PakShaheen79
New Member
Wanted to post the link only but as I am new and have very few posts so can't post the link. Thanks any how for reminding me the forum guidelines.
Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions
- Thread starter P.A.F
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Is it worth it to keep spending money to develop the JF-17, why don't they replace their older aircraft with a steady stream of SU-30? Does the JF-17 have some advantage when it comes to ground attack?
I have seen that they have not succeeded in exporting the Thunder and China itself has not bought it.
I'm not sure why they are so keen in getting F-16s, they may be left without support if there is any future escalation.
I have seen that they have not succeeded in exporting the Thunder and China itself has not bought it.
I'm not sure why they are so keen in getting F-16s, they may be left without support if there is any future escalation.
About the only advantage is that Pakistan can purchase 3-4x JF-17's for each SU-30 it can buy and it needs numbers... Not to mention the JF-17 being significantly manufactured in Pakistan gives them a strategic 'hedge' in case of diplomatic relations with aircraft suppiers heading 'south'.
The JF-17 may not have been exported in significant numbers, though there are many nations reportedly interested in it.
F-16 is a known capability. Advanced Block 52 aircraft are more or less a match qualitatively with anything else flying in that region, with an assured upgrade path thanks to the F-16V configuration and diversification of suppliers (ie: US, China and Russia) provides a further strategic hedge.
F-16 and SU-30/35 if purchased will provide a qualitative 'backbone' for the PAF for many years to come, with a wider roll out of upgraded JF-17 Thunders to flesh out squadron numbers for the PAF.
On face value it appears a good strategy.
Incog_Nito
New Member
Is PAF still looking to shop for Mirage IIIs and Vs for Airframe and Engine Spares?
I guess they might find some good deal as most ex-operators have put them in storage, I guess.
I guess they might find some good deal as most ex-operators have put them in storage, I guess.
PAF was looking into Egyptian Mirage-Vs but the deal seems to have hit a snag. The objective for buying them old Mirages is a) cannibalise them to keep the existing ROSE upgrades afloat, b) if they are anything like Egyptian Horus, use them alongside the ROSE Mirages for at least 5 or 6 years. Mirage retirement plan seem to have been delayed to fill in the gap left by the discontinuation of JF-17 Block II production in anticipation of Block III. It might take at least 5-6 years to acquire a sufficient number of Block IIIs. I guess, apart from Egyptian Horus, all other Mirage-V around the globe may only be worth cannibalising, provided they still have something worth cannibalising left in them.
Maximuswarrior
Member
It is a blessing in disguise. The Mirage fighters no matter how potent are old airframes and pleading for replacement. As you rightfully say, PAF is fully focused on the production and induction of JF-17 Block 3 in greater numbers. The Block 3 is a quantum leap achievement for China and Pakistan. The JF-17 was initially envisaged as a very basic fighter with modest specs. This fighter has grown into something very different over the decades. Along with Block 3, project Azm (5th gen) are the main focus of PAF. Is China helping Pakistan ramp up the production of Block 3? It is expected that project Azm will be built as a joint venture between China and Pakistan. Would it be reasonable to conclude that input and critical parts for project Azm are going to be acquired through China? There was some talk regarding Pakistan joining hands with Turkey in their 5th gen endeavour. Is there any truth to these claims? I suppose details regarding project Azm are still very scarce.
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If Pakistan join the Turkish 5th Gen endeavour what are your views on the Turkish engine options because any engine with US components will be off the table?
Maximuswarrior
Member
That is a good question. It remains to be seen whether Turkey really opts for a US\Western engine. In my opinion, they won't. Neither is the US or a Western country going to provide critical components such as an engine to Turkey. It is highly unlikely. When Turkey opted for Russian S-400 and ditched the F-35 they knew that their own 5th gen project would have to be completed without Western input. I think this is where China and Russia are going to come forward and supply the goods. One thing going for Turkey is the fact that they have extensively worked along with other consortium partners of F-35. The Turks have a good understanding of the tech and knowhow. It will help them a great deal in developing their own 5th gen platform.
China has worked for decades on refining its engine tech. China is now capable of fielding a powerful engine for their 5th gen platform. Some 4th gen aircraft are already housing a Chinese engine. Russia has already mastered engine tech for a longer period.
If Turkey goes for a Russian or Chinese engine, PAF can certainly think of joining this project. Although, PAF is in a luxurious position as it has Chinese assistance and expertise on its side. I believe that project Azm will benefit a great deal of input from China.
