NZDF/ USS Wasp exercise
- Thread starter Big-E
- Start date
HEY !!! Now you are disrespectful to the Auzzies with your comments on their subs. Be very careful with what you say Mr Big E. I personally think your original crazy idea about a commander on the USS Wasp should pitch itself against the NZDF is in itself a self destructive, egotistical and unproductive discussion. Not to mention hypercritical. I think you know full well that the Wasp could do what you knew it could do , but you just want to let everyone know.
It seems Mr Big E that you have run out of ideas on military matters to discuss of a serious and meaningful nature and you should take up a new thread. No offense intended.
It seems Mr Big E that you have run out of ideas on military matters to discuss of a serious and meaningful nature and you should take up a new thread. No offense intended.
Big-E said:
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #23
Disrespectful comments? It's a compliment due to all the trouble a diesel is giving the CBG in exercises (testament to training).Markus40 said:
I am dismayed that everyone thinks an MEU could just run over the combined arms of the NZDF. I was giving a scenerio with specifics that would favor the weakness of NZ land forces in SI. I wanted to play it out until we saw how many forces from NI bases would be needed to stop it, but apperantly you don't seem to think they can. I guess it's time to put in my two cents. If they are able to get a 3rd of the 1st over with some artillery I think the MEU can be stopped. They will be outnumbered by a third and have to face defenders on home turf. NZ forces most of which will be wiped out can come out victorious b/c 6 CAS platforms and 2 artillery batteries isn't going to cut it when the NZLAVs flank their position. Considering the AAVs will be the main component of marine forces the NZLAVs will tear them up. The only thing to worry about are the M1A1s, hopefully Javelins can stop them. Biggest thing is size, 1 MEU can't cover and hold this much territory, it's just not enough. The Harriers and helos could be shot down with Mistrals if they get to close to land. Given defense of a nation with Western training doctrine and the lack of heavy air assets I think the MEU would be fought to a standstill...
How's that for a lack of respect. No offense taken.
I don't disagree, the main issues I foresee for the NZDF are logistics.Big-E said:Disrespectful comments? It's a compliment due to all the trouble a diesel is giving the CBG in exercises (testament to training).
I guess it's time to put in my two cents. If they are able to get a 3rd of the 1st over with some artillery I think the MEU can be stopped. They will be outnumbered by a third and have to face defenders on home turf. NZ forces most of which will be wiped out can come out victorious b/c 6 CAS platforms and 2 artillery batteries isn't going to cut it when the NZLAVs flank their position. Considering the AAVs will be the main component of marine forces the NZLAVs will tear them up. The only thing to worry about are the M1A1s, hopefully Javelins can stop them. Biggest thing is size, 1 MEU can't cover and hold this much territory, it's just not enough. The Harriers and helos could be shot down with Mistrals if they get to close to land. Given defense of a nation with Western training doctrine and the lack of heavy air assets I think the MEU would be fought to a standstill...
How's that for a lack of respect. No offense taken.
The LAV will be able to manoeuvre well and the 25mm cannon will be able to take on everything except the M1, but the M1 will be able to engage at a range that will be marginal to a Jav (2000-2500m). The NZDF only has 24 Jav, so they cannot be everywhere at once.
The Harrriers will also be a real problem, esp. if they interdict the supply routes.
Overall:
Initial advantage to the Wasp, long term advantage to the NZDF.
The NZDF is not geared to operate to this threat in the short term but will get there in the end.
stray_kiwi
New Member
There are still some A4's and M339A's sitting in storage somewhere in NZ, there is an airworthy Hawker Hunter based in Ardmore (and even a MiG 21 but I don't know what the current state of its airworthiness is). As I am not in the airforce I do not know if there are means to arm them but at the least they could provide some nuisance value.
Does anyone know how many missiles NZ purchased with the Javelin.Whiskyjack said:
Agreed, with the key being the Cook Strait. Given the vital importance of this sea area, does NZ need corvettes to ensure security of this water way in time of crisis. Could a viable alternative be LCS or the Danish SF3500.
