Oldest Navy

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Afloat yes, but not oldest still in commission.

HMS VICTORY was commissioned in 1778. She's in permanent drydock, but is still a commissioned vessel as of then. But I suppose all the Brits have to do is flood the drydock and she'll be in water ;)

Edit to add: Strange they don't actually do that. I'm sure some fresh water with additives wouldn't hurt her too much if the correct preparations were made.
Correct, the HMS Victory is the oldest dame still commissioned and IIRC she is a flagship. Have not seen her personally (yet) but still able to turn a head or two. USS Constitution is definately able to, though I have not seen her under sail. That would be a sight to see, as would the delivery of a gun salute from her decks.

-Cheers
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Correct, the HMS Victory is the oldest dame still commissioned and IIRC she is a flagship. Have not seen her personally (yet) but still able to turn a head or two. USS Constitution is definately able to, though I have not seen her under sail. That would be a sight to see, as would the delivery of a gun salute from her decks.

-Cheers
I just had a quick look on google map, i counted 16 dry docks at Portsmouth Naval base, 2 or 3 of them, including the one with HMS Warrior in it can no longer directly access the ocean as they have had a wharf extended between them and the ocean. Right next to HMS Victory is what looks to be an undercover dry dock for light warships. The HMS Victory dock should be floodable and even put back to sea assuming that the lock mechanism still works.
 

hvidtfeldt

New Member
I just had a quick look on google map, i counted 16 dry docks at Portsmouth Naval base, 2 or 3 of them, including the one with HMS Warrior in it can no longer directly access the ocean as they have had a wharf extended between them and the ocean. Right next to HMS Victory is what looks to be an undercover dry dock for light warships. The HMS Victory dock should be floodable and even put back to sea assuming that the lock mechanism still works.

The Lock mechanism is the smallest challenge, old wooden ships like H.M.S Victory and the danish Frigate Jylland are very fragile ships.
Their hulle are suspectible to sagging and hogging (even after 5-10 years of service after launch).
Thats why they have been put on land where the hulls can be supported better than in water, why many of their cannons have been replaced by dummy guns and in some cases equipped the solid masts with hollow steelmasts disguised as solid wooden masts.
It is amazing that the US navy still manage to keep the USS Constitution in the water at all. I reallywant to visit that ship once in my life :)

Both the Victory and the Jylland are awesome sights and woth a visit if you are in the vincity.

Link to pictures of Jylland
http://picasaweb.google.com/fsoredk/FregattenJylland#
 

Dalregementet

New Member
I'd be willing to believe the Royal Danish Navy might be the oldest continuos organization. Denmark was established about 980 and has operated naval forces since.
Sweden is the oldest kingdom of the Nordic countries and thus had the first fleet. Since Sweden never have been occupied, we have the oldest continous fleet in the world.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A Navy is an organisation not an idea, it does not have to be state owned or operated. When the organisation ceases to exist it does not continue to age. Just like a person it is dead and its age at death set forever. A new organisation may arise at a later date and claim a connection to the predeceased organisation but it is not the same body. It may even mimic its name and appearance but none of these things overcomes those years of non-existence.

So no the Greeks do not have the oldest Navy in the world because there is no direct connection between the contemporary force and the ancient classical forces. The Vikings and Polynesians don’t count as an entire Navy. Organised forces along Navy lines existed amongst these national groups but they were many small structures that did not last much longer than the charismatic leaders that formed them.

Some Navies can survive being destroyed in battle or even occupied if the institution is retained and as an organised body of men. For example the Royal Norwegian Navy survived WW2 as a distinct force operating out of Great Britain. It is the continuity of service that defines the age of an organisation.

What became the Royal Navy was first established in 1155 from the Cinque Ports charter. While previous Anglo-Saxon Kings had formed navies and there is indirect connection between them and the eventual Norman Navy they can not be considered the Royal Navy because they were disbanded on several occasions and then obviously fought against the Norman Invasion. Since 1155 there is a direction organisational history of bodies of men and women committed to the Naval service for the English and later British crown.

