Pacific Islands - Polynesia and Melanesia.

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Yep, the difference is that the Ukrainians arn't bombing or shelling the crap out of Russian cities.;)
I’m sure if they could they would. Somewhat surprising that’s nobody has given them some longer range missiles.

@KiwiRob

You need to justify this claim as it appears to be inflammatory. What evidence do you have that Ukraine would resort to targeting of cities (and hence civilians) as your post suggests. If you cannot justify this within 24 hours I will delete this post and assign a penalty.

alexsa
 
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oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I’m sure if they could they would. Somewhat surprising that’s nobody has given them some longer range missiles.
I'm not. It opens thee donor up to the accusation that they are using Ukraine as a proxy to attack Russia. Yes, I know Putin is already claiming that, but with little real basis for the claim.

oldsig127
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
One aspect of the Solomam/China agreement needing further discussion relates to internal political machinations.
The deal was negotiated in great secrecy and not all of Sogavare’s cabinet were aware. The link suggests the deal was solely drafted by the Chinese and simply presented to Sogavare.
The opposition leader, Mathew Wale does not agree with the deal and sees it as a means to ensure the PM stays in power, protecting him from possible uprisings by Malaitians, (Malaita Island is the biggest population centre in the Solomons by far and anti Chinese and anti PM Sogavare)
Malaitians we’re largely responsible in leading the anti Chinese riots in the past. The also rejected a Chinese attempt to lease the port of Tulagi in Malaita.
My biased hunch is that Sogavare couldn’t care less about geopolitical circumstance, he simply wants to enshrine himself as Solomon Is PM and cash in as a result.
Under these circumstances Australia and the US can do little to convince him to change.
 

Rock the kasbah

Active Member
One aspect of the Solomam/China agreement needing further discussion relates to internal political machinations.
The deal was negotiated in great secrecy and not all of Sogavare’s cabinet were aware. The link suggests the deal was solely drafted by the Chinese and simply presented to Sogavare.
The opposition leader, Mathew Wale does not agree with the deal and sees it as a means to ensure the PM stays in power, protecting him from possible uprisings by Malaitians, (Malaita Island is the biggest population centre in the Solomons by far and anti Chinese and anti PM Sogavare)
Malaitians we’re largely responsible in leading the anti Chinese riots in the past. The also rejected a Chinese attempt to lease the port of Tulagi in Malaita.
My biased hunch is that Sogavare couldn’t care less about geopolitical circumstance, he simply wants to enshrine himself as Solomon Is PM and cash in as a result.
Under these circumstances Australia and the US can do little to convince him to change.
I totally agree
I'm waiting to see what this has to do with fisheries
The biggest untouched fishing area in the world just happens to be the Solomon's
Biggest fishing fleet in the world is Chinese
Should be fantastic for a country that has nothing when it comes to food
God forbid a Solomon island villager paddles out in his canoe to catch brekky before the kids head to school
I am sorry to our children and grandchildren but this must stop
No more
It scares me so much that I think this
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Yeah, with China basing potentially their fishing fleets in the Solomons it will be open season on the pacific islands including Nz.

Netflix documentry Seaspiracy pointed out the scale of Chinas fishing fleet. Thousands of vessels.Often backed up by Chinas "coastguard" vessels.So far from home?

Incredible that those nets leave nothing behind too, it's pretty much strip mining the seabed too the depth they go.

I had a feeling this would escalate pretty quickly when the Chinese govt dropped there one child rule , tens of millions of extra mouths to feed every year.