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China still has a significant problem with its engine technology that it hasn't yet solved and that it the metallurgy which is something that cannot be reverse engineered. They are catching up with it, but it is a dark art as well as a science and they need to build the expertise and experience in it which takes time.
Maximuswarrior
Member
China is catching up very fast. Engine technology isn't kindergarten stuff. I believe that China is taking its time to field an engine for its 5th gen fighter. It doesn't want to rush the integration of such a critical component. Once China fields a matured engine it has full sufficiency. Only a matter of time before an engine goes into full production for a nation that has already achieved many marvels. China is indeed in the final stages.
In the meantime, as I mentioned, Russia is a good alternative for Turkey. Since Turkey acquired S-400 it only makes sense to get a powerful Russian engine for the Turkish 5th gen platform. Turkey won't have any issues getting this engine from Russia. Turkey is drifting away from the Western/European bloc. The relation between Turkey and Western nations is going to sour further as time progresses. This will impact defence relations adversely.
Where does that leave Pakistan? The US sanctioned Pakistan previously when it sought more F-16s. Pakistan realised that relying on others wasn't a smart thing. The JF-17 was the first project that Pakistan initiated as a joint venture with China. Project Azm won't be different. Pakistan is also gearing towards self-sufficiency as much as possible. These are the right steps in the right direction.
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At this point, as things stand, expect Turkey to not incorporate any American item into its future indigenous defence projects. This is due to both political and export control reasons. If Turkish project involves European or Russian cooperation then Pakistani participation hinges on guarantee of uninterrupted sales and support, which is a very difficult insurance to provide. We must also consider Pakistan's own technical and financial limitations in participating in Turkey's possibly multilateral TFX project.
Maximuswarrior
Member
PAC delivers 14 JF-17 aircraft to PAF today
Fahad Zulfikar Updated 30 Dec 2020
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Karma delivered 14 dual-seat JF-17 aircraft to Pakistan Air Force (PAF), local media reported on Wednesday. The jets would also be used for pilots’ training.
As per details, the induction of JF-17 aircraft will increase the potential for national defence.
The Chinese-designed dual-seat fighter jet produced jointly by Pakistan will be inducted into PAF’s fleet during a ceremony today.
Earlier, China ramped up production of JF-17 fighter jet, which was jointly developed with Pakistan. In the first half of 2020, the number of aircraft delivered was the most in the past five years, according to industry reports.
The production line of the JF-17 has on average shortened the production period of a single aircraft by 15 days compared to last year. The Pakistani Air Force is the main operator of JF-17 fighter jets. Myanmar also flies the Chinese-Pakistani made fighter jets.
The latest, powered-up version of the JF-17, known as the JF-17 Block 3, made its maiden flight in December 2019, the Aerospace Knowledge magazine reported then.
Since my previous post was removed due to lack of commentary I hope the moderator doesn't remove this attempt.
Why is JF-17B an important platform for the PAF? It will serve both as a trainer and a fighter during wartime. PAF pilots are going to train on a fighter they will fly. Surely cost-effective, but also the luxury of getting an immediate feeling of the machine itself. Time is another factor. The 14 dual seat JF-17B fighters are predominantly produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex which is another huge milestone towards self-sufficiency. PAF has already inducted previous JF-17B airframes. The production assembly has been refined. It is estimated that more JF-17 can be produced annually. Another important fact about JF-17B is that this fighter has served as a foundation and a testbed for JF-17 Block III. For instance, the JF-17B incorporates a FBW system instead of the hybrid flight control system found on Block I and II. Another important change is that the JF-17B is larger than the JF-17 Block I and II. The JF-17B has an enlarged nose to accommodate an AESA radar, but there are other external airframe changes. The lengthened wingspan may indicate an increase in payload, which is one of the criteria for JF-17 Block III. The PAF has claimed that maneuverability has improved, but that can be attributed to airframe improvements such as the introduction of FBW system. The tail/engine exhaust area has also been altered. It is unlikely that this is indicative of an engine switch at this moment. The PAF has expressed interest in a new turbofan engine – the RD-33MK and WS-13. Either one of these engines would improve fuel efficiency, maintenance costs, and thrust-to-weight ratio (TWR). An improvement we might see directly on the newer JF-17 Block III.
Another important development is that the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan has officially announced the start of production of the newest block of the fighter aircraft project, JF-17 Block III. The JF-17 Block III is set to reap the benefits gained during the development of JF-17B.
- The induction of JF-17 aircraft will increase the potential for national defence
- The jets would also be used to train pilots
Fahad Zulfikar Updated 30 Dec 2020
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Karma delivered 14 dual-seat JF-17 aircraft to Pakistan Air Force (PAF), local media reported on Wednesday. The jets would also be used for pilots’ training.