The Swedish Navy can demonstrate a continuous history of organisation dating back to 1522.
 

Dalregementet

New Member
A Navy is an organisation not an idea, it does not have to be state owned or operated. When the organisation ceases to exist it does not continue to age. Just like a person it is dead and its age at death set forever. A new organisation may arise at a later date and claim a connection to the predeceased organisation but it is not the same body. It may even mimic its name and appearance but none of these things overcomes those years of non-existence.

So no the Greeks do not have the oldest Navy in the world because there is no direct connection between the contemporary force and the ancient classical forces. The Vikings and Polynesians don’t count as an entire Navy. Organised forces along Navy lines existed amongst these national groups but they were many small structures that did not last much longer than the charismatic leaders that formed them.

Some Navies can survive being destroyed in battle or even occupied if the institution is retained and as an organised body of men. For example the Royal Norwegian Navy survived WW2 as a distinct force operating out of Great Britain. It is the continuity of service that defines the age of an organisation.

What became the Royal Navy was first established in 1155 from the Cinque Ports charter. While previous Anglo-Saxon Kings had formed navies and there is indirect connection between them and the eventual Norman Navy they can not be considered the Royal Navy because they were disbanded on several occasions and then obviously fought against the Norman Invasion. Since 1155 there is a direction organisational history of bodies of men and women committed to the Naval service for the English and later British crown.

The Swedish Navy can demonstrate a continuous history of organisation dating back to 1522.
"Vikings"...? Is that your label for warriors from the Nordic countries? You´re on thin ice when you talk about vikings as a group, because you don´t seem to be familiar with Swedish or Nordic history at all.

The oldest kingdom in Scandinavia is Sweden (mentioned 100 AD by Tacitus), followed by Norway (873) and then Denmark (980). Sweden at viking age was called Svitjod or the kingdom of Svea - Svea Rike. The defence was based on the Ledungen, a Naval organisation with an early warning system of fires/beacons along the coastal regions.

Each Swedish province was divided in Hundare (hundreds), each Hundare was divided into Hamna, each Hamna consisted of 2 villages, each village was divided in 4 attungar. Each person who owned an attung had, as a duty, to particpate in the Ledung. This was according to the law, in this case "the Uppland law". So, for the Swedish Province of Södermanland who had 12 hundare, the province contributed with 1200 men and 48 ships. All in all, Sweden had 280 ships and 2200 men - all well organised! The province of Roden/Roslagen (the province after which russia is named) contributed with 6 ships. The northern Hundare Umeå and Bygdeå was relieved from Ledung as they defended Swedens northern border against Novgorod.

A permanent watch along the coast line, vårdkasesystemet, alerted the Ledung if an enemy was approaching. The last time the Vårdkasesystem was used in Sweden was 1854.

At about 1040, a large part of the Ledung fleet sailed off east under the command of Ingvar, who belonged to the Swedish royal family. The fleet went as far as the caspian sea. There are 26 runic stones that mention this voyage because many of the men died, mostly of dieases.

ÞæiR foru drængila They travelled valiantly
fiarri at gulli far for gold,
ok austarla and in the east
ærni gafu, gave (food) to the eagle.
dou sunnarla (They) died in the south
a Særklandi. in Serkland.

Serkland = Abbasid Caliphate

The Attundaland part of the Ledung stayed for the defence of Sweden with 32 ships and 800 men.

Sweden has never been conquered thus enabling Sweden having a continous fleet to this very day. When you talk about 1522, that is when the "modern" Swedish navy is created, after the break down of the "Kalmar union" - nothing else.

There´s a lot of myths and stereotypes about Vikings, i.e.warriors from Sweden, Norway Iceland and Denmark, due to poor knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suiones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sweden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidangr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Runestones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serkland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attundaland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roslagen
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upplandslagen
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Correct, the HMS Victory is the oldest dame still commissioned and IIRC she is a flagship. Have not seen her personally (yet) but still able to turn a head or two. USS Constitution is definately able to, though I have not seen her under sail. That would be a sight to see, as would the delivery of a gun salute from her decks.

