In the current situation if Pakistan Airforce comes in combat against the Indian Airforce for at least 17 days would would be the result. Would the result would same as the 1965 war and 1971 war or would their be some difference. Please give realistic figures and statistics and dont exagerate the performance of any aircraft. Pilot skill's in co-ordination with the aircraft performance should be given with respect to any concrete reference e.g. if i am comparing the F-16 with the Mig-23 i would have to give the comparison in light of the past incidents during which the Mig-23 has faced the Viper.
PAF vs. InAF : The present form.
- Thread starter Sarmad
- Start date
I would think F-16 will beat Mig-23, but the question is can F-16 beat
Su-30MKI.
F-16 has never met Su-30MKI in battle,so we can only speculate.
The joint Indo-US airforce exercises that are going on will be the first time they will come face to face.Then we might get the results(If they ever let out
the results).
Su-30MKI.
F-16 has never met Su-30MKI in battle,so we can only speculate.
The joint Indo-US airforce exercises that are going on will be the first time they will come face to face.Then we might get the results(If they ever let out
the results).
India isn't fielding any MKI's, The US is not fielding AWACs or the latest Block status F-16's either
Well we just have to speculate then.
One on one I would say that Su-30MKI is better than F-16.Though this not that important in respect to any developed nation's airforce but here it becomes important as Pakistan does not have AWACS (atleast i don't think so), integrated C4i/EW solutions etc.
That would put advantage in Su-30MKI's favour.
One on one I would say that Su-30MKI is better than F-16.Though this not that important in respect to any developed nation's airforce but here it becomes important as Pakistan does not have AWACS (atleast i don't think so), integrated C4i/EW solutions etc.
That would put advantage in Su-30MKI's favour.
India does have Foxbats, but it also has some significant problems in keeping the fleet airborne and airworthy.
The IAF has been having probs in sourcing some parts for them - as the Russians have insufficient stocks themselves.
I know this is a problem as I was contracted for an aerospace company approx 2 years ago, and we were regularly approached to try and source some components.
The Foxbat is almost at a point where there would have to be serious consideration to it being a frontline unit.
Going on my direct experience, I would suggest that it would be a homeland defence unit of last resort.
The other issue is that with Indias older Mig fleet there would be some serious issues of maintenance coming into play. Most of her older Migs are kapton cabled - which is banned by western militaries due to issues such as a carcinogenic impact, and the fact that it becomes brittle over time. If it becomes brtittle, then its possible for connectors to dead short against either another cable, or another earthed fitting. Either way means potential component failure - and possible aircraft loss.
It is illegal to replace kapton in western aircraft with a kapton harness, hence it requires a new harness. There is no market for substitute harnesses on russian aircraft - so they either voluntarily withdraw them, or wait for them to fail - hopefully not in flight.
Personally, I believe that the high failure rate of some of Indias Migs have been due to this Kapton replacement issue. Again, at a personal level I was approached by "middlemen" (both Indian and Chinese) numerous times (as recently as the last Avalon Air Show 2003 in Aust where old contacts tried to reconnect with buying opportunities) and who were trying to source Kapton. We had literally miles/kilometres of it in stock, but it had to be destroyed as per international regulations. We could have made a fortune if we had wanted to do so, but that would have guaranteed a loss of future work with some respected customers.
I would be very interested to know if the Mig Bisons have been non Kapton reharnessed - if they haven't then there is no way in hell that you would get me in one.
The IAF has been having probs in sourcing some parts for them - as the Russians have insufficient stocks themselves.
I know this is a problem as I was contracted for an aerospace company approx 2 years ago, and we were regularly approached to try and source some components.
The Foxbat is almost at a point where there would have to be serious consideration to it being a frontline unit.
Going on my direct experience, I would suggest that it would be a homeland defence unit of last resort.
The other issue is that with Indias older Mig fleet there would be some serious issues of maintenance coming into play. Most of her older Migs are kapton cabled - which is banned by western militaries due to issues such as a carcinogenic impact, and the fact that it becomes brittle over time. If it becomes brtittle, then its possible for connectors to dead short against either another cable, or another earthed fitting. Either way means potential component failure - and possible aircraft loss.
It is illegal to replace kapton in western aircraft with a kapton harness, hence it requires a new harness. There is no market for substitute harnesses on russian aircraft - so they either voluntarily withdraw them, or wait for them to fail - hopefully not in flight.