So exploit those who can't, or in our case wont protect themselves.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The hypocrisy of the Solomon Islands PM in criticising Australia’s climate policy is breathtaking.
Chinese timber companies are gradually denuding the nation of its rainforest and exporting their bounty back to China.
China is the Solomon’s largest trading partner and the trade is mostly timber.
.
So much for Songavare’s climate change concerns.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #250
IMO that’s exactly what they are doing. This is very much a proxy war.
If it is indeed a proxy war, it's a proxy war by Putin on Europe and NATO and not necessarily in that order. Putin is the root cause of the current war, and the 2014 situation, the 2008 Georgian war and the Transnistrian situation in Moldova. Maybe you should read some of the stuff he has written.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #251
In November 2019 the Solomon Islands Solomon Islands Minister for Communication and Aviation Peter Shanel Agovaka signed a Memorandum Of Understanding with AVIC at Yanliang, near Xi'an in central China. The MOU was for AVIC to upgrade almost three dozen airstrips in Solomon Islands as part of an ambitious plan to transform the Pacific Islands country into an "aeronautical hub" for the region. In return The Solomon Islands would acquire six aircraft from AVIC's civil aircraft manufacturing division. AVIC is a CCP / PLA owned aerospace company that manufactures aircraft, missiles and other aerospace related material. The link below has a link to a leaked copy of the actual document.

Leaked documents reveal Chinese company's aviation plans for Solomon Islands to become a 'regional hub' - ABC News

Most of us in the region know our WW2 history about how strategically important the Solomon Islands was to both sides in the conflict. Significant Japanese forces were still active near the Solomon Islands (Rabaul) right up until the Japanese surrender in August 1945, tying up considerable allied manpower and equipment in keeping them contained.

Whilst it appears that the pandemic has delayed any further action on the MOU, it is concerning that such an effort appears to going to be expended in such an upgrade of the aviation facilities. Whilst it can rightfully be argued that some of the aviation facilities should be upgraded, this should be done with the betterment of the islands populations in mind, and the provision of gainful employment for them undertaking the work. The quality of the work and facilities should also be the highest. Unfortunately for the locals none of that will happen, because experience of PRC foreign development projects such as this, has shown that PRC workers are shipped in for the workforce and the quality leaves a lot to be desired. Furthermore the imported workforce don't go out and spend their wages in the local economy.

Then there is the military and security aspect of this. Large modern aviation and port facilities built by the PRC in the Solomon Islands really mean only one thing - much desired air and naval bases in the far seas between the first and second island chains. It's past the Guam Island - Hawaii chain and sits astride the Australian & NZ SLOC to North America and Asia. It also gives a sub base for their SSNs, SSKs and even SSBNs if they want to move them out into the real deep blue of the Pacific Ocean. PLAN SSNs & SSKs operating out of Solomon Island bases would be bad enough. Between them and PLANAF ASW aircraft and H-6Ks, they could sanitise the region. Not good.
 

Rock the kasbah

Active Member
In November 2019 the Solomon Islands Solomon Islands Minister for Communication and Aviation Peter Shanel Agovaka signed a Memorandum Of Understanding with AVIC at Yanliang, near Xi'an in central China. The MOU was for AVIC to upgrade almost three dozen airstrips in Solomon Islands as part of an ambitious plan to transform the Pacific Islands country into an "aeronautical hub" for the region. In return The Solomon Islands would acquire six aircraft from AVIC's civil aircraft manufacturing division. AVIC is a CCP / PLA owned aerospace company that manufactures aircraft, missiles and other aerospace related material. The link below has a link to a leaked copy of the actual document.

Leaked documents reveal Chinese company's aviation plans for Solomon Islands to become a 'regional hub' - ABC News

Most of us in the region know our WW2 history about how strategically important the Solomon Islands was to both sides in the conflict. Significant Japanese forces were still active near the Solomon Islands (Rabaul) right up until the Japanese surrender in August 1945, tying up considerable allied manpower and equipment in keeping them contained.

Whilst it appears that the pandemic has delayed any further action on the MOU, it is concerning that such an effort appears to going to be expended in such an upgrade of the aviation facilities. Whilst it can rightfully be argued that some of the aviation facilities should be upgraded, this should be done with the betterment of the islands populations in mind, and the provision of gainful employment for them undertaking the work. The quality of the work and facilities should also be the highest. Unfortunately for the locals none of that will happen, because experience of PRC foreign development projects such as this, has shown that PRC workers are shipped in for the workforce and the quality leaves a lot to be desired. Furthermore the imported workforce don't go out and spend their wages in the local economy.