-Cheers
The Constitution gets underway several times a year actually, she doesn't go far but she does sail under her own power.
http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/FAQ.htm

Q. Is the ship still seaworthy?
A. Yes. The USS Constitution travels out into the harbor up to the Castle Island area several times a year. The general public can enter a lottery drawing to be selected as guests onboard the ship while it’s underway
It is called a "turn around cruise" where they turn the ship around so it weathers evenly.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The Constitution gets underway several times a year actually, she doesn't go far but she does sail under her own power.
http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/FAQ.htm

It is called a "turn around cruise" where they turn the ship around so it weathers evenly.
Agreed. Though IIRC current plans are that she is not going to be going out to sea again until 2010. Not sure if there is work being done on her, etc. Still, she is a sight to see tied up alongside. Went aboard her when I was young enough to have been a powder monkey.:D

-Cheers
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
"Vikings"...? Is that your label for warriors from the Nordic countries? You´re on thin ice when you talk about vikings as a group, because you don´t seem to be familiar with Swedish or Nordic history at all.

The oldest kingdom in Scandinavia is Sweden (mentioned 100 AD by Tacitus), followed by Norway (873) and then Denmark (980). Sweden at viking age was called Svitjod or the kingdom of Svea - Svea Rike. The defence was based on the Ledungen, a Naval organisation with an early warning system of fires/beacons along the coastal regions.

Each Swedish province was divided in Hundare (hundreds), each Hundare was divided into Hamna, each Hamna consisted of 2 villages, each village was divided in 4 attungar. Each person who owned an attung had, as a duty, to particpate in the Ledung. This was according to the law, in this case "the Uppland law". So, for the Swedish Province of Södermanland who had 12 hundare, the province contributed with 1200 men and 48 ships. All in all, Sweden had 280 ships and 2200 men - all well organised! The province of Roden/Roslagen (the province after which russia is named) contributed with 6 ships. The northern Hundare Umeå and Bygdeå was relieved from Ledung as they defended Swedens northern border against Novgorod.

A permanent watch along the coast line, vårdkasesystemet, alerted the Ledung if an enemy was approaching. The last time the Vårdkasesystem was used in Sweden was 1854.

At about 1040, a large part of the Ledung fleet sailed off east under the command of Ingvar, who belonged to the Swedish royal family. The fleet went as far as the caspian sea. There are 26 runic stones that mention this voyage because many of the men died, mostly of dieases.

ÞæiR foru drængila They travelled valiantly
fiarri at gulli far for gold,
ok austarla and in the east
ærni gafu, gave (food) to the eagle.
dou sunnarla (They) died in the south
a Særklandi. in Serkland.

Serkland = Abbasid Caliphate

The Attundaland part of the Ledung stayed for the defence of Sweden with 32 ships and 800 men.

Sweden has never been conquered thus enabling Sweden having a continous fleet to this very day. When you talk about 1522, that is when the "modern" Swedish navy is created, after the break down of the "Kalmar union" - nothing else.

There´s a lot of myths and stereotypes about Vikings, i.e.warriors from Sweden, Norway Iceland and Denmark, due to poor knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suiones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sweden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidangr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Runestones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serkland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attundaland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roslagen
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upplandslagen
The 'age' of a nation is somewhat far afield from the original question/comment of 'oldest navy'

Checked Wikipedia and the information (such as it is...) does not provide a date for when 'Sweden' became a nation. In fact, it even comments...

