P-8A Poseidon and the Future of ASW

[gf0012-aust]

Thanks for that explanation. The Indian purchase of the Canadian MAD makes sense with what you have said but the statement (wiki) that India is only the second nation after the US to buy it is at odds with the above.

bear in mind that India may have been a loud early buyer of the P8, but they're not getting the same access into some of the critical sets that some of the 5I's partners will get.

The Canadian MAD stinger was based on the S2 suite..... still a whole lot better than the sea dragon option on their "Mays"

 

[Twinblade]

Boeing Offers Medium-sized Maritime Surveillance Aircraft

Boeing Offers Medium-sized Maritime Surveillance Aircraft

Boeing today announced that it is offering a medium-sized Maritime Surveillance Aircraft (MSA) to the global market. MSA builds on technologies developed for Boeing's larger Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) platforms to provide a highly capable, low-risk and cost-effective ISR solution.

"The Boeing Maritime Surveillance Aircraft directly applies advanced, proven and fielded capabilities from our P-8, Airborne Warning and Control System, and Airborne Early Warning and Control programs to solve our international customers' maritime surveillance challenges," said Tim Peters, Boeing vice president and general manager, Surveillance and Engagement. "We've selected a preferred aircraft and are in discussions with a manufacturer about supplying and modifying their aircraft. We hope to have an announcement on that element by the end of this year."

Looks like Boeing is hell bent on getting the MRMR tender.

 

[RobWilliams]

Boeing Offers Medium-sized Maritime Surveillance Aircraft

Boeing Offers Medium-sized Maritime Surveillance Aircraft



Looks like Boeing is hell bent on getting the MRMR tender.

I was looking at that earlier, but my enthusiasm started to deviate after I read about it on FlightGlobal

FARNBOROUGH: Boeing offers medium maritime surveillance aircraft to international customers

The aircraft would not be armed, says Egan Greenstein, Boeing's director of business development for naval surveillance and engagement programmes. Nor would it retain the P-8's anti-submarine warfare capability.

To me, any MPA should have the ability to engage a target once it has located it + is cleared to do so.

 

[swerve]

Many MPAs are intended for surveillance and maybe SAR, not fighting. Fisheries patrol aircraft are not usually armed, for example.

They can be seen as akin to AEW aircraft, but with downward pointing sensors, or the border patrol aircraft (with fighter radars) operated by the USA.

 

[gf0012-aust]

To me, any MPA should have the ability to engage a target once it has located it + is cleared to do so.

aircraft in a BAMS role are now increasingly dual hatting the ISR capability, in fact the ISR shift started soon after the end of the cold war.

so BAMS has ended up (in some nations) being outsourced by some to contracting agencies or other govt agencies where the aircraft are unarmed.

its even more complicated by the emerging requirement to include unmanned assets in BAMS roles. in these cases there is a definite twitchy feeling about the legalities of armed unmanned assets. some of the future gen unmanned BAMS are as big as medium sized patrolies (eg F-27 sized)

I have been to briefs where armed unmanned BAMs were in future ORBAT constructs, but the legals side of it is still a long way off from being captured and every one made content.

the other issue for unarmed BAMs is the operational concept, eg they may be up and operating in a range ring where other offensive assets can be bought to bear within an acceptable time frame - not the same as immediate however.

the conops for unarmed BAMs may also dictate why its so - eg they're tasked for managing territory in the green and grey, so depth and offensive capability are not the priority

 

[RobWilliams]

Many MPAs are intended for surveillance and maybe SAR, not fighting. Fisheries patrol aircraft are not usually armed, for example.

They can be seen as akin to AEW aircraft, but with downward pointing sensors, or the border patrol aircraft (with fighter radars) operated by the USA.

Very true, but for me especially in regards to ASW (ASuW not so much), the capability for an MPA to strike back (in terms of all out war) when a sub is detected almost immediately is a critical capability as it may be the only time to engage the sub before it has a chance to do some serious damage to your own ships, it would be a potent advantage to have due to not having the delay of calling in ASW assets etc before the sub can 'escape'.

