Polish Land Forces Updates & Discussion

[koxinga]

The acquisition of SK K2 Black Panther among others (FA-50, K9 howitzers) were described by the Polish Defence Minister.

Poland to buy jets, tanks and howitzers from South Korea, says minister

Poland will buy 48 FA-50 fighter jets, a first instalment of 180 K2 Black Panther tanks and howitzers from South Korea, Warsaw's defence minister was quoted as saying on Friday, as the country strengthens its army because of the war in Ukraine.

www.reuters.com

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Damian, a Polish defense journalist, says the Polish MoD says the 116 M1A1 will be upgraded to M1A2SEPv3 at an undetermined point.

https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/37523-polish-armoured-vehicles-and-their-modernizations/&do=findComment&comment=1612

 

[koxinga]

So the M1A2s serve to address short term needs, while K2 PL is the mid to long term program, given that it will come with significant ToT, local production, compared to the M1?

Is the program similar to the Turkish Altay?

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Poland has a long term MBT program called Wilk ("wolf"), while the K2 and M1A2 are more of a short term buy.
This is not to say either cannot later evolve to become a basis for the Wilk, although chances for that are low since the next generation of MBTs, even without any exotic technologies, will require quite a lot of rework on the structure of the hull.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

From same guy, a shopping list for Poland:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551431630002262022

In short:

• 180 K2, to be upgraded later to K2PL.
• 820 K2PL produced partially in Poland.
• K3PL development project between Poland and South Korea.
• 1,000-1,400 Borsuk light IFV (amphibious).
• Unknown number of heavier AS21 IFVs.
• 144 AHS Krab.
• 48 K9 upgraded to K9PL.
• 642 K9PL based on K9A2.
• Co-development of next generation SPH.
• Poland interested (i.e no concrete plan/buy) in K239 Chunmoo to supplement existing M142 HIMARS and WR-40 Langusta buys.
• 48 F/A-50PL.
• Poland interested in KF-21.

All of these sound very much plausible, except for a potential KF-21 buy. What sounds more reasonable to me is Polish insistence on participation in the KF-21 project as a supplier.

@koxinga I only now saw your question re: Poland and SK cooperating on K2PL. I do not think it will be anything similar to Altay.

Turkey bought the hull design of the K2, but essentially made their own MBT within that mechanical frame.
Turkey's approach was more like "sell us the first building blocks and we'll take it from there".

Poland's approach is more "we want this and that in an MBT, so if you build it like that, and involve us in the production, we'll buy that from you. And the next major upgrade should have our requirements built in from the start, and we'll buy that as well when it's ready".

 

[ngatimozart]

@Big_Zucchini WRT the KF-21, the Poles may have an interest in the KF-21 as a combat platform because it would give them another platform to replace their Russian aircraft with and potential F-16s. It is a Gen 4.5 aircraft with some basic LO capabilities built into the fuselage. AFAIK the KAI intention is spiral development and future iterations will include an internal weapons bay etc., as well as future LO capabilities being added into it. It will be attractive to them (and others) because it most likely won't have the price tag and CPFH of the F-35. I think this maybe a watch and see what happens thing. If the Poles do acquire the capability, it would be a massive boon for KAI and if the Poles were to become partners in its development, that would let Indonesia off the hook which may please @Ananda

 

[Ananda]

. If the Poles do acquire the capability, it would be a massive boon for KAI and if the Poles were to become partners in its development, that would let Indonesia off the hook which may please @Ananda

Well ROK still try to find another foreign partner to take that 20% share that Turkiye turn it down. That shares now hold by KAI, (which I do believe) will be temporary until they can find another partner. If Poland want to get more than 20%, they can take over another 5% or even 10% from Indonesia .

I do think KF-21 make good supplementary toward F-35, just don't even think this will be alternative to F-35. Even ROKAF don't think that way.