A foundation date of the nation Sweden cannot be determined with any degree of certainty, since it evolved from a warfare center of power, Svea Rike, centered in old Uppsala, which might have had many increases and decreases in power and influence.
AND

About 1000, the first certain king over Svea and Göta Riken is documented to be Olof Skötkonung, but the further history is obscure with kings whose periods of regency and actual power is unclear.
This would seem to indicate that considerable question exists with respect to exactly how old the nation of Sweden is. There is no doubt that the area had settlements since the Stone Age, but when these family settlements, and then later villages, towns and cities coalesced into something that is recognizably Sweden is an open question. Therefore I would not take the existence of some place that coresponds to Svea Rike by Tacitus as proof of an early origin of 'Sweden', as other locations in Europe boast similar historical accounts of settlements which predate when an area became a 'nation'. However, I will be looking into it further, just to satisfy my curiousity.

IMO more relevant to the topic of 'Oldest Navy' though is the idea that a Navy is an organization. Specifically a group of ships collected to engage in warfare at sea.

Looking back at the (British) Royal Navy and the history of its predecessors, there are a number of dates which come up, though it is arguable as to which date is the 'correct' one in determining the establishment of what is now the Royal Navy. One of, if not the 'first' British navies was founded by King Aelfredh or Alfred the Great around ~897 in response to Danish attacks upon English lands, indeed he is also created with designing a ship which appeared to be intended specifically for combat, when most 'naval' vessels of the day were converted merchantmen. However, like later navies established by different sovereigns, the force was allowed to languish until it dissapated. Over the years, various kings with aggressive foreign policies created or rebuilt navies (Edward III and Henry V for exampe), or as circumstances dictated (King John following the lost of the French possessions). While it does appear as though the Cinque Charter in 1155 created a naval force, what I have read suggests that it was not a permanent force, rather the Cinque Ports were obligated to provide ships in wartime. Also, the ships provided were generally merchant vessels and transports, some of which were converted to what passed for warships at the time on an as needed basis. This would effectively mean that there was no continuity of a force in-being.

IMO the modern foundation/continuous history of the Royal Navy (still trying to locate when it became 'Royal' I am sure it is in one of my books...) can be directly traced to one of three periods, with the each having some points of arguable merit. The earliest is the reign of Henry VIII, who built up the English navy following the Protestant Reformation of the 1530's and resulting hostilities with France and Spain. Under Henry VIII's reign, it reached peak strength in 1546 of 58 ships with a total displacement over 12,000 tons, including the famous Mary Rose and the 1,000 ton Henry Grace A Dieu (aka Great Harry). Two things Henry VIII did was create the Admiralty and Navy Board to look after the ships.

The other two possible periods are either during the Interregnum following the beheading of Charles I, or upon Charles II assuming the crown. The events I will refer to could possibly have happened in either period, my sources are somewhat unclear as to the timing. As late as the reign of Charles I, the ships of the English navy were paid for and maintained at the expense of the sovereign, with additional warships provided by private owners as privateers. An good example would be of the 197 English ships which sailed to engage the Spanish Armada in 1588, only 34 belonged to Queen Elizabeth I. At some point either during the Commonwealth of England (1649-1660) or following the crowning of Charles II in 1660, the cost of providing and maintaining the ships of the navy was moved from that of the sovereign to that of the nation as a whole. Also, and this I believe occurred during Charles II's reign, the ships officers started being put on half-pay when not actively serving, instead of being dismissed from the service when not actively commissioned. This established the navy as a possible career for officers and allowed for the creation of a body of professional officers.

-Cheers
 

Dalregementet

New Member
The 'age' of a nation is somewhat far afield from the original question/comment of 'oldest navy'

Checked Wikipedia and the information (such as it is...) does not provide a date for when 'Sweden' became a nation.

This would seem to indicate that considerable question exists with respect to exactly how old the nation of Sweden is. There is no doubt that the area had settlements since the Stone Age, but when these family settlements, and then later villages, towns and cities coalesced into something that is recognizably Sweden is an open question. Therefore I would not take the existence of some place that coresponds to Svea Rike by Tacitus as proof of an early origin of 'Sweden', as other locations in Europe boast similar historical accounts of settlements which predate when an area became a 'nation'. However, I will be looking into it further, just to satisfy my curiousity.
I have never said that the "state" Sweden or Svea Rike, is a old as 100 AD but it´s no doubt that what Tacitus mentions is the tribe Svear.

