Pakistan Nuclear & Missile Development and News
- Thread starter kashifshahzad
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Yeah i know harpoon-1 is that ship based defencive missile,but what i want to know is the name of that missile which America claims ,Pakistan has reverse engineered.No proof to that, but i would like to know whcih missile is that,coz in the article it says that this would cause great threat to India.
No name since Pakistan has not claimed any test of a naval missile.
"The accusation comes at a particularly delicate time" The question came up in June! This article comes at a particularly delicate time Below is another quote from Sanger's article.
(" Robert Hewson, editor of Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons, a yearbook and Web-based data service, said the Harpoon missile did not have the necessary range for a land-attack missile,“They’re beyond the need to reverse-engineer old U.S. kit,” Mr. Hewson said in a telephone interview. “They’re more sophisticated than that.” Mr. Hewson said the ship-to-shore missile that Pakistan was testing was part of a concerted effort to develop an array of conventional missiles that could be fired from the air, land or sea to address India’s much more formidable conventional missile arsenal. )
This is only factual thing with in the article. I have ached a link to the NY times
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world/asia/30missile.html
Very few people I know regard David Sanger as a non bias news source.
PS be careful of news articles that base there story on another news source. It relinquishes all responsibility.Hence credibility.
(" Robert Hewson, editor of Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons, a yearbook and Web-based data service, said the Harpoon missile did not have the necessary range for a land-attack missile,“They’re beyond the need to reverse-engineer old U.S. kit,” Mr. Hewson said in a telephone interview. “They’re more sophisticated than that.” Mr. Hewson said the ship-to-shore missile that Pakistan was testing was part of a concerted effort to develop an array of conventional missiles that could be fired from the air, land or sea to address India’s much more formidable conventional missile arsenal. )
This is only factual thing with in the article. I have ached a link to the NY times
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world/asia/30missile.html
Very few people I know regard David Sanger as a non bias news source.
PS be careful of news articles that base there story on another news source. It relinquishes all responsibility.Hence credibility.
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Many people I know regard David Sanger as a bias source. In fact most people I know even regard The New York Times as bias and non credible source.
That reminds me, see the movie Dr. Strangelove - how one rumor from the New York Times forces Soviets into making a doomsday machine. Most of things happening in the movie are based on real time attitudes of U.S. institutions.
I forgot the Non in non bias. Thats embarrassing .
I hate to say most news sources here in the US are not credible. Over time anonymity has take precedence to accountability. Quoting out of context has become regular practice . Thing are starting to change , The New York Times Company has been bleeding about ten million a month for the past few years. I don't see that changing, The media did all thy could to help elect Obama in hopes for a bail out and so far he has hung them out to dry. Thats why we've seen so much unfavorable media here about him.
I didn't know that Dr.Strange love was based on real time attitudes. You are dating your self SABRE
I would be very surprised if Congress did not vote in favor of this bill. It would be a sound investment and a good step for the US. We'll see.
I hate to say most news sources here in the US are not credible. Over time anonymity has take precedence to accountability. Quoting out of context has become regular practice . Thing are starting to change , The New York Times Company has been bleeding about ten million a month for the past few years. I don't see that changing, The media did all thy could to help elect Obama in hopes for a bail out and so far he has hung them out to dry. Thats why we've seen so much unfavorable media here about him.
I didn't know that Dr.Strange love was based on real time attitudes. You are dating your self SABRE
I would be very surprised if Congress did not vote in favor of this bill. It would be a sound investment and a good step for the US. We'll see.
That is ok. You can always edit it - which you have.I forgot the Non in non bias. Thats embarrassing .
Well, at least that is what the makers attempted to do. They got much of it right. But back than the USAF promised the makers and viewers that what ever is in the film they'll make sure it does not happen.I didn't know that Dr.Strange love was based on real time attitudes. You are dating your self SABRE
I would be surprised if they don't put conditions on it, if they pass it. If they do they loose what ever respect they have amongst Pakistanis, which is next to zero. If they don't put conditions, they won't be loosing any respect but won't be getting any either. U.S has lots of ground to cover amongst the ordinary Pakistani.
