PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[highnndry]

You would think with all the satellite up in the sky that we would have some pics by now..... Do they have masking tape in the aircraft ? hehehe. Ok time to call google and see if any of their satelite is available?

 

[T.C.P]

Does anyone know the unit cost of this aircraft as this will determine the no. of air craft procured by the Russians

 

[Feanor]

Current estimates are something like 70-80 million USD. We won't know until it wins export contracts. Internal prices are one thing, external another.

And the image posted is indeed fan art.

 

[Wall83]

Actually nothing on the PAK-FA subject but became bored today and made a diagram over all Soviet and Russian warplanes constructed since 1950.
View attachment 3861

edit: that doesnt seem to work

 

[Feanor]

There's a problem with attachments. Just CnP the url.

 

[Wall83]

lets try again then

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=87129&d=1262378846

 

[nevidimka]

Translation form the taxi runs to show that it indeed took place. Dont need linky for this.

Writing. So true. They brought it to the taxiway, the preparation of 30 minutes, then brought the engines, the plane left the starting line (itself of course), the snake, turn on 360, again a small snake, stop, podgazoval, jogging and checking the brakes, turning on the 360 in the opposite direction, turning on the 180 and went back to the taxiway, after which he was taken away altogether. In general, everything was working and simply. Everything worked without a failure and it was at 5.


AK FA Makes First Taxi Run at KnAAPO Airfield

The Russian fifth generation future fighter, the future tactical aircraft aviation complex (PAK FA) , has made its first taxi runs at the KnAAPO ((Komsomol'sk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association)) airfield, Lenta.RU reports.

However, it is not being specified when in particular the airplane's roll out took place and when its tests began. After the roll-out, the airman started the engines and the airplane began moving along the runway. During the taxi run, the PAK FA was braked several times. Two taxi runs were made in all.

Only KnAAPO employees observed the test. As is expected, the PAK FA will make several more taxi runs before the end of 2009, and make first flight in January 2010.

Earlier Russia's vice premier, Sergey Ivanov, announced that the tests of the Russian fifth generation fighter will begin at the end of 2009 - start of 2010. The deputy defense minister, Vladimir Popovkin, announced in mid-September 2009, that the PAK FA, also known as the T-50 and "Article 701," will begin to reach the Russian air force inventory from 2015.

Source: 24.12.09, Avia.RU

 

[nevidimka]

BTW this could probably be it..

 

[Feanor]

Where did that photo come from?

 

[funtz]

Thats a PS.

India, Russia close to PACT on next generation fighter
Ajai Shukla/New Delhi - Jan 05,2010 00:38 AM

Late last year, a defence ministry delegation to Sukhoi's flagship aircraft facility in Siberia became the first Indians to set eyes upon the next-generation fighter that is slated to form the backbone of the future Indian Air Force (IAF). In that first meeting, carefully choreographed by Sukhoi, the new fighter, standing on the tarmac waved a welcome to the Indians, moving all its control fins simultaneously.

The effect, recounts one member of that delegation, was electric. The senior IAF officer there walked silently up to the aircraft and touched it almost incredulously. This was the Sukhoi T-50, the first technology demonstrator of what India terms the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Senior defence ministry sources tell Business Standard that — after five years of haggling over the FGFA's form, capabilities and work-share — a detailed contract on joint development is just around the corner.

The contract, which Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will sign with Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), will commit to building 250 fighters for the IAF and an equal number for Russia. The option for further orders will be kept open. HAL and UAC will be equal partners in a joint venture company, much like the Brahmos JV, that will develop and manufacture the FGFA.

The cost of developing the FGFA, which would be shared between both countries, will be $8-10 billion (Rs 37,000-45,000 crore). Over and above that, say IAF and defence ministry sources, each FGFA will cost Rs 400-500 crore.

Sukhoi's FGFA prototype, which is expected to make its first flight within weeks, is a true stealth aircraft, almost invisible to enemy radar. According to a defence ministry official, "It is an amazing looking aircraft. It has a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of just 0.5 square metre as compared to the Su-30MKI's RCS of about 20 square metres.&"

[That means that while a Su-30MKI would be as visible to enemy radar as a metal object 5 metres X 4 metres in dimension, the FGFA's radar signature would be just 1/40th of that.]