There is no determined date from when Sweden/Svea Rike starts to exist but Svea Rike is much older than 873 when Harald the Fairhair unites Norway into a kingdom. When Harald Hairfair, The first king of a united Norway brags about his ancestry, it´s not the Norwegian part he mentions - it is his ancestry from the Swedish royal family - Ynglingaätten. And that one is very old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Yngling

Swedish kings from the house of Yngling is also mentioned in Beowulf.

By the way - at this time Sweden didn´t have a land army - there were no roads between the kingdoms, just impenetrable forrests and the only way to move large forces was by the sea. The Svea people went out of lake Mälaren into the East sea (baltic sea) and then further to the east. Sometimes they paid a visit to Denmark .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_the_Victorious
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I have never said that the "state" Sweden or Svea Rike, is a old as 100 AD but it´s no doubt that what Tacitus mentions is the tribe Svear.

There is no determined date from when Sweden/Svea Rike starts to exist but Svea Rike is much older than 873 when Harald the Fairhair unites Norway into a kingdom. When Harald Hairfair, The first king of a united Norway brags about his ancestry, it´s not the Norwegian part he mentions - it is his ancestry from the Swedish royal family - Ynglingaätten. And that one is very old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Yngling

Swedish kings from the house of Yngling is also mentioned in Beowulf.

By the way - at this time Sweden didn´t have a land army - there were no roads between the kingdoms, just impenetrable forrests and the only way to move large forces was by the sea. The Svea people went out of lake Mälaren into the East sea (baltic sea) and then further to the east. Sometimes they paid a visit to Denmark .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_the_Victorious
The other issue, which has not been addressed, is when Sweden started a permanent standing organization to provide and maintain ships to wage war (a navy, in other words).

Please note, a longship is not automatically a warship. The vessels themselves were of course used for warlike purposes (I-Viking, a norse term for raiding and the likely origin of our current descriptor Viking) but were also used for trade (which introduces another contender for the origin of Viking, from the latin vicus- meaning village; a reference norse travel to difference villages to trade. IIRC a good example would be that a small Buddha statue was excavated from a 5th century site in what is now Sweden, indicating that trade goods from as far away as present day India were reaching the north. The ships themselves were also used as transports for new settlements and exploring expeditions, settling Iceland, Greenland and Vinland (most likely what is now known as Newfoundland in Canada). AFAIK, the ships which could sometimes be gathered together in large numbers dependent on need or the influence of a charismatic leader were themselves owned individually or in small groups. As such, when whatever cause or event would cause a fleet of such vessels to gather was over, the vessels would then disperse to be used however the separate owners wished. This in effect would mean that there was no continuity or organization such as would be found in something like a navy.

-Cheers
 

Dalregementet

New Member
The other issue, which has not been addressed, is when Sweden started a permanent standing organization to provide and maintain ships to wage war (a navy, in other words).

Please note, a longship is not automatically a warship. The vessels themselves were of course used for warlike purposes (I-Viking, a norse term for raiding and the likely origin of our current descriptor Viking) but were also used for trade (which introduces another contender for the origin of Viking, from the latin vicus- meaning village; a reference norse travel to difference villages to trade. IIRC a good example would be that a small Buddha statue was excavated from a 5th century site in what is now Sweden, indicating that trade goods from as far away as present day India were reaching the north. The ships themselves were also used as transports for new settlements and exploring expeditions, settling Iceland, Greenland and Vinland (most likely what is now known as Newfoundland in Canada). AFAIK, the ships which could sometimes be gathered together in large numbers dependent on need or the influence of a charismatic leader were themselves owned individually or in small groups. As such, when whatever cause or event would cause a fleet of such vessels to gather was over, the vessels would then disperse to be used however the separate owners wished. This in effect would mean that there was no continuity or organization such as would be found in something like a navy.