 

[Redlands18]

From same guy, a shopping list for Poland:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551431630002262022

In short:

• 180 K2, to be upgraded later to K2PL.
• 820 K2PL produced partially in Poland.
• K3PL development project between Poland and South Korea.
• 1,000-1,400 Borsuk light IFV (amphibious).
• Unknown number of heavier AS21 IFVs.
• 144 AHS Krab.
• 48 K9 upgraded to K9PL.
• 642 K9PL based on K9A2.
• Co-development of next generation SPH.
• Poland interested (i.e no concrete plan/buy) in K239 Chunmoo to supplement existing M142 HIMARS and WR-40 Langusta buys.
• 48 F/A-50PL.
• Poland interested in KF-21.

All of these sound very much plausible, except for a potential KF-21 buy. What sounds more reasonable to me is Polish insistence on participation in the KF-21 project as a supplier.

@koxinga I only now saw your question re: Poland and SK cooperating on K2PL. I do not think it will be anything similar to Altay.

Turkey bought the hull design of the K2, but essentially made their own MBT within that mechanical frame.
Turkey's approach was more like "sell us the first building blocks and we'll take it from there".

Poland's approach is more "we want this and that in an MBT, so if you build it like that, and involve us in the production, we'll buy that from you. And the next major upgrade should have our requirements built in from the start, and we'll buy that as well when it's ready".

Poland unveils Apache acquisition plans - Defence Connect
You can add 96 AH-64E Apaches to that list as well.

 

[ngatimozart]

Poland unveils Apache acquisition plans - Defence Connect
You can add 96 AH-64E Apaches to that list as well.

The Poles are getting quite serious aren't they. Hanwa are doing really well out of them as well both with their 155mm SPG and MBT acquisitions which aren't small.

 

[swerve]

Very serious. If all the listed stuff is put into service they'll have the biggest & perhaps best artillery & armour forces between Russia & the Atlantic.

 

[koxinga]

I do think KF-21 make good supplementary toward F-35, just don't even think this will be alternative to F-35. Even ROKAF don't think that way.

It depends on what does the country want to achieve. IMO, few countries would be able to employ the F-35 effectively (full spectrum, network centric warfare) and in the sort of numbers that makes sense. And few countries have the security environment that warrant such an expensive setup.

That leaves the door open to very advanced, but more affordable, near 5 gen capabilities.

 

[ngatimozart]

It depends on what does the country want to achieve. IMO, few countries would be able to employ the F-35 effectively (full spectrum, network centric warfare) and in the sort of numbers that makes sense. And few countries have the security environment that warrant such an expensive setup.

That leaves the door open to very advanced, but more affordable, near 5 gen capabilities.

Why do you think that? Let's see. The ones that have acquired it so far certainly can and currently do have full net centric capabilities. Even the Swiss navy has full net centric capabilities.

 

[Meriv90]

Considering how they signed for the AW149

Poland signs for AW149 helicopters

Poland has signed for Leonardo AW149 helicopters, two weeks after the country's defence minister said a deal would be sealed “in the near future”.

www.janes.com

Since they are going to produce it in part at their plant PZL Świdnik factory.

The logic conclusion would have been to go with the AW249 ùù

The New AW249 Attack Helicopter Flies For The First Time

The helicopter will replace the AH-129D Mangusta in service with the Italian Army. The first prototype of the Leonardo AW249 next-generation attack

theaviationist.com

Or going again with Koreans since they got amazing relationship with them and go for the cobra. ù

Bell Proposes to License Build Its AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopter to South Korea - MilitaryLeak.COM

Bell, the manufacturer of the AH-1Z AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter currently deployed by the U.S. Marine Corps sent its offer to the South Korean Defense

militaryleak.com

 

[ngatimozart]

Considering how they signed for the AW149

Poland signs for AW149 helicopters

Poland has signed for Leonardo AW149 helicopters, two weeks after the country's defence minister said a deal would be sealed “in the near future”.

www.janes.com

Since they are going to produce it in part at their plant PZL Świdnik factory.

