Official Chengdu J-20 Discussion Thread

[Haavarla]

Its is not that simple.
We all remember the last Su-27SKM deal, that got killed by China in favor of their own J-11s. Granted They wanted the Su-30MKK instead.

But the danger here is that China once again just pull off some Su-35S contract down the road and start implemementing some new tech on their own J-11B/J-15 fleet.

So a large Su-35S deal does not mean it water proof deal. I think Russia are afraid of this.

And another aspect with Su-35S export are also the cost.
The Su-35S should prove to be the most pricly Flanker ever exported too.
Perhaps even too costly for some Flanker friendly nations.

 

[Rasp814]

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This link does not mention the ws-10 engine at all. It just goes over the al-31fn purchase from last July. It also is incorrect in a few places. The j-11b and the j-15 prototypes are currently using ws-10 engines.

Here's a source claiming that China tried to acquire the fighter as a whole.

i think your wording is off. It seemed Russia tried to sell the figher to China back in 2010. China does not seem very interested.

I do not see why China would be interested in the SU-35 when it is gradually upgrading its 400+ flanker fleet. Sources have stated that the j-11Bs will be upgraded with AESA as well which makes me question China's interest in the Iribis (unless this was was before 2009 before the j-10b images began showing an esa radar)


The 117s engine is the only thing I can see China showing interest in. After so much money and time poured into the ws-10, only recently has China been able to fix its production issues. This really depends on the ws-15 and the timeline Chengdu has set for the j-20.

I tried to post some sources, but i need 10 posts to do so apparently.

 

[Comrade69]

I think the SU-35 for a lot of nations is too expensive to be honest

 

[Feanor]

Its is not that simple.
We all remember the last Su-27SKM deal, that got killed by China in favor of their own J-11s. Granted They wanted the Su-30MKK instead.

But the danger here is that China once again just pull off some Su-35S contract down the road and start implemementing some new tech on their own J-11B/J-15 fleet.

So a large Su-35S deal does not mean it water proof deal. I think Russia are afraid of this.

And another aspect with Su-35S export are also the cost.
The Su-35S should prove to be the most pricly Flanker ever exported too.
Perhaps even too costly for some Flanker friendly nations.

It certainly wouldn't be water proof, but it could justify the risk, given a large enough profit margin.

 

[Feanor]

This link does not mention the ws-10 engine at all. It just goes over the al-31fn purchase from last July. It also is incorrect in a few places. The j-11b and the j-15 prototypes are currently using ws-10 engines.

Again, still looking. It was a Russian defense magazine, I'm still trying to figure out where I saw it.

i think your wording is off. It seemed Russia tried to sell the figher to China back in 2010. China does not seem very interested.

I do not see why China would be interested in the SU-35 when it is gradually upgrading its 400+ flanker fleet. Sources have stated that the j-11Bs will be upgraded with AESA as well which makes me question China's interest in the Iribis (unless this was was before 2009 before the j-10b images began showing an esa radar)

Iirc the Irbis-E interest was ~2009-10, so it could be before they had their own AESA.

 

[Comrade69]

Umm since I do not see an official PLAAF thread, I will just ask here.

Does anyone know what radar the J-11B has and its specs?

 

[StobieWan]

You have a point there. Israel might not be the kind of customer we're looking for. But a customer with the funds to re-open production is more likely then Congress allowing exports in the first place.

Japan never got F22 in all the time it lobbied for it - they had the money and that's what they wanted..

And to be honest, keeping the production tooling is only a piece of the puzzle - the F22 relies on i960 processors which aren't in production any more - I may be talking out of my bottom but as far as I understand it, building more F22 needs a new processor followed by a software port. The USAF bought enough boards to fill out the remaining production with spares for running the fleet on but that key component is now effectively obsolete and unavailable.

F22 is a dead end in terms of systems architecture - the ones flying are very good at at what they do but putting it back into production is going to be very expensive.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Japan never got F22 in all the time it lobbied for it - they had the money and that's what they wanted..

