why Bush is not pressurizing Pakistan is that they cant work in Afghanistan without pakistan and they cant afford Pakistan's no now for Afghanistan.
 

AK_PAK

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I doubt the Chinese will have a naval base or anything like that in Gwadar. They might have a small presence there but they have made it pretty clear, they are developing Gwadar for economic purposes. They aren't a naval power as of yet in any case. The only ones who are saying the Chinese are going to set up a base are the Indians and Americans, as they both are anxious about Gwadar and the growing Pakistan-China relations.
 

P.A.F

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AK, i'm sure china aren't investing millions into gwader port for nothing u know. ;)
they will end up having some sort of naval presence there.
 
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corsair7772

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Probably going to station some martime and electronic surveillance aircraft there. Thats step #1. Step 2 is basing attackers like JH-7s and step 3 is the basing of naval vessels adapted for surveillance and step 4 is the basing of naval surface combatants. Its a phased move in, not like their gonna bring the whole show in.
 

fightermki

New Member
congrats to all pakistanis by having given a full base to china ur doing the same error as was done by indian rulers to allow british it would lead to following consequencies
1. increase the already soaring relations with us.
2.increased chinese interfrence in pakistans political affairs on international stage.
3.having chinese vessels flauning openly in arabian sea will land pakistan more trouble in western democratic countries.
4.chinese would never come in strong numbers because they will be in landlocked ocean in hostile waters more than 7000<sea route> distance from mainland<hostile means indian and us vessels>near .
5.since india will take chinese entry as inticing factor to increase rivalries they would try to setup base in vietnam .
benefits u have already laid but i think china will make it as a trading port and have coast guard vessels there.any ways it will be beneficial for pak bcoz atleat it will get some patroling vessels to send its fishermen back to its coastalwaters from going into high tide.
 

fightermki

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and about money, if that was a source for pak's friendship with china then india will be greater ally of china.oops.....they are investing billions in india.
 

LazerLordz

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SABRE said:
Since the Gwadar has so much of an importance to both Pakistan & China, both need to deploy large amount of Naval Ships so that the port could be protected by potential attacks from India (no other nation would be interested to attack Gwadar & no one has enemosity towards Pakistan)...Singapore is also interested in deploying their Navy to Gwadar & I believe US will also come up with such proposal. But since Pakistan has kinda denied Singapore the deal under Chinese pressure, I doubt US would be allowed. Mean While China would also deploy its navy to Eastern Seas of India at Mayanmar (Burma).
Could you provide more information on the Singapore / Gwadar link?
 
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