Options for Brazil's navy

[contedicavour]

Please folks, we're talking Brazilian Navy here...

fftopic

I fully agree on the needs for social spending, and on the need for the government to restore order, etc, however the purpose of this thread never was to increase defense spending in Brazil, just to find out what can be bought with the small existing budget.

cheers

 

[Jtimes2]

Thks Big-E, exactly the sort of assessment I was looking for.
The Spruance would be a costly and uselles naval platform for Brazil, while the OHP would be a good idea if the Royal Navy doesn't discard any more frigates.
Do you confirm the USN remaining OHPs have retired the SM-1 launcher ? That makes the USN OHPs gun frigates right ? Since Harpoons and SM-1 needed the Mk13 launcher ...

cheers

Yep, it is gone. Here is a photo of USS John L Hall from March of this year:
http://static.flickr.com/47/114449676_08177df0f0_o.jpg
As you pointed out; loss of the Mk13 also means no more Harpoon. The Mk75 76mm gun is going to be retired near the end of the decade itself; when the USN and USCG switch over to the common 57mm. The Navy isn't redesignating them "FF" instead of "FFG" however; as it claims that the Penguin missiles carried by the Seahawks fill the guided missile criteria........maybe they just don't want to buy everybody new embroidered uniform ball caps.

Australia still has the Mk13 on their OHP clones but they have also installed a small VLS for ESSM to prepare for the possibility that the SM-1 spare parts might run out someday.

As for Brazil; they might have to wait if they want Perrys: the days of there being an endless supply of decom'ed USN frigates is over. There are only two decommissioned FFG's left (USS George Phillip and USS Sides) and Portugal is eyeing them; Bahrain also wants one as a parts hulk for Sabha. The remaining missile-less long hull ships are all being actively used for things like drug ops, "flag-showing" visits, etc to free up other ships for frontline tasks; and the USN has slowed down the decom schedule dramatically.

 

[Sea Toby]

The US Navy has thousands of Mk41 VLS cells in their fleet of CGs and DDGs, the Mk 13 launchers and their magazines of the FFGs have become somewhat dated. The FFGs have never been liked by the US Navy, having less range, fewer missiles, much less dated missiles than the larger warships. When they were built they provided a small area defense anti-air missile capability for the ships they escorted, today most of the replenishment and amphibious ships they escorted have better self defense anti-air missile capability with their Mk 21 RAMs. The longer hulled FFGs are useful today for their ASW capabilty with their towed arrays and duo ASW helicopters.

As soon as there are enough of the new LCS ships built, the FFGs will be decommissioned. I don't think any navy will want them without the Mk 13 launchers except as a spare parts source for the shorter hulled FFGs that were transferred with their Mk 13 launchers. The Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles have the range of a SM-1 missile allowing the US Navy to discard them. In 15 years most of these will have reached their payoff point too, around the same time the US Navy stops supporting the SM-1 missiles. Frankly, I don't think any of the FFGs will last 40 years in any navy although many will surpass 30 years.

It appears the US Navy is pouring all of its future anti-air resources into the SM-3, ESSM, and RAM missiles.

 

[Big-E]

As soon as there are enough of the new LCS ships built, the FFGs will be decommissioned. I don't think any navy will want them without the Mk 13 launchers except as a spare parts source for the shorter hulled FFGs that were transferred with their Mk 13 launchers. The Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles have the range of a SM-1 missile allowing the US Navy to discard them. In 15 years most of these will have reached their payoff point too, around the same time the US Navy stops supporting the SM-1 missiles. Frankly, I don't think any of the FFGs will last 40 years in any navy although many will surpass 30 years.

It appears the US Navy is pouring all of its future anti-air resources into the SM-3, ESSM, and RAM missiles.

Speaking of OHP resale I think the Brazilian navy would be the prime buyer of these platforms. I'm sure you read my ASW debate earlier in the thread of why OHP fits the Brazilian Navy like a glove. Just b/c the Mk 13 launcher is gone doesn't mean it can't be replaced with something else. Brazil would want a launcher with weapons they operate already making the buy even more perfect. 30 years out of a used buy is an excellent return! Ever heard of the axiom "one mans garbage is another mans treasure?" Just b/c OHPs are USN garbage doesn't mean they couldn't fit nicely into the Brazilain Navy.