Besides, it probably wouldn't take much to fit an MPA with some Stingrays (or something akin to it) to be dropped from the aircraft as, AFAIK, they operate on their independent sonar so wouldn't it be a fairly inexpensive design, if the capacity to detect the thing is there of course, which this concept from Boeing cannot do sadly

 

[RobWilliams]

aircraft in a BAMS role are now increasingly dual hatting the ISR capability, in fact the ISR shift started soon after the end of the cold war.


the conops for unarmed BAMs may also dictate why its so - eg they're tasked for managing territory in the green and grey, so depth and offensive capability are not the priority

That does make complete sense, but what I was curious about was that it surely can't be particularly cost ineffective to give the aircraft a few weapons stations for something like a Mark 46/Stingray paired with the curreny available airbourne ASW tech around to give an MPA a (relatively) inexpensive boost to it's maratime capability?

Although, I am generally naff at making these cost assumptions

 

[USN_Spooky2]

Times have changed and many things have been reinvented smaller and better. Just because I don't see an old television antennae on your roof does not mean you don't have television. You could be wired with cable or have a satellite dish. Those of us who have new flat screen high definition televisions don't have a bloop tube either, many of us choosing the new LED LCDs...

The P-3 Orions were basically updated 1950s technology.... The sonar buoys have always been the key to finding submarines, not the very short range MAD... The MAD was like using a toy magnet to find a needle in a haystack...

Instead of losing ASW capabilities, the Poseidons increase ASW capabilities significantly....

Having spoken to enough P-3C drivers/crew, I think there is a lot of concern in the ASW community over the roles/capabilities of each aircraft.

Flying low/slow is an asset in ASW. It's an advantage... a big one. Being able to linger on station is far more advantageous than getting on station in a hurry. That's something the P-8 just can't compete with. Granted, she has more capable equipment... but the mission profile is significantly altered through limitations imposed by the airframe/engines.

 

[hauritz]

The aircraft would not be armed, says Egan Greenstein, Boeing's director of business development for naval surveillance and engagement programmes. Nor would it retain the P-8's anti-submarine warfare capability.

Sounds to me like they are offering a business jet and a set of binoculars.

 

[colay1]

Been some years but now new info is available that warrants waking up this thread. This article clarifies the USN approach to providing MAD capability to the P-8A.

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/01/bae-subhunting-drone.html

BAE Systems to develop MAD ASW drone to help Navy P-8A find submarines from high altitudes

ARLINGTON, Va., 14 Jan. 2015. Anti-submarine warfare (ASW) experts at BAE Systems are developing an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) sensor payload able to look for submerged enemy submarines by detecting small variations in the Earth's magnetic field.

Officials of the U.S. Office of Naval Research (ONR) in Arlington, Va., announced an $8.9 million contract this week to the BAE Systems Electronic Systems segment in Merrimack, N.H., for the High Altitude ASW (HAASW) Unmanned Targeting Air System (UTAS) program for the Navy Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol jet.

HAASW UTAS seeks to integrate a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) and algorithms for use on an air-launched drone that the P-8A will use to detect and pinpoint enemy submarines.

more at the link.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I get to have a close look at ours in a few weeks

 

[colay1]

A military aircraft whose cost goes down? Boeing churns out P-8 sub hunters based on 737 | The Seattle Times


I hadn't realized the extent to which the P-8 structure has been reinforced compared to it's airliner cousin. Props fo Boeing for a smooth-running program which contrasts with the difficulties characterizing the next gen tanker.

 

[gf0012-aust]

A military aircraft whose cost goes down? Boeing churns out P-8 sub hunters based on 737 | The Seattle Times


I hadn't realized the extent to which the P-8 structure has been rei forced compared to it's airliner cousin. Props fo Boeing for a smooth-running program which contrasts with the difficulties characterizing the next gen tanker.

yep, they are far from being a converted airliner - they are a discrete build

 

[zhaktronz]

Having spoken to enough P-3C drivers/crew, I think there is a lot of concern in the ASW community over the roles/capabilities of each aircraft.

Flying low/slow is an asset in ASW. It's an advantage... a big one. Being able to linger on station is far more advantageous than getting on station in a hurry. That's something the P-8 just can't compete with. Granted, she has more capable equipment... but the mission profile is significantly altered through limitations imposed by the airframe/engines.

Low and slow is getting less important as drone capability gets cheaper. Let's say you want to go and conduct a visual inspection on a contact. In a p3 you'd be looking at a low altitude pass.