And to be honest, keeping the production tooling is only a piece of the puzzle - the F22 relies on i960 processors which aren't in production any more - I may be talking out of my bottom but as far as I understand it, building more F22 needs a new processor followed by a software port. The USAF bought enough boards to fill out the remaining production with spares for running the fleet on but that key component is now effectively obsolete and unavailable.

F22 is a dead end in terms of systems architecture - the ones flying are very good at at what they do but putting it back into production is going to be very expensive.

The main impediment to export of the f-22 is the Obey amendment forbidding export due to the highly classified tech, and a desire that certain folks who "borrow" tech from others be denied the easy access to that. The f-35 was dubbed the 75 percent solution, and a certain sec def killed the f-22 in order to promote the F-35, which was said to be "good enough for government work". The F-35 was supposed to cost less than half what the f-22 would cost. That has not proven to be the case, while it is a perfectly adequate aircraft to perform the mission intended, JSF was never envisioned to be the Hi end air superiority fighter, and as expenses continue to rise , it is far beyond the envisioned cost, coming within a wisker of the F-22 cost. Poor decision making is always expensive, but better to pay it up front than lose the ability to defend ones other assetts. The longer the F-22 line remains down the greater the odds that it will never return, although I would point to the B-1 which Carter killed and Reagon returned to production. Thats why those who care about such things here in the US, are praying for regime change, knowing the stakes at hand and out of a grave concern for our allies around the world not just close to home. What is truly sad is that many of the F-35s secrets have been stolen, er ah "borrowed " by "friends who just want us to share? What we're seeing is reality setting in, financially and the potential that many of our "friends" are much farther along fielding potentially adversarial fifth gens. Thats why some of our allies are considering indigenous fifth gens, the realization that good enough, probably isnt. IMHO

 

[taliensin]

they released a flight video a couple of days ago but i cannot post links due to my post count so just search for 20 (J20): Combat Maneuver Tests at Low Altitude - 2012.02.26 (HD720p) on youtube and post it here please

 

[Sampanviking]

Here it is.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-zL42UKrnI"]æ­¼20 (J20): Combat Maneuver Tests at Low Altitude - 2012.02.26 (HD720p) - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Air Force Brat]

Here it is.

æ*¼20 (J20): Combat Maneuver Tests at Low Altitude - 2012.02.26 (HD720p) - YouTube

Thanks for posting guys, this is a little more energetic display than we have seen in the past, someone suggested it might be a factory display as there were buses there?

 

[jeffb]

Thanks for posting guys, this is a little more energetic display than we have seen in the past, someone suggested it might be a factory display as there were buses there?

I like the top comment on that video, "Why does China keep pretending its someone secretly hiding in the bushes filming this???"

Say what you want about the aircraft, the Chinese propaganda effort has been fantastic.

 

[Air Force Brat]

I like the top comment on that video, "Why does China keep pretending its someone secretly hiding in the bushes filming this???"

Say what you want about the aircraft, the Chinese propaganda effort has been fantastic.

Absolutely brother, and the guys are in the bushes, but as you said, they're pretending, I think they are doing a fabulous job of selling the J-20. The airplane seems to fly well, and in one photo sequence on a sister forum, appears to perform an immellman. The flight control system certainly seems to be up to snuff, and while some have speculated that there are more than one, we only seem to see 2001, so who knows. The flying this week seems to be a factory display and the guys in the bushes are J-20 fanboys, and I'm afraid it is growing on me. In reality, we know more about this bird, than we do the F-35. IMHO Jeff you are on the money, but they are really selling it to the guys in the bushes, the average Chinese citizen and thats what is truly new, it kind of cool to hear those chinese kids ooohhin and aaahhhhing over their new airplane, they are proud and justifiably so.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Time to move on folks...

just a small reminder, hubris can do more damage than tactical incompetency.

chinas political will and intent exists in spades, and they've travelled further in development, socially and technologically than any other country in modern times.

don't underestimate them just because they have legions of happy photoshoppers etc....

 

[jeffb]

In reality, we know more about this bird, than we do the F-35.

Do we really? I think its the other way around, theres endless reports and press coverage of the F35, what solid information do we have with regards to the J20? Virtually nothing.

Other than some blurry pictures and some youtube videos, all obviously state sponsored, we know very little about the J20 or the Chinese aviation industry as a whole. We don't even know if they're able to produce engines of high enough quality to power these designs.