Only if the reinforcements are unable to arrive. The ability of the US to sustain an MEU through air drops etc is significant, especially given the limited war reserves maintained by NZ.
Which raises the questions if we can not deal with what is internationally is a low level assault then what do we need to deal effectively with this type of threat. I would suggest a small air combat force and additional frigates / corvettes.
Last edited:
Everyone seems to be thinking in relatively conventional responses, need to exploit the Wasp's weaknesses not try and fight its strengths, how about some Navy divers planting some demolition charges against the hull, getting them in close enough may be a problem (what sort of stand off range would Wasp launch its offensive actions from ?)
No I don't think we do for the following reasons:Lucasnz said:
- Realistically the scenario is predicated on an ally going mad. There is no such threat to NZ as our allies cannot allow it to happen in the interests of their own security.
- Why would an armed force risk significant loss and commit a major force to an invasion/raid in force when interdiction of the seas lanes is much cheaper and more effective?
- The only armed force that can invade is the US and it is just not going to happen
- The armed forces that could conduct a raid in force with a small amount of air cover are also minimal and all allies.
Why would the NZDF structure its forces to a scenario that isn’t going to happen?
Contentious I know but the arming of the P3s would mitigate the possibility (at about 0.00001% IMO) well covering other more realistic scenarios.
I absolutely agree that in a foregin power were to have a go at NZ's sea lanes would be the best means of threating NZ, and that equipping and arming the P3's would be a significant deterent.Whiskyjack said:
I quess what I'm getting at is that NZ with a population of 4million should be able to meet all conventional low level threats, without the assistance of Australia. After all the ability to defend ones nation is part of what it means to be a Sovereign and independent state.
While the WASP will probably never happen can we ever really rule out a raiding force (for whatever insane reason). All it takes is an LPD, tanker and a escort. I would never support a force structure based on a single type of threat. I would combine a number of different Scenarios to identify the common elements needed to counter them
Look, what we are discussing is what a hollywood dream maker would love to run for block buster. If you want to take your imagination to this level, and lead us all along with it, then we are all mugs to start with.
First i was not demeaning to the NZDF in its capability in taking on the USS Wasp. I was telling you the truth and giving it to you up front. The NZDF does NOT have the capability to sustain an assault on the SI or NI for that matter from an LHD. You should realise this. With a preemptive strike the AV-8Bs taking out critical base objectives IE Devonport, and Ohakea, Waiouru etc this will leave our forces out of the action, along with our new equipment.
Over the long term sustainability, the USS Wasp would need to be replenished with weopons and supplies, so as to co ordinate and sustain an occupation. However it would only need 1 LHD to do it.
First i was not demeaning to the NZDF in its capability in taking on the USS Wasp. I was telling you the truth and giving it to you up front. The NZDF does NOT have the capability to sustain an assault on the SI or NI for that matter from an LHD. You should realise this. With a preemptive strike the AV-8Bs taking out critical base objectives IE Devonport, and Ohakea, Waiouru etc this will leave our forces out of the action, along with our new equipment.
Over the long term sustainability, the USS Wasp would need to be replenished with weopons and supplies, so as to co ordinate and sustain an occupation. However it would only need 1 LHD to do it.
Big-E said:Disrespectful comments? It's a compliment due to all the trouble a diesel is giving the CBG in exercises (testament to training).
I guess it's time to put in my two cents. If they are able to get a 3rd of the 1st over with some artillery I think the MEU can be stopped. They will be outnumbered by a third and have to face defenders on home turf. NZ forces most of which will be wiped out can come out victorious b/c 6 CAS platforms and 2 artillery batteries isn't going to cut it when the NZLAVs flank their position. Considering the AAVs will be the main component of marine forces the NZLAVs will tear them up. The only thing to worry about are the M1A1s, hopefully Javelins can stop them. Biggest thing is size, 1 MEU can't cover and hold this much territory, it's just not enough. The Harriers and helos could be shot down with Mistrals if they get to close to land. Given defense of a nation with Western training doctrine and the lack of heavy air assets I think the MEU would be fought to a standstill...
How's that for a lack of respect. No offense taken.