The logic conclusion would have been to go with the AW249 ùù

The New AW249 Attack Helicopter Flies For The First Time

The helicopter will replace the AH-129D Mangusta in service with the Italian Army. The first prototype of the Leonardo AW249 next-generation attack

theaviationist.com

Or going again with Koreans since they got amazing relationship with them and go for the cobra. ù

Bell Proposes to License Build Its AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopter to South Korea - MilitaryLeak.COM

Bell, the manufacturer of the AH-1Z AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter currently deployed by the U.S. Marine Corps sent its offer to the South Korean Defense

militaryleak.com

Yep, but the Apache is in service and production already so they don't have to worry about any development problems and delays that will occur with the AW249. The same with delays from Korea. It takes time to build a new facility and Poland doesn't have that time. The other point is that both the US Army and British Army use the Apache as well as the Dutch, so the Poles can link in quite easily with them, especially with the US Army logistics system. They can't do that with the other two.

 

[STURM]

Yep, but the Apache is in service and production already so they don't have to worry about any development problems.

With the availability of inexpensive loitering munitions do you forsee certain countries having less of a need for dedicated helicopters? Loitering munitions and helicopters have their pros and cons and none can totally replace the other but perhaps if certain countries are willing to make the needed trades offs; they can either do away with dedicated attack helicopters or have smaller numbers but to incorporate their use with loitering munitions.

 

[ngatimozart]

With the availability of inexpensive loitering munitions do you forsee certain countries having less of a need for dedicated helicopters? Loitering munitions and helicopters have their pros and cons and none can totally replace the other but perhaps if certain countries are willing to make the needed trades offs; they can either do away with dedicated attack helicopters or have smaller numbers but to incorporate their use with loitering munitions.

Not at the moment. An attack helicopter still gives you eyes on and an ability to immediately react to a quickly changing situation or something unusual.

 

[Redlands18]

Poland – M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tanks | Defense Security Cooperation Agency (dsca.mil)
A big shopping list for Poland incl.
116 M-1A1
12 M88A2
8 M1110
6 M577A3
26 M1152A1
26 M1279A1
116 M2 .50 cal MG
232 M240 MG
As well as a large amount of ammo (mid 6 figures) and other ancillary items.
Total estimated cost is $3.75B

 

[swerve]

Note that the first 24 K9 & 10 K2 have already been delivered.
First delivery of S. Korean heavy weapons comes to Poland

Poland seems to be keen on domestic production where practical, which makes sense. Their production costs are lower than in western Europe (lower prices in general, & lower wages), & they have the right sorts of manufacturers. The Koreans seem willing to cooperate with that.

The Poles seem to be scaling back their planned HIMARS numbers, because the Chunmoo works, can be delivered quickly, & costs less, especially when factoring in Korean willingness to fit Polish systems & put it on a Polish vehicle. They ordered 288 of them in October.
Hanwha signs contract to supply 288 Chunmoo Multiple Rocket Launcher Systems to Poland - EDR Magazine

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Poland – M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tanks | Defense Security Cooperation Agency (dsca.mil)
A big shopping list for Poland incl.
116 M-1A1
12 M88A2
8 M1110
6 M577A3
26 M1152A1
26 M1279A1
116 M2 .50 cal MG
232 M240 MG
As well as a large amount of ammo (mid 6 figures) and other ancillary items.
Total estimated cost is $3.75B

The Polish government has signed off on an initial portion of the equipment the US has approved for sale. The $1.4 Bln deal should see the delivery of the 116 M1A1s to begin later this year.

Poland signs deal to buy 2nd batch of U.S. Abrams tanks

Poland's defense minister has signed a deal to buy a second batch of U.S Abrams main battle tanks as Warsaw beefs up its defensive capabilities and strengthens military cooperation with Washington in light of Russia's war in neighboring Ukraine.

apnews.com

 

[StobieWan]

Very serious. If all the listed stuff is put into service they'll have the biggest & perhaps best artillery & armour forces between Russia & the Atlantic.

I was watching a presentation by a pretty good YT creator who described the situation as being like Poland had gone to an arms fare and when asked "what would you like" replied "yes"

They are or will be fielding more tanks than Germany, France and the UK combined I believe. Which makes logical sense given their land border and historical experiences.