As per details, the induction of JF-17 aircraft will increase the potential for national defence.
The Chinese-designed dual-seat fighter jet produced jointly by Pakistan will be inducted into PAF’s fleet during a ceremony today.
Earlier, China ramped up production of JF-17 fighter jet, which was jointly developed with Pakistan. In the first half of 2020, the number of aircraft delivered was the most in the past five years, according to industry reports.
The production line of the JF-17 has on average shortened the production period of a single aircraft by 15 days compared to last year. The Pakistani Air Force is the main operator of JF-17 fighter jets. Myanmar also flies the Chinese-Pakistani made fighter jets.
The latest, powered-up version of the JF-17, known as the JF-17 Block 3, made its maiden flight in December 2019, the Aerospace Knowledge magazine reported then.
PAC delivers 14 JF-17 aircraft to PAF
The induction of JF-17 aircraft will increase the potential for national defence * The jets would also be used to train pilots
www.brecorder.com
Since my previous post was removed due to lack of commentary I hope the moderator doesn't remove this attempt.
Why is JF-17B an important platform for the PAF? It will serve both as a trainer and a fighter during wartime. PAF pilots are going to train on a fighter they will fly. Surely cost-effective, but also the luxury of getting an immediate feeling of the machine itself. Time is another factor. The 14 dual seat JF-17B fighters are predominantly produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex which is another huge milestone towards self-sufficiency. PAF has already inducted previous JF-17B airframes. The production assembly has been refined. It is estimated that more JF-17 can be produced annually. Another important fact about JF-17B is that this fighter has served as a foundation and a testbed for JF-17 Block III. For instance, the JF-17B incorporates a FBW system instead of the hybrid flight control system found on Block I and II. Another important change is that the JF-17B is larger than the JF-17 Block I and II. The JF-17B has an enlarged nose to accommodate an AESA radar, but there are other external airframe changes. The lengthened wingspan may indicate an increase in payload, which is one of the criteria for JF-17 Block III. The PAF has claimed that maneuverability has improved, but that can be attributed to airframe improvements such as the introduction of FBW system. The tail/engine exhaust area has also been altered. It is unlikely that this is indicative of an engine switch at this moment. The PAF has expressed interest in a new turbofan engine – the RD-33MK and WS-13. Either one of these engines would improve fuel efficiency, maintenance costs, and thrust-to-weight ratio (TWR). An improvement we might see directly on the newer JF-17 Block III.
Another important development is that the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan has officially announced the start of production of the newest block of the fighter aircraft project, JF-17 Block III. The JF-17 Block III is set to reap the benefits gained during the development of JF-17B.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Pakistan hires Leonardo, Paramount Group for aircraft conversion program
Follow-on contracts are expected to bring Pakistan's total number of Sea Sultan aircraft to 10, replacing the country’s long-serving P-3C Orion fleet.
www.defensenews.com
Pakistan seems will continue it's path on having two separate MPA program. One is Sea Eagle using ATR-72 as base while other Sea Sultan using Embrear Lineage 1000e as base. So far seems Sea Eagle for replacing Atlantique and Sea Sultan for replacing P-3C.
There's many speculation on what configuration of Sea Sultan will be, in Pakistani Forums. However so far I haven't seen official configuration for Sea Sultan. It's interesting that Rheinmettal is leading the consortium on Sea Eagle, while Leonardo for Sea Sultan. Brazil also doing MPA conversion using Embrear Lineage 1000e for their P-3B replacement. However so far they're not (due to seems Geopolitical reason) working together with Pakistan.
You are unlikely to see detailed official revelation of SS and SE's configuration. There is no culture in the Pakistani military on releasing details on non-offensive platforms. Open source analysis is the best bet but that will only come after the two platforms are actually developed and revealed to public.Pakistan hires Leonardo, Paramount Group for aircraft conversion program
Follow-on contracts are expected to bring Pakistan's total number of Sea Sultan aircraft to 10, replacing the country’s long-serving P-3C Orion fleet.
Pakistan seems will continue it's path on having two separate MPA program. One is Sea Eagle using ATR-72 as base while other Sea Sultan using Embrear Lineage 1000e as base. So far seems Sea Eagle for replacing Atlantique and Sea Sultan for replacing P-3C.