Then there is the military and security aspect of this. Large modern aviation and port facilities built by the PRC in the Solomon Islands really mean only one thing - much desired air and naval bases in the far seas between the first and second island chains. It's past the Guam Island - Hawaii chain and sits astride the Australian & NZ SLOC to North America and Asia. It also gives a sub base for their SSNs, SSKs and even SSBNs if they want to move them out into the real deep blue of the Pacific Ocean. PLAN SSNs & SSKs operating out of Solomon Island bases would be bad enough. Between them and PLANAF ASW aircraft and H-6Ks, they could sanitise the region. Not good.
I really appreciate this ngati mozart
The world has to know
Not just some yachty / surfer having a winge
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
Check this out
I know it's a communist tool but this is really taking the rhetoric to the next level of BS

Link deleted by Moderator.
Difficult to view that lot with any seriousness when they mistake an LHD for a Nimitz class and fail to dicern the difference between a helicopter and an F18.

But that, assuming some bright spark hasn't hacked the site for giggle value, in a microcosm shows one of the problems faced by those who do take these matters seriously; how do you deal with a public who are fed a diet of this, because it's not just the obvious Marxist fronts delivering this.
 
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kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Difficult to view that lot with any seriousness when they mistake an LHD for a Nimitz class and fail to dicern the difference between a helicopter and an F18.

But that, assuming some bright spark hasn't hacked the site for giggle value, in a microcosm shows one of the problems faced by those who do take these matters seriously; how do you deal with a public who are fed a diet of this, because it's not just the obvious Marxist fronts delivering this.

The same can be said of brain dead reporters who in the states ask the question why doesn't Biden ' do more' about Russia than the Billion dollars arms donated already and the hard sanctions

Some of them even expecting Us/alled boots on the ground and sending jetfighters over there.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
@KiwiRob has been banned for a month for what appears to be an inflammatory post based on assumption. The information put out by either side will be nuanced to their point of view but there is no evidence that Ukraine have any intention of a sustained attack residential areas inside Russia despite the fact they appear to have the ability. If that changes then it can be discussed.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Two days ago there was already some news showing us that the relationship between Australia and the Solomon Islands will not improve soon.


But now we got an even more spicy one.


A fresh video from 20 minutes ago.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
I have posted in #61 post in this thread on 2018. For some countries that goes with China, the attraction was and is Infrastructure Investment. We as outsiders can talk much on Chinese Infrastructure investment is 'debt trap' etc. However for many of those small countries, the fact remain nobody else willing to invest in the infrastructure as much as China does.

So unless Australia, NZ, or other Asian regionals willing to match that kind of Investment drive in basic infrastructure. Then China drive in South Pacific is just matter of time. Simply put, China talk to other powers that concern in South Pacific as 'Put up (money) or Shut up'.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I have posted in #61 post in this thread on 2018. For some countries that goes with China, the attraction was and is Infrastructure Investment. We as outsiders can talk much on Chinese Infrastructure investment is 'debt trap' etc. However for many of those small countries, the fact remain nobody else willing to invest in the infrastructure as much as China does.

So unless Australia, NZ, or other Asian regionals willing to match that kind of Investment drive in basic infrastructure. Then China drive in South Pacific is just matter of time. Simply put, China talk to other powers that concern in South Pacific as 'Put up (money) or Shut up'.
New tollroads, bridges, high speed trains, harbours and airports are prestige projects, and have the potential to increase the greatness and glory of some politicians, but willing to accept debt traps is just selling your country to china.

Other countries are maybe not interested in building new infrastructure in other countries because of the costs and the unlikeliness of make profits from it. But for china it is an investment, because of the huge possibilities of the expansion of power and influence.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
But for china it is an investment, because of the huge possibilities of the expansion of power and influence.
Debt trap will remain to be seen if all of those Chinese Investment in infrastructure turn out to be like that. Investment in infrastructure will not going to pay out for long term. However infrastructure is a 'hook' to catch other investment.

For China it is a ground entry to put other investments related to resources in that particullar area. Like in Africa, they build basic infrastructure on highway and railway network to support their investment in natural resources. In Solomon they invest in harbours to support their investments in fisheries and other natural resources.