A key strength of the 30-35 tonne FGFA would be data fusion; the myriad inputs from the fighter's infrared, radar, and visual sensors would be electronically combined and fed to the pilots in easy-to-read form.

The FGFA partnership was conceived a decade ago, in 2000, when Sukhoi's celebrated chief, Mikhail Pogosyan, invited a visiting Indian Air Force officer out to dinner in Moscow. Boris Yeltsin's disastrous presidency had just ended, and Russia's near bankruptcy was reflected in the run-down condition of a once-famous restaurant. But, as the IAF officer recounts, the vodka was flowing and Pogosyan was in his element, a string of jokes translated by a female interpreter.

Late that evening Pogosyan turned serious, switching the conversation to a secret project that, officially, did not even exist. Sukhoi, he confided to the IAF officer, had completed the design of a fifth generation fighter, as advanced as America's F-22 Raptor, which is still the world's foremost fighter. Russia's economy was in tatters, but Sukhoi would develop its new, high-tech fighter if India partnered Russia, sharing the costs of developing the fighter at Sukhoi's plant, Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Organisation (KnAAPO).

Reaching out to India was logical for Russia. During the 1990s — when thousands of Russian military design bureaus starved for funds, and a bankrupt Moscow cancelled 1,149 R & D projects — India's defence purchases had kept Russia's defence industry alive, bankrolling the development of the Sukhoi-30 fighter; the Talwar-class stealth frigates; the Uran and Klub ship-borne missiles; and the MiG-21 upgrade.

But co-developing a fifth generation fighter is a different ball game, financially and technologically, and India's MoD hesitated to sign up. Meanwhile enriched by hydrocarbon revenues, Moscow gave Sukhoi the green light to develop the FGFA, which Russia terms the PAK-FA, the acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally Prospective Aircraft Complex of Frontline Aviation).

Today, Russia is five years into the development of the FGFA. In November 2007, India and Russia signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement on co-developing the fighter, but it has taken two more years to agree upon common specifications, work shares in development, and in resolving issues like Intellectual Property Rights (IPR).

The prototype that Sukhoi has built is tailored to Russian Air Force requirements. But the IAF has different specifications and the JV will cater for both air forces, producing two different, but closely related, aircraft. For example, Russia wants a single-seat fighter; the IAF, happy with the Su-30MKI, insists upon a twin-seat fighter with one pilot flying and the other handling the sensors, networks and weaponry.

Negotiations have resolved even this fundamental conflict. India has agreed to buy a mix of about 50 single-seat and 200 twin-seat aircraft. Russia, in turn, will consider buying more twin-seat aircraft to use as trainers. But even as both countries narrow their differences, fresh challenges lie ahead: preparing India's nascent aerospace industry for the high-tech job of developing and manufacturing a fifth-generation fighter.

(This is the first of a two-part series on the IAF's fifth-generation fighter)

(Part II: FGFA negotiating hardball: Russia says India brings little to the table)

A very well balanced article, no fantastic claims of .000000000001 rcs etc.

I suppose Russia can extract a lot of money if Indian Ministry of defence insists on absolute sharing of technolgy.

Does a two pilot approach negate the useage of all the data fusion and advanced systems to help the pilot?

 

[OPSSG]

Does a two pilot approach negate the useage of all the data fusion and advanced systems to help the pilot?

No, not necessarily. For strike missions, I like the 1 pilot and 1 WSO concept. The WSO will be the EW warfare officer during ingress and can focus on the A2G strike mission when over the target.

IMO, data fusion is still worth while be it in a 1 seat or 2 seat configuration. For the JSF and F-22 they are designed from ground up to be a single seater.

For the JSF, they are using data fusion to avoid needing a 2 seat configuration. It's important to remember that the 2 seat F-15E and Growler will remain in service along with the F-22 and F-35C - so the USAF and USN are not giving up the 2 crew concept for certain missions.

There are lots more forum members who are much more conversant with the JSF and it's development. I hope that they will provide the necessary insight and corrections to my post.

 

[aaaditya]

Thats a PS.


A very well balanced article, no fantastic claims of .000000000001 rcs etc.