I as an American an sorry to hear that, One can always hope that things may change. Hopefully for the better.
Pak Harpoons
The (Pakistan) government has responded with an agreement in principle for mutually agreed inspections,’ US Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs P.J. Crowley told reporters. Pakistan has now agreed to let the US inspect the suspect Harpoon missiles.
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Pakistan allows US to inspect Harpoons
I think if Pakistan really did modify the harpoons, they did so because they know they really have alot of offensive weapons to fight India on the water, but they could always use more land strike
weapons, especially with the range, accuracy and reliability of harpoon. They have 3x versions of Harpoon, 3x versions of Exocet and C-802 eagle strike which they also produce. The NYT
article also accuses Pakistan of modifying some of their P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft.
Admin Edit: Text deleted. Start another thread if you wish to go off topic
The (Pakistan) government has responded with an agreement in principle for mutually agreed inspections,’ US Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs P.J. Crowley told reporters. Pakistan has now agreed to let the US inspect the suspect Harpoon missiles.
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Pakistan allows US to inspect Harpoons
I think if Pakistan really did modify the harpoons, they did so because they know they really have alot of offensive weapons to fight India on the water, but they could always use more land strike
weapons, especially with the range, accuracy and reliability of harpoon. They have 3x versions of Harpoon, 3x versions of Exocet and C-802 eagle strike which they also produce. The NYT
article also accuses Pakistan of modifying some of their P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft.
Admin Edit: Text deleted. Start another thread if you wish to go off topic
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@ Gi-Gizmo
I don't buy the modified Harpoon story especially considering the source. For so many reasons. I will start with range 75 nmi is marginal at best ,Accuracy is questionable over land also.The best it can do in surface to surface is large ships so unless you are targeting a stadium it would be nothing more than a terror wepon. Then add to that the fact Pakistan has Babur cruise missiles capable of ranges around 435 mi with much better accuracy.
Then there is the story itself I quote from Defence Talk News "According to the report, US intelligence agencies detected on April 23 a suspicious missile test that appeared to indicate that Pakistan had a new offensive weapon". To go from detecting a new offensive weapon to it being a modified Harpoon is a stretch even for the US "Intelligence" community. Everything I have read revolves around The NY Times and this one article. Even statements by Pakistan officials are denials of what the Times printed and nothing more. I think its piss poor reporting with no clear source (Government Official is a very broad description) with a clear agenda nothing new for the NY Times and all papers owned by them.
Not one other news source has contributed to this story other than quoting the article. I find it hard to believe Eric Schmitt and David Sanger are the only two reporters with sources that have information regarding this subject. There for if no one else is writing about it there is no story
Thats just one way to look at it.
PS two quotes from the article you posted.
"Pakistan has rejected the report as ‘totally inaccurate’, urging the US media to focus on helping Pakistan to fight the common enemy of terrorism instead of making false allegations. "
Clearly this is directed at the NY Times and not allegation from the US government that the paper had claimed.
"We take these allegations very seriously. We have engaged the government of Pakistan at the highest levels,"
This doesn't sound like a statement you would expect from a government that was feverishly trying to get Pakistan to permit them inspections. As the article implied does it?
I don't buy the modified Harpoon story especially considering the source. For so many reasons. I will start with range 75 nmi is marginal at best ,Accuracy is questionable over land also.The best it can do in surface to surface is large ships so unless you are targeting a stadium it would be nothing more than a terror wepon. Then add to that the fact Pakistan has Babur cruise missiles capable of ranges around 435 mi with much better accuracy.
Then there is the story itself I quote from Defence Talk News "According to the report, US intelligence agencies detected on April 23 a suspicious missile test that appeared to indicate that Pakistan had a new offensive weapon". To go from detecting a new offensive weapon to it being a modified Harpoon is a stretch even for the US "Intelligence" community. Everything I have read revolves around The NY Times and this one article. Even statements by Pakistan officials are denials of what the Times printed and nothing more. I think its piss poor reporting with no clear source (Government Official is a very broad description) with a clear agenda nothing new for the NY Times and all papers owned by them.