-Cheers
I know all this, I´m an expert on the subject. There were different wessels, some for war and some for trade but, irrespectively of ship type, you could of course always seize the moment if an opportunity arose. Also, the Norvegian/Danish ships were larger than the Swedish since the Swedish operated in the baltic sea and were also used for travelling along the russian rivers. You had to drag the Swedish ships along the cataracts. As I said earlier, there were no roads in Sweden at that time and the only way to travel was by boat/ship - so you can assume that the fleet/navy is ancient.

When discussing this topic we are in the border between historical sources (written) and archeology. Also, most that is written in this subject is in Swedish, so you have a hard time finding the latest on Internet and in english. A relatively new book, "in the traces of the kings men", that takes in the latest from Swedish historical and archeological research shows that Sweden was very well organised in ancient times, i.e.viking age and earlier.

I suggest that you all read the theses "The Birka warrior" before we continue, this discussion. It is well worth reading, a golden nugget for those of you that are interested in ancient warfare.

Most of the early written sources are not from Sweden if you exclude the runic stones. The oldest Swedish written sources are from the 13th century but they do refer to older sources and then there are the archeological findings that can be dated.

Other sources are:
Germany, Vita Anskarii that tells you about Birka in Sweden about 840 AD - http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/Birka.shtml
Icelandic (Heimskringla) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimskringla
Russian (i.e. true russian from Kiev that is) - the Nestor Chonicles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Chronicle
English - Beowulf
Novgorod - the Novgorod chronicle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Chronicle

In the Vita Anskarii, you see that the "hundreds" organisation already exists 840 and that the society is very well organised. The town Birka, thought to be Swedens first, had a permanent garrison with professional warriors.

Here you can read about the "Birka warriors" - it´s a theses from Stockholm University. http://www.diva-portal.org/diva/getDocument?urn_nbn_se_su_diva-1272-2__fulltext.pdf

This is the conclusion:

As Birka should be regarded as the central point of a greater complex of
fortified structures incorporating water-traffic barricades and possibly other
structures laid out in strategic locations in the Lake Mälar region, it is likely
that the warriors at times circulated around other positions within the complexe.
Apart from their martial activities, the warriors’ daily life included
activities typical for men of high social standing. Within the Garrison area
there was a controlled production of keys, locks and bronzed weights, indicating
a control-function that possibly could even be extended to water
supply.
To regard the warriors of the Garrison as a stationary troop with the sole
function of guarding and defending Birka town, would be to diminish their
scope and field of activities. They should be seen in the same light as their
contemporary Northern counterparts elsewhere, as evident in the written
sources. This means long-term campaigning, strategic and tactical knowledge,
and an order of command and system of rank. They were well-trained, functionally equipped, skilled warriors and the strong foreign influences in
the material culture point to long-running foreign influences and experiences.
The weaponry and equipment show contacts with both western and
eastern military cultures, and the warriors seems to have adapted their fighting
technique to warfare on different fronts.
Summarising what this study has established about the Birka Garrison
warriors, it is possible to conclude that the archaeological material reveals a
standing troop of approximately 40 warriors. The Garrison was manned all
year round, but there are also signs of long-term campaigning abroad, and
knowledge of extensive contacts with warriors of other cultures. The Birka
warriors worked somewhere in the border-zone between honour and profession,
standing with one foot in the fervour and motivation of the warrior
and the other in the professionalism and standardisation of the soldier. The
communal character of weaponry implies a general supplier of equipment,
but the diversity of types indicates that this was not sufficient all the way.
The strong religious presence and the indications of ritual feasting imply a
warrior ideal manifesting in the group, providing motivation and mentally
preparing the warriors for battle. The archaic structure of the warrior’s hall
building and the emphasis on pagan values reflected in the depositions and
the manufacture of amulets, indicates a positioning against Christianity and
possibly against the political power which the new religion represented.
- - - - -
I think the situation then and today is not that different. There were a permanent standing army. The ones that were not on "active" duty could do other things like raiding in other countries. Today, you can work for Blackwater ;)
 
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Palnatoke

Banned Member
How old is old

The danish Navy celebrates it's official 500 year anniversary this coming year. Making it the 2nd oldest millitary organisation and oldest maritime millitary organisation in the world (the swiss guarde of the pope is the oldest millitary organisation).