These days you could just drop a disposable drone from 30k feet to do the inspection and keep the plane out of harms way. He'll a disposable drone is probably cheaper than the fuel you'd burn climbing back up to cruise altitude(!)

It won't surprise me one bit if we see JDAM or even quadcopters kits that fit to sonobouys to allow precision lay downs from altitude in a few years.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Low and slow is getting less important as drone capability gets cheaper. Let's say you want to go and conduct a visual inspection on a contact. In a p3 you'd be looking at a low altitude pass.

These days you could just drop a disposable drone from 30k feet to do the inspection and keep the plane out of harms way. He'll a disposable drone is probably cheaper than the fuel you'd burn climbing back up to cruise altitude(!)

It won't surprise me one bit if we see JDAM or even quadcopters kits that fit to sonobouys to allow precision lay downs from altitude in a few years.

More to the point, if you speak to ex P3 drivers and crew who have transitioned, they put it in a completely different league. In capability terms the ASW and overall capability is a golden mile ahead of the P3's

In fact in a lot of areas the P8's ISR is superior to a lot of other countries dedicated ISR assets

The P8 has to be looked at through the prism that is way more than just ASW, and that it literally is a generational and superior capability across the board.

 

[John Newman]

More to the point, if you speak to ex P3 drivers and crew who have transitioned, they put it in a completely different league. In capability terms the ASW and overall capability is a golden mile ahead of the P3's

In fact in a lot of areas the P8's ISR is superior to a lot of other countries dedicated ISR assets

The P8 has to be looked at through the prism that is way more than just ASW, and that it literally is a generational and superior capability across the board.

Gf, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but as I understand it, the P-8A will be much like the F-35 and E-7A, in that they are all very much software driven airframes and will continue to be so.

Over the life of those platforms, the various enhancements (improved and new capabilities), will be far less about swapping out one piece of hardware and replacing with another, but more about spiral or block upgrades to either add or enhance capabilities purely by a software upgrade.

I'm sure at certain points in their various lives, hardware upgrades will occur, but most of the capability growth will be software.

Is that a fairly accurate statement?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Gf, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but as I understand it, the P-8A will be much like the F-35 and E-7A, in that they are all very much software driven airframes and will continue to be so.

Over the life of those platforms, the various enhancements (improved and new capabilities), will be far less about swapping out one piece of hardware and replacing with another, but more about spiral or block upgrades to either add or enhance capabilities purely by a software upgrade.

I'm sure at certain points in their various lives, hardware upgrades will occur, but most of the capability growth will be software.

Is that a fairly accurate statement?

fundamentally yes

to give you a rwally oblique example

every one of the worlds subsea transnational cables are now optical fibre
some of the hubs are original launch points, and their cables have never been changed out
the throughput for those legacy sites have increased 20+ fold in the last 25 years - and all the improvements have come through algorithm and software improvements

this isn't meant to give you a parallel example, but to show how the art of the possible comes through development with a minimum of impact on the core capability and hardware.

 

[Blackshoe]

HAASW UTAS seeks to integrate a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) and algorithms for use on an air-launched drone that the P-8A will use to detect and pinpoint enemy submarines.

I guess MAD is useful after all!

Who knew?

 

[Ranger25]

I guess MAD is useful after all!

Who knew?

IMO another of the huge advances of the P8 will be it's ability to launch ASW from altitude. The new Boeing wing kit is adaptable to not only the MK 54. Will give the P8 significant standoff (60km of glide prior to entering the water) keeping it out of harms way while conserving fuel.

The P8 can be used as a flying magazine with multiple other sources targeting and it delivering munitions.


Boeing Showcases New Sub-Hunting Torpedo

 

[swerve]

fundamentally yes

to give you a rwally oblique example

every one of the worlds subsea transnational cables are now optical fibre
some of the hubs are original launch points, and their cables have never been changed out
the throughput for those legacy sites have increased 20+ fold in the last 25 years - and all the improvements have come through algorithm and software improvements

this isn't meant to give you a parallel example, but to show how the art of the possible comes through development with a minimum of impact on the core capability and hardware.

Like my internet connection. The fibre to my house was laid a long time ago, & hasn't been changed. The download speed has gone from low hundreds of KB to 76 MB.