What China do is always try to control the overall network. Yes it means they are potentially control the whole value chain. However for some smaller countries, what are the choices ? Either let China build it (and open their economy potential plus some employment) or doing nothing (as they don't have money to build the infrastructure).

It is back on each nation to construct equitable investment scheme with China. However for some smaller countries they are facing on total work out with China or doing nothing.

That's why I said for some time, if you want to stop China drive in South Pacific (or Africa, or other countries), then match their investments in infrastructure.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Two days ago there was already some news showing us that the relationship between Australia and the Solomon Islands will not improve soon.

"Solomon Islands PM Manasseh Sogavare takes another swipe at Australia, and says referring to his country as "our backyard" is offensive - particularly as this is where toilets are often located, and where rubbish is burnt".

I am unclear whether PM Sogavare's description of the word "backyard" is sincere or disingenuous (I suspect the latter so is also being insincere).

Certainly in somewhat alignment with PM Sogavare's experiences in his nation, for New Zealanders and Australians, certainly in "days of old" (eg well, well over 100 years ago) typically toilets were in a homes' backyard (for some older houses this is still true today although more than likely connected to municipal water and sewerage systems) and rubbish was burnt in one's backyard, but it never had negative connotations (in the way PM Sogavare is portraying it) as a home's backyard was also the garden, a place to relax amongst nature trees and birdlife and a place to grow fruit and vegetables i.e. food for the household. A backyard is a good thing.

However to clear up any possible misunderstandings over the phrase "back yard" in a regional sense (and in the way that PM Sogavre is implying when criticising Australia), in terms of the wider South Pacific for Australians and New Zealanders it simply means, as per some dictionary definitions:

In a place close to you, or in a situation that you are directly involved in

For contrast in places like for example Europe and Asia, many nations (and people and ethnicities etc) live relatively close to each other (from our Australian and NZ perspectives) and one may not be able to travel "too far" before coming across land borders preventing further travel.

On the other hand for Australia and NZ (and Pacific Island nations too) our perspective is different, we live (for a lack of a better description coming to mind) in a "maritime" environment in which distances, although vast, are natural and one understands/expects to travel these vast distances to get from one point to another.

This is "our" history, even pre-European colonisation, in which Pacific people travelled and navigated vast distances over the oceans in canoes (if using the NZ experience, the pre-European Maori when they settled in NZ several hundred years ago they still traveled to and from what is assumed to be the areas around the Cook Islands, French Polynesia and Easter Island (and likely, although separately, as in not from NZ but from the South East Pacific to Hawaii too).

(And for Australia too, as they are a continent, the people there take it as normal to travel (what we NZ'ers think as) vast distances, as if it is nothing! And the pre-European Aborigines traversed the continent over thousands of years, on foot)!

So in today's context for NZ and Australia, due to its closeness and cultural ties to Polynesia, Melanesia and Micronesia, we refer to the South Pacific as "our backyard" (and also as security guarantors).

(Note: I accept that there may be some negative "colonialism" connotations to the phrase too nowadays, where activists and academics may also take offense to the term "backyard", but that's a different matter altogether, being one of the modern activist/academic trend to disassociate from aspects of the past).

I doubt PM Sogavare is coming from this "activist/academic" perspective (for if he were then the CCP could be regarded as "colonial or "neo-colonial" too and he would be careful not to attract or link such potential criticism from or to his new "overlords").

I suspect PM Sogavare is possibly ramping up the rhetoric for domestic reasons (which he needs to be very careful of as many Solomon Islanders are not happy with CCP overtures in their islands and do respect the efforts of Australia, NZ, the US, Japan and Taiwan providing aid and development etc), but it's more likely that PM Sogavare is ramping up rhetoric to align with the CCP, his backers. The CCP are investing a lot of money in various projects in the Solomons and in particular the 2023 Pacific Games, which PM Sogavare sees as means to gain prestige (both for himself and the Solomons in a wider patriotic sense). When I get a chance I'll expand upon this.
 
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