How do they derrive at the 500 years?

As With anything which is truely old, the origin lies in the shades of history.
Clearly there has been organised navial warfare in Scandinavia as long as history recalls. The "old" fought wars primarely at sea and the first known warship is the "Nydam boat" (excavated in Nydam, Denmark) which is a 4-5th century (Germanic iron age) war-rowing-boat . The boat is a predecessor of the famous "viking longboat" and is builded using much of the same principles, but the longboat is a sailingship, which can be rowed.

Equating the kingdom with the state (which danes do today, though we should have in mind that "the kingdom" for centuries represented Denmark, Norway, southern sweden and north german states) and viewing navy/army as attributes of the state, we can say that the state has waged organised navial war since it's official birth, which is early 10th century according to the Jellinge stone.While we know the wars, we do not know how the army/navy was organised and to which extend we can at all talk of an "army/navy" organisation and not a run together of different minor war lords owning alligence (or simply paided) to a major war lord (the king).

During the 12-13th century, we know the organisation of the armed forces. The king had a personal limited standing force which in times of war could be boosted by a drafted army/navy. This drafted force was organised into geographical areas each responsible of offering one ship with a compliment.
This system seems to have been able to offer 100s of ships and 1000s of men. It is suspected that this system was in place during the millitary conquests of the 11th century and together with the technological superiority of the longboat, at the heart of the surprising millitary power of the "viking" kingdom.
This system is disbanded from the end of the 13th century (perhaps earlier).

During the 14th century navial power and indeed supremacy over the baltics shifts to the german city states "the Hansa", and the scandinavien kingdoms are in deep recession if not defacto dessolved.

In the case of Denmark;
Recontruction and a bid for power is made during early 15th century and the efforts centers on navial warfare.

Queen Margrethe 1387-1412, Ruler of Denmark, Sweden and Norway commands the construction of a fleet to defend the realm. This fleet was raised by ordering cities and nobility to add vessels, and as such not a real "state navy".
Her assesor Erik IV 1412-1439 is known to have added his royal ships to the navy. These ships are thought to have flown the red-white "Cross banner" of Denmark, the banner of the king.

In 1461 the base "Holmen" (in Copenhagen) is mentioned as a major base for the fleets ships.

King Hans 1482-1513 Constructs "Bremerholmen" (in Copenhagen) as a navial shipyard and the base of the fleet and provides the navy with a firm organisation. King Hans is known to have ordered the construction of several ships including a number of very large units (f.ex. Engelen, Maria both likely constructed at Sønderborg).
Christian II 1513-1523 makes the navy primary "royal" and not drafted from the "nobellity".

It's the construction of Bremerholmen as yard and base of the navy that's the focal point. Bremerholmen remained the base of the navy and increasingly the main construction site of the navy's ships until the fleet was moved to "Nyholmen" (also in Copenhagen across the harbour) in the early 18th century. which then became a massive arsenal of the navy.
The naval yard "Orlogsværftet" produced warships on Nyholmen until the 1980s and to this day is a base of the Navy.
 

USNlover

New Member
Well I thing that the pacific islanders shouldnt be counted because 1. they werent "nations" they were tribes and 2. we dont know when they got ships because we found the in like the 1770's. It also depends on what you call a navy-old (age of sail/vikings), semi modern (WWI/WWII) or modern (today) :unknown
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
I guess it's the continuity of the organisation that matters. Men has waged war by sea as long as history recalls, though few here would probably argue that f.ex. the Eqyptian or something Navy s the oldest in the world because "egyptians" conducted warfare on the sea in antiquity.
 
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