Personally, I believe that the high failure rate of some of Indias Migs have been due to this Kapton replacement issue. Again, at a personal level I was approached by "middlemen" (both Indian and Chinese) numerous times (as recently as the last Avalon Air Show 2003 in Aust where old contacts tried to reconnect with buying opportunities) and who were trying to source Kapton. We had literally miles/kilometres of it in stock, but it had to be destroyed as per international regulations. We could have made a fortune if we had wanted to do so, but that would have guaranteed a loss of future work with some respected customers.
I would be very interested to know if the Mig Bisons have been non Kapton reharnessed - if they haven't then there is no way in hell that you would get me in one.
Bit of old news but can any one tell me what happened to this deal
Russia offers to sell MiG-21 spare parts factory to India
Russia has offered to sell India an entire factory and all the machinery to make spare parts for MiG-21 fighter aircraft, the Defense News reported.
Officials of the Indian defence ministry and the Russian arms export agency are discussing the offer, which comes on the heels of a March 22 Indian parliamentary report asking the air force to phase out the MiG-21s.
"We are greatly relieved by the Russian offer, for India has to depend on parts for MiG aircraft from CIS [former Soviet] countries, which are of inferior quality," a senior defence ministry official said.
India spends $200 million on spare parts for the MiG series annually, the weekly said.
A diplomat at the Russian embassy in New Delhi said that the plant under discussion is based in Nizhny Novgorod. It helped upgrade some of India's MiG-21s.
The plant would help Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which is slated to upgrade 123 MiGs by 2004, the report added.
Defence analyst Bhim Singh said that if India could get the spares and components from Russia, there would be no need to phase out the MiG-21s, and the country would be saved from spending billions of dollars in off-the-shelf purchases of combat aircraft.
Link
http://rediff.com/news/2002/apr/09mig.htm
Russia offers to sell MiG-21 spare parts factory to India
Russia has offered to sell India an entire factory and all the machinery to make spare parts for MiG-21 fighter aircraft, the Defense News reported.
Officials of the Indian defence ministry and the Russian arms export agency are discussing the offer, which comes on the heels of a March 22 Indian parliamentary report asking the air force to phase out the MiG-21s.
"We are greatly relieved by the Russian offer, for India has to depend on parts for MiG aircraft from CIS [former Soviet] countries, which are of inferior quality," a senior defence ministry official said.
India spends $200 million on spare parts for the MiG series annually, the weekly said.
A diplomat at the Russian embassy in New Delhi said that the plant under discussion is based in Nizhny Novgorod. It helped upgrade some of India's MiG-21s.
The plant would help Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which is slated to upgrade 123 MiGs by 2004, the report added.
Defence analyst Bhim Singh said that if India could get the spares and components from Russia, there would be no need to phase out the MiG-21s, and the country would be saved from spending billions of dollars in off-the-shelf purchases of combat aircraft.
Link
http://rediff.com/news/2002/apr/09mig.htm
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #9
If we take an apparent look on both the airforces, IAF consists largely of Mig-21s, -23s, -27s, Mirage 2000s and Jaguars while the PAF has a large number of Mirage 3s, -5s, A-5s and F-7MPs/PGs.
The high performance aircraft on both the sides would be flying very sensitive and high value missions.
Now would the F-7s and Mirage 3/5 provide an adequate defence against the Mig-21s, -23s, -27s, Mirage 2000s and Jaguars in ADA and CAP missions.
The PAF F-16s would be flying CAP over VP/VAs as well as it will fly offensive strikes on india's high value targets. It would be meeting Mig-29s, Su-30s and Mirage 2000s. What outcome is expected? Will the BVR capability would count, pilot's tactics would count or the aircraft's avionics would count. F-16 has performed successfull deep strike missions while in service with the Israel Airforce and USAF, while it has successfully engaged multiple aircraft during the Afghan war with PAF service e.g. 6 Mig-23s vs. 2 F-16s; the viper downed two floggers.
Please give realistic predictions.
The high performance aircraft on both the sides would be flying very sensitive and high value missions.
Now would the F-7s and Mirage 3/5 provide an adequate defence against the Mig-21s, -23s, -27s, Mirage 2000s and Jaguars in ADA and CAP missions.
The PAF F-16s would be flying CAP over VP/VAs as well as it will fly offensive strikes on india's high value targets. It would be meeting Mig-29s, Su-30s and Mirage 2000s. What outcome is expected? Will the BVR capability would count, pilot's tactics would count or the aircraft's avionics would count. F-16 has performed successfull deep strike missions while in service with the Israel Airforce and USAF, while it has successfully engaged multiple aircraft during the Afghan war with PAF service e.g. 6 Mig-23s vs. 2 F-16s; the viper downed two floggers.