I suppose Russia can extract a lot of money if Indian Ministry of defence insists on absolute sharing of technolgy.

Does a two pilot approach negate the useage of all the data fusion and advanced systems to help the pilot?

india has negotiated for 25% of the development workshare ,especially involving the mission computers,self defence suites and the composite structures.

the requirement is for 250 pak-fa dual seaters for the indian airforce and 250 single seaters for the russian air force.

here is the link:

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/india-to-develop-25fifth-generation-fighter/381786/

 

[Salty Dog]

(This is the first of a two-part series on the IAF's fifth-generation fighter)

(Part II: FGFA negotiating hardball: Russia says India brings little to the table)

Anyone see Part II yet?

 

[funtz]

Anyone see Part II yet?

here is the authors blog, he posts his articles (once they go for print i assume), on the blog, and a lot other posts.

Broadsword

And here is the part 2 article which was posted on this thread

Concluding article of a two--part series on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft)

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard 6th Jan 2010

Scrutinising the Sukhoi Corporation’s work on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) — a project that India will soon sign up to co-develop — gives one an idea of Russia’s size, and its aerospace expertise. During daytime, in Moscow, the Sukhoi Design Bureau conceptualises FGFA components; by 10 pm the drawings are electronically transmitted over 5,000 kilometres to a manufacturing unit in Siberia. Here, at KnAAPO (Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Organisation) — seven time zones away — it is already 5 am next morning. Within a couple of hours, the drawings start being translated into aircraft production.

Having designed over 100 aircraft (including India’s Su-30MKI), built over 10,000 fighters, and with 50 world aviation records to its credit, Sukhoi understandably regards Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) — its partner-to-be in designing the FGFA — as very much the greenhorn.

But the newcomer wants its due. Bangalore-based HAL has negotiated firmly to get a 25 per cent share of design and development work in the FGFA programme. HAL’s work share will include critical software, including the mission computer (the Su-30MKI mission computer is entirely Indian); navigation systems; most of the cockpit displays; the counter measure dispensing (CMD) systems; and modifying Sukhoi’s single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants.

India will also contribute its expertise in aircraft composites, developed while designing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Russia has traditionally built metallic aircraft; just 10 per cent of the Su-30MKI fuselage is titanium and composites. The FGFA’s fuselage, in contrast, will be 25 per cent titanium and 20 per cent composites. Russia’s expertise in titanium structures will be complemented by India’s experience in composites.

With India’s work share almost finalised, the 2007 Russia-India Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to build the FGFA will soon evolve into a commercial contract between Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and HAL. Ashok Baweja, until recently the chairman of HAL, told Business Standard: “When HAL and UAC agree on terms, they will sign a General Contract. This will include setting up a JV to design the FGFA, and precise details about who will fund what.”

This contract will mark a significant shift in the aeronautical relationship between India and Russia. For decades, HAL has played a technologically subordinate role, assembling and building fighters that Russia had designed. Now, forced to accept HAL as a design partner, the Russians have negotiated hard to limit its role.

The reason: Russia is sceptical about India’s design ability in such a cutting edge project. In June 2008, Business Standard interviewed Vyacheslav Trubnikov, then Russia’s ambassador to India, and an expert on Russia’s defence industry. Contrasting the Su-30MKI with the Tejas LCA, Trubnikov pointed out snidely, “I know perfectly well the Russian ability. But I don’t know what contribution the Indian side might make. So, one must ask the question to the Indian designers, to HAL…what is their claim for building a fighter of the fifth generation type? Either avionics, or engine? What might be India’s contribution? To be absolutely frank, I don’t know.”

For long, the UAC argued that HAL could not expect a major role in the FGFA because Sukhoi had finished much of the work while New Delhi dithered about joining the project. UAC asserts that 5,000 Sukhoi engineers have worked for five years to design the FGFA. Such claims are hard to verify, but it is known that the Sukhoi Design Bureau has about 8,000 engineers, distributed between many different programmes.

With Sukhoi ploughing on alone, Minister of State for Defence Pallam Raju admitted to Business Standard: “The longer India waits to join the project, the lesser will be our contribution. But, we are not sitting idle. Through the defence ministry’s existing programmes [such as the Tejas LCA] we are building up our capabilities.”