 

[contedicavour]

Yep, it is gone. Here is a photo of USS John L Hall from March of this year:
http://static.flickr.com/47/114449676_08177df0f0_o.jpg
As you pointed out; loss of the Mk13 also means no more Harpoon. The Mk75 76mm gun is going to be retired near the end of the decade itself; when the USN and USCG switch over to the common 57mm. The Navy isn't redesignating them "FF" instead of "FFG" however; as it claims that the Penguin missiles carried by the Seahawks fill the guided missile criteria........maybe they just don't want to buy everybody new embroidered uniform ball caps.

Australia still has the Mk13 on their OHP clones but they have also installed a small VLS for ESSM to prepare for the possibility that the SM-1 spare parts might run out someday.

As for Brazil; they might have to wait if they want Perrys: the days of there being an endless supply of decom'ed USN frigates is over. There are only two decommissioned FFG's left (USS George Phillip and USS Sides) and Portugal is eyeing them; Bahrain also wants one as a parts hulk for Sabha. The remaining missile-less long hull ships are all being actively used for things like drug ops, "flag-showing" visits, etc to free up other ships for frontline tasks; and the USN has slowed down the decom schedule dramatically.

Thanks a lot for this very accurate information !
I am still shocked that the USN OHPs are reduced to an armament that a 40-metre patrol boat could match... at least if you exclude ASW, of course. These ships should rather be handed over to the USCG for the drug ops and other non-frontline tasks.
Thks again for the information,

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Speaking of OHP resale I think the Brazilian navy would be the prime buyer of these platforms. I'm sure you read my ASW debate earlier in the thread of why OHP fits the Brazilian Navy like a glove. Just b/c the Mk 13 launcher is gone doesn't mean it can't be replaced with something else. Brazil would want a launcher with weapons they operate already making the buy even more perfect. 30 years out of a used buy is an excellent return! Ever heard of the axiom "one mans garbage is another mans treasure?" Just b/c OHPs are USN garbage doesn't mean they couldn't fit nicely into the Brazilain Navy.

Fully agree
Brazil just updated their NIteroi ('70s vintage frigates build by England) with Aspide SAM missiles (basically the Sea Sparrow, although it has been significantly updated by the Italian Alenia company of Finmeccanica Group) and RTN-20 and -30 radars.
These could all be fitted onto ex USN Perrys, generating a decent AAW cover, although we would be miles away from SM-2 IIIA or Aster-30.

cheers

 

[Big-E]

Fully agree
Brazil just updated their NIteroi ('70s vintage frigates build by England) with Aspide SAM missiles (basically the Sea Sparrow, although it has been significantly updated by the Italian Alenia company of Finmeccanica Group) and RTN-20 and -30 radars.
These could all be fitted onto ex USN Perrys, generating a decent AAW cover, although we would be miles away from SM-2 IIIA or Aster-30.

cheers

What about an Aussie type OHP refit...

 

[rickusn]

"and the USN has slowed down the decom schedule dramatically."

This was done because the decision was made to retire the Spruances prematurely.

The plan now is one to go in 2010, 17 to go from 2012-2013. And the last 12 by 2018.

Yep another mass decommissioning.

Personally I think it will happen sooner.

They have extremely limited utility.

Brazil might get lucky if the UK has another round of cuts another four or five Type 23's may become available.

And IMHO would be a better fit than the OHP's.

I see at least one of the ex-USN Garcia class frigates are still in service the D27 Para:

http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/ade...derex06_047.jpg

 

[contedicavour]

What about an Aussie type OHP refit...

It would be a very good update, ESSM being better in range than our Aspide but ESSM costs more and the Brazilian Navy would have to support 2 different types of SAMs on its ships. A bit complicated.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

This was done because the decision was made to retire the Spruances prematurely.

The plan now is one to go in 2010, 17 to go from 2012-2013. And the last 12 by 2018.

Yep another mass decommissioning.

Personally I think it will happen sooner.

They have extremely limited utility.

Brazil might get lucky if the UK has another round of cuts another four or five Type 23's may become available.

And IMHO would be a better fit than the OHP's.

I see at least one of the ex-USN Garcia class frigates are still in service the D27 Para:

http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/ade...derex06_047.jpg

The USN can still use the VLS Spruance for TLAMs and ASROCs (and SM-2s if Burkes or Ticonderogas are around). I would keep them until the new DDX come about...