There's many speculation on what configuration of Sea Sultan will be, in Pakistani Forums. However so far I haven't seen official configuration for Sea Sultan. It's interesting that Rheinmettal is leading the consortium on Sea Eagle, while Leonardo for Sea Sultan. Brazil also doing MPA conversion using Embrear Lineage 1000e for their P-3B replacement. However so far they're not (due to seems Geopolitical reason) working together with Pakistan.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Minister: Pakistan Bought Chinese J-10 Jets To Counter India’s Rafales
On Dec. 29, Pakistani Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed announced the Pakistan Air Force would unveil 25 newly imported “JS-10” jet fighters from China for the Republic Day parade on March 23. These jets, he added, would counter the 36 Dassault Rafale fighters India was receiving from France.
www.forbes.com
Altough no confirmation yet from Chinese source, if this is confirm, means Pakistan involvement with Chinese assets shown how Pakistan decided to move away from US F-16 as PAF mainstay air defense assets.
The article speculate in the end J-10 (potentialy J-10C) going to replace old Mirage 3/5 in PAF inventory as JF-17 replacing J-6. If Pakistan can also get similar deals as JF-17 for manufacturing J-10 domestically, this in fact can replace F-16 altogether.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Pakistan’s interior minister linked the acquisition of 25 J-10C fighter jets as a counter to India’s growing Rafale fleet.Minister: Pakistan Bought Chinese J-10 Jets To Counter India’s Rafales
On Dec. 29, Pakistani Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed announced the Pakistan Air Force would unveil 25 newly imported “JS-10” jet fighters from China for the Republic Day parade on March 23. These jets, he added, would counter the 36 Dassault Rafale fighters India was receiving from France.
Altough no confirmation yet from Chinese source, if this is confirm, means Pakistan involvement with Chinese assets shown how Pakistan decided to move away from US F-16 as PAF mainstay air defense assets.
The article speculate in the end J-10 (potentialy J-10C) going to replace old Mirage 3/5 in PAF inventory as JF-17 replacing J-6. If Pakistan can also get similar deals as JF-17 for manufacturing J-10 domestically, this in fact can replace F-16 altogether.
So although the JF-17 is regarded in Pakistan as a highly advanced 4+ generation fighter jet, this acquisition shows that they realize that it is still inferior compared to the J-10 and Rafale.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
JF-17 is and always be LCA, just like Tejas. However if we see Pakistan and Indian officials and their respective fanboys, JF-17 or Tejas both have capabilities only surpassed by Gen 5 Fighters. According to many of them both has capabilities better then MKI (Pakistani Fanboys on JF-17) or F-16V (Indian Fanboys on Tejas) for example.
Tejas and JF-17 are both build as LCA no more and no less. LCA job mostly as secondary layer of Air Defense, or conducting supporting attack function toward area that's already been handle for air superiority by primary layer assets (at least that what some Air Defense analyst put).
J-10 seems going to replace Mirage and later on F-16 as PAF primary air defense assets. While JF-17 from beginning is replacing J-6 and J-7. Just like Tejas replacing Mig 21 in IAF inventory.
Both PAF and IAF have no illusion on what JF-17 and Tejas really are. However for their politicians and fanboys, well it's another matter.
Both are intended to perform niche roles; each complementing each other in slightly different roles. That's how I see it.
And to be utilised in operational circumstances which do not require the services of a more expensive twin engine MRCA platform.
F-6/J-6/MiG-19 were retired in 2002 and replaced with F-7P and F-7PG (J-7 series). JF-17 has replaced the older F-7/J-7 aircraft and continues with the replacement process. What J-10's acquisition would offer is the immediate operational capability to launch PL-15 LRAAM. JF-17 Block-III are also able to carry this missile but the aircraft has just entered into production and may take sometime to fully integrate PL-15. In any case, J-10 are likely to supersede PAF's current F-16s as the lead fighter aircraft but it would not completely replace them unless logistics support becomes a problem. Otherwise PAF is likely to operate F-16s well into 2050s.Minister: Pakistan Bought Chinese J-10 Jets To Counter India’s Rafales
On Dec. 29, Pakistani Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed announced the Pakistan Air Force would unveil 25 newly imported “JS-10” jet fighters from China for the Republic Day parade on March 23. These jets, he added, would counter the 36 Dassault Rafale fighters India was receiving from France.
Altough no confirmation yet from Chinese source, if this is confirm, means Pakistan involvement with Chinese assets shown how Pakistan decided to move away from US F-16 as PAF mainstay air defense assets.
The article speculate in the end J-10 (potentialy J-10C) going to replace old Mirage 3/5 in PAF inventory as JF-17 replacing J-6. If Pakistan can also get similar deals as JF-17 for manufacturing J-10 domestically, this in fact can replace F-16 altogether.