Most Indian officials agree that India has not lost much. Even if the FGFA makes its much-anticipated first flight this year, it is still at a preliminary stage of development. Ashok Baweja assessed in early 2009, “The FGFA’s first flight is just the beginning of the programme. My understanding is that the Russians are going ahead (with the test) to validate the FGFA’s “proof of concept” (conceptual design). Whatever composite materials they have now, they’ll use. But, because the composites will change… the FGFA will keep evolving for a fairly long time.”

A top ministry official estimates, “It will take another 4-5 years to develop many of the FGFA’s systems. Then, the aircraft will undergo at least 2000 hours of certification flying and, possibly, some reconfiguration. The FGFA should not be expected in service before 2017. And the twin-seat version may take a couple of years longer.”

With just a 25 per cent share of design, South Block policymakers still believe that the FGFA project is a vital step towards India’s emergence as a military aeronautical power. “Developing 25 per cent of this fighter is far better than just transferring technology to build it in India, as we did with the Su-30MKI,” points out a defence ministry official.

Ashok Baweja puts the project in context. “India can only (develop the FGFA) by partnering with Russia. They have so much experience. It’s not just the design… you must also have materials… maraging steel, titanium, composite alloys, and the industrial base to convert these into high-tech components like gyros, sensors and optics. The FGFA will give us important experience for building fighters hereafter.”

Broadsword: India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter

 

[Feanor]

Russian media has gone silent on the first flight. As of right now it's due to take place this month. No announcements of when, or how it will be conducted. Not even a notification that they're moving the dates again.

 

[Salty Dog]

Thank you funtz for the Part II article.

Seems like the author sings praises of Sukhoi at the beginning, then changes his tone towards the end.

No doubt India will want to integrate their own avionics systems into the FGFA package and this will take time for systems integration. Also the article speaks only of Sukhoi and HAL, but does not mention the train of suppliers from private industry sectors, both in Russia and India, IMHO this will be critical for production as the bar is raised for supplying high quality high tech parts/components for a 5th gen fighter, not just a question of cost.

Also not mentioned is the Brazilian participation in the PAK FA program as an "observer" per a Brazil-Russia MOU signed in early 2009. Brazil is not committed to buy or fund the PAK FA, just to observe it's development.

 

[dragonfire]

india has negotiated for 25% of the development workshare ,especially involving the mission computers,self defence suites and the composite structures.

the requirement is for 250 pak-fa dual seaters for the indian airforce

IIRC i read somewhere that it would be 200 double seaters and 50 single seaters for the IAF, although why is it so is beyond me

Although i dont think a formal order has been given and as such there is no contractual obligation, to order exactly this many planes. The final numbers and configs for the first order is yet to be seen, and further orders would happen as the platform makes its progress

 

[dragonfire]

BTW this could probably be it..

Hey this looks very interesting, it could very well be how the T-50 PAK FA would look like. Are we seeing the first photos of the model of the newest 5th Gen Stealth Fighter

 

[Feanor]

The workload will indeed be distributed 75-25% between Sukhoi and HAL, on the FGFA.

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Èíäèÿ ðàçðàáîòàåò ÷åòâåðòü èñòðåáèòåëÿ ïÿòîãî ïîêîëåíèÿ

HAL will design on board computers, navigation equipment, most of the displays in the cockpit, and the self-defense suites. I'm not sure if this will basically mean that the PAK-FA will use India subsystems, or if for the FGFA HAL will design those subsystems, while the PAK-FA uses Russian equivalents.

There are also some alleged stats in the article. Again the 16 hardpoints, 8 external 8 internal. Potentially a 30mm gun. Price estimates are now at 100 million (up from 70-80 million) a piece. And allegedly both Russia and India will order 250 each. However I'm not sure if this means that Russia will order 250 FGFA, and India will order 250 FGFA, while the number of basic PAK-FA to be ordered is unclear, or that Russia will order 250 PAK-FA while India orders 250 FGFA (which would make more sense).

 

[Spetsznaz]

The weird this is that Sukhoi and the Russian Military is always delaying the public appearance of this PAK FA. Its was supposed to fly in the beginning of 2010 or late 2009 but now they moved the date again