Please give realistic predictions.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #10
If we take the photo-reconaissance capabilities of both the airforces the IAF Foxbats are fast and fly high but according to one source India has only 6 of them and they are unarmed combatants [please correct me if i am wrong about this info.] Now if the PAF F-16s are eqipped with AiM-7M then their is a possibility that the Foxbat can be shot down due to the shoot-up capability if the missile.
The Mirage iii RP/RDPs on the other hand are a good and handy reccee fleet but they are much prone to SAMs and can be intercepted.
Now the question is that which aircraft is better in this role, the Foxbat or the Mirage iii RP/RDP.
The Mirage iii RP/RDPs on the other hand are a good and handy reccee fleet but they are much prone to SAMs and can be intercepted.
Now the question is that which aircraft is better in this role, the Foxbat or the Mirage iii RP/RDP.
The company I was consulting for was being approached well after this newspost, so I would assume that there are still significant difficulites in place.Panzer said:
AWACs changes the dynamics completely. The Mainstays are not very good, but they still have a 250-300k paint ability - this is about 2/3rd's of an E3 and possibly the Phalcon.Panzer said:
That leaves very unattractive options for PAF involving , get the Mainstays, get the Tankers, get the bases and then intercept the strike elements - all relatively concurrently.
The PAF without their own tanker option means that strike aircraft basically need to be in constant CAP, without AWAC's then it becomes so much harder as the IAF can see where some PAF aircraft are taking off - let alone where they are at altitude.
India also has long range strikers, so the advantage achieved by short stopping the close air bases is almost negligible.
As far as which is better to use in the photo-reconaissance, the Foxbat or the Mirage iii RP/RDP.
I would think that India will use Mirage iii RP/RDP(That is if they use aircraft for photo-reconaissance).India is increasingly becoming dependent on satellite-based reconnaissance these days.
I would think that India will use Mirage iii RP/RDP(That is if they use aircraft for photo-reconaissance).India is increasingly becoming dependent on satellite-based reconnaissance these days.
They are both completely different aircraft in tactical concept.
The Mig 25 was a "status - statement" aircraft when it was not under threat from hi-reaching SAMs. Now it is not as effective. Its a high altitude sprinter, designed to catch aircraft such as the SR-71 (but which it was never able to do - everytime a Mig25 went up, the SR71 would outgun them - its just shows how much speed was left in the SR71 more than anything). The '25 is a hi altitude sprinter, its supercruise is limited as they aircraft is having maint problems.
The Mirage is a tighter turner, lower altitude platform.
It boils down to some significant but salient points:
Enemy air defences, where they are and what systems are in place
Camera resolution, how high can the plane go to get the optimum shot
Target value - is it worth aircraft loss - is hi speed recon necessary?
The Mig 25 was a "status - statement" aircraft when it was not under threat from hi-reaching SAMs. Now it is not as effective. Its a high altitude sprinter, designed to catch aircraft such as the SR-71 (but which it was never able to do - everytime a Mig25 went up, the SR71 would outgun them - its just shows how much speed was left in the SR71 more than anything). The '25 is a hi altitude sprinter, its supercruise is limited as they aircraft is having maint problems.
The Mirage is a tighter turner, lower altitude platform.
It boils down to some significant but salient points:
Enemy air defences, where they are and what systems are in place
Camera resolution, how high can the plane go to get the optimum shot
Target value - is it worth aircraft loss - is hi speed recon necessary?
At the end of the day comparing aircraft to aircraft can be a pointless exercise - there are too many variables in the mix.