Not one other news source has contributed to this story other than quoting the article. I find it hard to believe Eric Schmitt and David Sanger are the only two reporters with sources that have information regarding this subject. There for if no one else is writing about it there is no story
Thats just one way to look at it.
PS two quotes from the article you posted.
"Pakistan has rejected the report as ‘totally inaccurate’, urging the US media to focus on helping Pakistan to fight the common enemy of terrorism instead of making false allegations. "
Clearly this is directed at the NY Times and not allegation from the US government that the paper had claimed.
"We take these allegations very seriously. We have engaged the government of Pakistan at the highest levels,"
This doesn't sound like a statement you would expect from a government that was feverishly trying to get Pakistan to permit them inspections. As the article implied does it?
more needs to be done
Great news !!! i hope the deal gets through smoothly. & yes brother the progress is steady but definitely not slow.
Pakistan Today tested its indeginous air launched cruise missile.
The "Hatf-VIII Ra'ad Cruise Missile" has a reported range of 350Km.
http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/image_viewer.asp?o=http://www.ispr.gov.pk/archive_images/2487.jpg&full_path=1
Here is the vid -
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYaArYRkVQs&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Pakistan successfully flight test of Air Launched Cruise Missile Hatf-8 (Ra'ad) - April 29, 2011[/nomedia]
The "Hatf-VIII Ra'ad Cruise Missile" has a reported range of 350Km.
http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/image_viewer.asp?o=http://www.ispr.gov.pk/archive_images/2487.jpg&full_path=1
Here is the vid -
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYaArYRkVQs&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Pakistan successfully flight test of Air Launched Cruise Missile Hatf-8 (Ra'ad) - April 29, 2011[/nomedia]
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mysterious
New Member
Pakistan Test-Fires Hatf-IX (NASR) Missile
RAWALPINDI: Pakistan on Tuesday successfully test-fired a newly-developed short-range surface-to-surface nuclear-capable missile, according to an official announcement by the Pakistan Army. The multi-tube ballistic missile, Hatf-IX (Nasr), is a 60-km range missile that has been developed to add deterrence value at shorter ranges to Pakistan’s Strategic Weapons Development Programme. The missile has been developed with shoot-and-scoot capability. The test was conducted from an unidentified location.
“The Nasr ballistic missile carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy and shoot-and-scoot attributes. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats,” said the official announcement.
Director General Strategic Plans Division (SPD), Lieutenant General (retd) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman Nescom, Irfan Burney, senior officers from the strategic forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organisations were present at the undisclosed site of the test.
Strategic planners term the test a ‘new and very significant development’ since the missile falls in the category of tactical nuclear weapons. “This is a low-yield battlefield deterrent, capable of deterring and inflicting punishment on mechanised forces like armed brigades and divisions,” said an expert in the field of missile technology. “This takes care of the Indian Army’s obsession with finding space for limited war under the nuclear umbrella.”
Addressing the gathering at the undisclosed location, DG SPD Kidwai said the test was a very important milestone in consolidating Pakistan’s strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum. He said in the hierarchy of military operations, the Nasr Weapon System now provided Pakistan with short-range missile capability in addition to the already available medium- and long-range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in its inventory.
The president and prime minister have congratulated the scientists and engineers for their outstanding success and warmly appreciated the successful test.
Pakistan test-fires Hatf-IX
It is surprising to note that there has been no discussion regarding this missile on this forum, even though it was tested way back in April. This could very well be the 'game-changer' in the subcontinent as it points towards the probable scenario of Pakistan having gained the tech know-how to develop miniaturized nuclear warheads to be used in a tactical battlefield missile - which the NASR essentially is given its description by various Pakistanis close to the missile program. What becomes uncertain now is Indian Army's 'cold start' doctrine which the Pakistanis seem to be aiming to thwart with such capability.
RAWALPINDI: Pakistan on Tuesday successfully test-fired a newly-developed short-range surface-to-surface nuclear-capable missile, according to an official announcement by the Pakistan Army. The multi-tube ballistic missile, Hatf-IX (Nasr), is a 60-km range missile that has been developed to add deterrence value at shorter ranges to Pakistan’s Strategic Weapons Development Programme. The missile has been developed with shoot-and-scoot capability. The test was conducted from an unidentified location.