The Chinese government has a long history of polishing over the truth to look successful, being seen to have something is more important than it actually working, take their high speed rail network for instance...

edit: welp that'll teach me to walk away from the computer for a couple of hours with a reply open

 

[Haavarla]

You have a point there indeed .
There are some uncomfirmed reports of China requesting Su-35S jets, or should i say Su-35S High-tech..

We all read about the designated WS-10B/H and WS-15 engines.
As far as Chinas current jetfighter Engine development goes, we do not have a clue.

But if these reports are true, then the Russian 117S engines should be the cherry on the cake for PLAAF current jet engines.

 

[Sampanviking]

You have a point there indeed .
There are some uncomfirmed reports of China requesting Su-35S jets, or should i say Su-35S High-tech..

We all read about the designated WS-10B/H and WS-15 engines.
As far as Chinas current jetfighter Engine development goes, we do not have a clue.

But if these reports are true, then the Russian 117S engines should be the cherry on the cake for PLAAF current jet engines.

Unfortunately, unconfirmed rumours are as common as photoshops in China and so I would put remarkably little faith in them.
What is true is that Chinese Military Imports have shrunk dramatically over the last decade and now seems to revolve around key components rather than wholes systems.

My (limited) understanding about the development of jet engines, would make high end engines a good candidate for needing external supply due to what I understand is a near immutable time requirement to bring them through the development process.

On another point entirely I have read a number of comments about Canards and the effects of using them on LO. Again please excuse my lack of expertise in this area, but my understanding is that during Stealth Super Cruise that these would not be in use and that they would only come into play during combat, when Stealth will no longer be the critical issue. The quote I keep hearing in relation to this is attributed to some US General or Senior Politician saying that "Missiles manoeuvre planes don't need to" or something along those lines.

It does seem that once the Stealthy approach is concluded and combat commences, that; most other things being equal, the plane with the most manoeuvrability surely gains a significant advanatage.

I would also note, that when the US designed the F22 and F35, these were the only shows in town and probably had nothing to worry about that they could not see and therefore evade or avoid. The Chinese by contrast have been able to design in the knowledge that there will be enemy stealth aircraft and know exactly what they are.

 

[Haavarla]

For your information. China ordered last year over 100 AL-31FN engines from Russia.
So while China is having problems with producing enough High-End jet engines.
Why cant China produce these engines for their J-10 fleet??

The AL-31FN Engine is hardly any top high-end product, but rather an export product not even used by Russia.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Do we really? I think its the other way around, theres endless reports and press coverage of the F35, what solid information do we have with regards to the J20? Virtually nothing.

Other than some blurry pictures and some youtube videos, all obviously state sponsored, we know very little about the J20 or the Chinese aviation industry as a whole. We don't even know if they're able to produce engines of high enough quality to power these designs.

The Chinese government has a long history of polishing over the truth to look successful, being seen to have something is more important than it actually working, take their high speed rail network for instance...

edit: welp that'll teach me to walk away from the computer for a couple of hours with a reply open

I won't deny any of this, but I believe that they have a real intention to field a very capable fifth gen in the J-20, the engines at least seem adequate, and as I noted while the lull after the Chinese New Year, they may have changed out powerplants etc, one of the main issues is longevity, but they have maintained a rather vigorous flying schedule, and the rather exuberant turning and burning at low altitude seems to show some confidence in their current power plant. IMHO

 

[Sampanviking]

For your information. China ordered last year over 100 AL-31FN engines from Russia.
So while China is having problems with producing enough High-End jet engines.
Why cant China produce these engines for their J-10 fleet??

The AL-31FN Engine is hardly any top high-end product, but rather an export product not even used by Russia.

Good question, the best answer I have heard is why bother to re-invent the wheel? More specifically why bother to go through the same slow and expensive development process for a less than cutting edge engine when you can buy proven systems off the shelf?

I agree with AFB that it makes better sense to use the resources to develop a new high end system that will give you a range of variants, once finished, to meet a most needs.

I also have heard a lot of analysis about what is clearly two sets of different engines being tested on the J20.