- the most important is pilot ability
- the most important is pilot ability
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #18
Well the incident of 6 Mig-23MLDs vs. 2 F-16As has taken place during the Afghan war. It is mentioned in the PAF history while the kills have been verified by american experts after concrete evidences. It all started on.....Panzer said:
At 06:06AM of 12 September 1988, two F-16As of the 14th Squadron, flown by Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mahmood (on F-16A 85-728) and Sqn.Ldr. Anwar Hussain took off from Kamra AB in order to set up a CAP over the Nawagai area. Around 06:40AM, they were vectored by the GCI to intercept two contacts which were closing the Pakistani border at high level in eastern direction. Both F-16s were soon in proper position, but the contacts then turned to the north flying parallel to the border. In fact, there were not only two, but a total of 12 MiG-23MLDs of the 120. IAP in the air that morning, eight of which were loaded with bombs and have got the order to attack certain targets in the Kunar Valley, while four - split in two pairs (Lt.Col. Sergey Bulin with Maj. N. Golisienko, and Maj. S. Petkov with 1st Lt. V. Danchenkov) - acted as escorts. Detecting four additional contacts, the GCI swiftly turned the F-16s towards the new threat, and Sqn.Ldr. Mahmood acquired a total of six contacts, of which four in the forward formation were trailed by additional two coming from behind. The only problem for Pakistanis now was, that the F-16s were still at the level of 3.500 meters, while their targets flew at more than 10.000 meters, and the rear pair of the targets was flying much faster than the first four aircraft. Indeed, the Soviet GCI detected Pakistani F-16s, and advised Petkov and Danchenkov to block them, while the rest of the formation was to turn back towards West. But, the Pakistanis were faster: closing to a distance of 12km, Mahmood achieved a radar lock-on, but his Sidewinders failed to track the target, as the Soviet pilots engaged their IR counter measures. Mahmood started no less but three attempts to acquire, but failed to do so and, after closing to a distance of less than three kilometers, tried for a fourth time. Finally, he was successfull, and fired one AIM-9L from a low-to-high/left-to-right conversion attack and 135° aspect angle. His target was MiG-23MLD „Bort 55“, flown by Capt. Sergey Privalov, which engaged his IRCM. The Sidewinder closed, however, and exploded over his aircraft, sending dozens of hot splinters into the wings and the fuselage. The whole Soviet section executed a turn to the West now, with Privalov in tow and Petkov and Danchenkov joining the formation without - as it seems - trying to engage F-16s with their R-24s, while Bulin and Golisienko closed from the north and certainly tried to acquire a lock on. However, Mahmood was already executing a hard port turn underneath the enemy formation, rolling out directly behind it and in a perfect attack position behind no less but six MiG-23MLDs! His radar immediately achieved another lock-on, but Mahmood rejected the lock and switched over to an auto-lock, which automatically selected his two AIM-9P missiles, considered better for stern attack. Closing to a distance of three kilometers, the Pakistani fired another missile at the MiG-23MLD flown by Maj. Petkov, when the GCI warned him of two Soviet aircraft directly behind. Mahmood broke hard into the threat, but found nothing there, only to - upon a turn back to the west - realize that the rest of the Soviet formation was already too far away to be intercepted and almost over the Afghani border. For two F-16 pilots there remained nothing else but to return back to their base. The Mig-23 MLDs were considered among the latest aircraft at that time.
Now the base of providing the details of this incident is simple. The PAF pilots are trained and used to fight a large number of aircraft with minimal resources and secondly as gf0012 said ,-the most important is pilot's ability, so this incident also indicated that if you have the ability you can overcome any power which stands in your way.
About the integrated GCI/C4i & EW solutions Panzer,I guess you have not heard of the PADS77(now being upgrd to PADS2K4) survailence airdefense radar network used by Pakistan, which is considered by many experts to be the best airspace monitoring network in whole of Asia.
PADS (both low and high level) has a continous watch over the first and second tier Indian FOBs.Any strike from India the minute it takes off is watched by PAF airdefense officers no matter what it's flight level is.The whole network is integrated into a national threat monitoring and command centre located underground somewhere near Chaklala AFB Rawalpindi.Lower down the heirarchy there are similar control centres located in each of the three Air Commands and all main and Forward Ops bases( according to one Western official " compareable to any NATO airdefense control system").In case of an air war the infrastructure would also come into play eg: India has no dual runway airbase(either main or FOB) near it's western border.PAF on the other hand has Sargodha AFB,Multan AFB, Lahore Int Airport and Karachi Int airport plus a network of FOBs larger than that of Indias.This in the first(dual runway) instance would allow PAF to mount continous sorties(think two landing two departing) and secondly allows a wider dispersal of it's assets making the counter air strike role veeeerrryyy difficult for India.Add to that Highway airstrips and atleast in counter airstrike IAFs day is made.
PADS (both low and high level) has a continous watch over the first and second tier Indian FOBs.Any strike from India the minute it takes off is watched by PAF airdefense officers no matter what it's flight level is.The whole network is integrated into a national threat monitoring and command centre located underground somewhere near Chaklala AFB Rawalpindi.Lower down the heirarchy there are similar control centres located in each of the three Air Commands and all main and Forward Ops bases( according to one Western official " compareable to any NATO airdefense control system").In case of an air war the infrastructure would also come into play eg: India has no dual runway airbase(either main or FOB) near it's western border.PAF on the other hand has Sargodha AFB,Multan AFB, Lahore Int Airport and Karachi Int airport plus a network of FOBs larger than that of Indias.This in the first(dual runway) instance would allow PAF to mount continous sorties(think two landing two departing) and secondly allows a wider dispersal of it's assets making the counter air strike role veeeerrryyy difficult for India.Add to that Highway airstrips and atleast in counter airstrike IAFs day is made.