“The Nasr ballistic missile carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy and shoot-and-scoot attributes. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats,” said the official announcement.
Director General Strategic Plans Division (SPD), Lieutenant General (retd) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman Nescom, Irfan Burney, senior officers from the strategic forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organisations were present at the undisclosed site of the test.
Strategic planners term the test a ‘new and very significant development’ since the missile falls in the category of tactical nuclear weapons. “This is a low-yield battlefield deterrent, capable of deterring and inflicting punishment on mechanised forces like armed brigades and divisions,” said an expert in the field of missile technology. “This takes care of the Indian Army’s obsession with finding space for limited war under the nuclear umbrella.”
Addressing the gathering at the undisclosed location, DG SPD Kidwai said the test was a very important milestone in consolidating Pakistan’s strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum. He said in the hierarchy of military operations, the Nasr Weapon System now provided Pakistan with short-range missile capability in addition to the already available medium- and long-range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in its inventory.
The president and prime minister have congratulated the scientists and engineers for their outstanding success and warmly appreciated the successful test.
Pakistan test-fires Hatf-IX
It is surprising to note that there has been no discussion regarding this missile on this forum, even though it was tested way back in April. This could very well be the 'game-changer' in the subcontinent as it points towards the probable scenario of Pakistan having gained the tech know-how to develop miniaturized nuclear warheads to be used in a tactical battlefield missile - which the NASR essentially is given its description by various Pakistanis close to the missile program. What becomes uncertain now is Indian Army's 'cold start' doctrine which the Pakistanis seem to be aiming to thwart with such capability.
dragonfire
New Member
While it is an important development for Pakistan, the utility of a Nuclear weapon tactical or otherwise brings with it other issues prime of which is retaliation. The escalation of Conventional warfare to one of nuclear warfare.
The basic premise of the cold start doctrine does not seemed to be compromised with this weapon, however it must a big development for the Pakistani Missile program nevertheless.
mysterious
New Member
That is an absurd analysis. Cold Start doctrine is based on a massive, quick-reaction armored thrust into Pakistan by Indian forces. It is absolutely blunted by the Nasr missile in that it is designed to kill the numerical superiority of any Indian incursion into Pakistani territory.
No grounds for 'nuclear retaliation' in this case since the battlefield nuclear missile will not be going into Indian territory, nor targetting ordinary Indians. I suggest you do your homework before making redundant comments.
dragonfire
New Member
It would be naivety to consider that Amassed forces destroyed by a nuclear weapon would not be retaliated using nuclear weapons. I would go so far as to state that in such case there could definitely be retaliatory usage of not just tactical but even strategic weapons. Do remember that there is no legal sanction required for Indian action from any/some international forum/org when deciding a course of retaliation to a nuclear attack.
It would be easier for you to envision the situation if you think of role reversal, wouldnt one feel justified in taking action as discussed above.
The usage of nuclear weapon(s) whether Tactical or otherwise would immediately change the whole scenario - No Govt could survive such a debacle if there wasnt an appropriate to overwhelming response
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mysterious
New Member
And what rationale would the Indians employ for retaliatory strike? 'umm, we invaded Pakistani territory.. they defended with by all means available to them on their own territory.. so, umm, now we're gonna attack with nukes since they stopped our invasion with battlefield nukes'..? Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there's something illegal about a) the invasion, b) a nuclear response after an invading force has been halted..
Moot point. Irrelevant.
dragonfire
New Member
Cold Start is not an invasion plan.
Cold Start is an operational plan devised from the experience of Operation Parakram (2001-2002) it is a limited offense plan devised to ensure speed in deployment of forces. It must also be added that Cold Start as such does not have a lot of backing in India. The Army ofcourse supports it, however the entire politic doesnot seem to.
However in order to make you understand the view of the Indian Armed forces reg the Nasr, pl refer to the IAF chiefs response to queries directly in respect to usage of Nasr. His language indicates that it would be expected that there would be heavy nuclear retaliation if a nuclear weapon is used and it would be as per stated policy.
Response to strike from Pak will be very heavy: IAF chief - Times Of India