NZDF - Now and the Future.

[Whiskyjack]

It's interesting that you mention public ignorance in NZ of defence matters - IIRC someone also mentioned it earlier in this thread.

To me, it raises the question: how do you actually go about educating an ignorant public (ie taxpayers) in regards to all things military?

My view is that military/ history at high school and modern current events are needed to be taught.

E.g. what % of NZ wealth is carried on SLOCs? depend on stable regions in Asia, Mid East etc?

It is the not happening here, so it does not effect us mentality. And to be honest this exists in Govt, Academia and the NZDF to a certain extent.

It is a $ more than it is about security.

Even a lot of military enthusiasts are ignorant of how a military works and operates. More interested in the things with guns and go bang, than ESM, SIGINT, ECM, ISTAR, general INTEL, not to mention logistics (and the other 1001 things), which make a modern military effective and useful.

 

[Whiskyjack]

So, the onus is largely on the 3 services to promote themselves?

I imagine this would be the prime example where a unified NZDF 'brand' would be of great value.

Would be a fantastic PR challenge.

I am not sure I agree with that. While I agree the NZDF needs to promote itself, doesn't that lead back to 'looking at the Toys'? That is good for recruitment, but does it buy public understanding? The Skyhawks flew lots of public displays, the ANZACs have had lots of open days all around the country, did not stop the air strike being scrapped or the number of frigates being cut. The public needs to support the NZDF, it needs to be a base value, ANZAC needs to be about history, but also how that history fits into NZs current security. As posted above it starts at school.

 

[mug]

Surely something that 'starts at school' is ultimately politician-initiated though?

Somehow I can't see your average teacher unilaterally instigating defence related lessons at school. That's all about war, and death, and bad non-PC things. Excuse the sarcasm, I just can't see it happening.

It's also interesting that, from any one set of facts, different conclusions can be drawn eg fact: Britain largely unprepared for war at start of WWII. Conclusion: i) should have had better prepared military or ii) should have tried harder politically to prevent war? My point from this is that, despite the facts, different political ideologies dictate different courses of action.

 

[KH-12]

Speaking of things that go bang , looks like we have just brought the worlds most expensive helicopters , hot off the press :

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0607/S00548.htm

Notice the initial inservice date not until 2010 and no mention of the LUH decision.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Surely something that 'starts at school' is ultimately politician-initiated though?

Somehow I can't see your average teacher unilaterally instigating defence related lessons at school. That's all about war, and death, and bad non-PC things. Excuse the sarcasm, I just can't see it happening.

It's also interesting that, from any one set of facts, different conclusions can be drawn eg fact: Britain largely unprepared for war at start of WWII. Conclusion: i) should have had better prepared military or ii) should have tried harder politically to prevent war? My point from this is that, despite the facts, different political ideologies dictate different courses of action.

I don't disagree, I look at it this way, support for the NZDF is growing, simply because the NZDF is more operationally involved overseas, people see it making a difference.

From 1972 when NZ troops were pulled out of a very unpopular war to 1995-1996 (?) in Bosnia, the NZDF really had no operational deployments. Therefore the last memories of the NZDF were mixed in peoples minds with the protest movement against involvement in war etc.

I think the current govt is far more defence minded than it was 7 years ago because it has been exposed to the world and the different levels that effect NZ.

People insure things against unfortunate events, they choose there level of insurance against the risk they see against what they want protected. Defence is not much different at the basic level IMO.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Speaking of things that go bang , looks like we have just brought the worlds most expensive helicopters , hot off the press :

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0607/S00548.htm

Notice the initial inservice date not until 2010 and no mention of the LUH decision.

Interesting they will come from France, and not here until 2010, with full operational ability from 2013!

 

[mug]

Fantastic news.

The total cost of the NH-90s is $771 million.

Surely this includes the LUH or has the price escalated that much?

From 1972 when NZ troops were pulled out of a very unpopular war to 1995-1996 (?) in Bosnia, the NZDF really had no operational deployments. Therefore the last memories of the NZDF were mixed in peoples minds with the protest movement against involvement in war etc.

Good point. Hopefully then, things are changing for the better.

 

[KH-12]

That still works out at $58M per aircraft excluding support etc , that is alot of money for a helicopter no matter how capable it might be.

I wonder what the operating costs per hour look like

 

[Whiskyjack]

Fantastic news.

Surely this includes the LUH or has the price escalated that much?

quote]

It may, but I would think that there is political capital and announcing 14 helos for $771m rather than 8?

40% is logistics so that really gets included in the operational life.

 

[Whiskyjack]

That still works out at $58M per aircraft excluding support etc , that is alot of money for a helicopter no matter how capable it might be.

I wonder what the operating costs per hour look like

Yeah but that is only 28m Euro!

 

[KH-12]

Yeah but that is only 28m Euro!

Maybe we are going to pay on a drip feed basis over the next 7 years will not be quite so painful on that basis, better buy some more bandaids for the Iroquios in the meantime

I would hope that they are fully spec'd for that price, would be interesting to know how similar they will be in config to the Australian version.

On the basis that they wil be quite delayed arriving maybe we will see a more capable LUH selected.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Maybe we are going to pay on a drip feed basis over the next 7 years will not be quite so painful on that basis, better buy some more bandaids for the Iroquios in the meantime

I would hope that they are fully spec'd for that price, would be interesting to know how similar they will be in config to the Australian version.

On the basis that they wil be quite delayed arriving maybe we will see a more capable LUH selected.

I would hape that the systems are the same as the Aussie version, having said that NZ has bought a lot of spares!:

 

[KH-12]

I would hape that the systems are the same as the Aussie version, having said that NZ has bought a lot of spares!:

It's actually a cunning plan , the RNZAF are going to build 4 additional airframes from the spare parts and save that expensive Euro labour cost

 

[Whiskyjack]

It's actually a cunning plan , the RNZAF are going to build 4 additional airframes from the spare parts and save that expensive Euro labour cost

I like your thinking!!!

Seriously though. The need to replace the UH-1 was recognised almost a decade ago now 1997-1998(?). So the gap between then and full operational capability will be 15-17 years!

And this is a capability that should have support from all the main political parties.

 

[KH-12]

I like your thinking!!!

Seriously though. The need to replace the UH-1 was recognised almost a decade ago now 1997-1998(?). So the gap between then and full operational capability will be 15-17 years!

And this is a capability that should have support from all the main political parties.

Indeed , the process has been pretty slow although it did'nt really get any impetious until after the LTDP was completed. It looks like they paid full retail for the aircraft, although they did annouce that they were going to purchase the aircraft prior to agreeing the price not a particularly smart way to get the best deal from your supplier , could we have achieved the same capability with a few more slightly smaller (and cheaper) aircraft, I suspect yes apart from say the sling load capacity.

This is an interesting statement :

"For deployments and disaster relief in the Pacific, with long range tanks the NH-90s can self-deploy"

Even with long range tanks this sounds optimistic, the NH90 website gives a ferry range of 1220km, where does that get you ?

OK it gets you from Kaitaia to Norfolk Is (837km) but I think it is a stretch from there to anywhere in the South East Pacific (eg Fiji)

 

[mug]

From an older NZ Herald article:

Mr Goff yesterday said the original estimates for the long-term development plan in 2002 were "just that, estimates".

"The figure used in the long-term development plan of up to $560 million was a 'guesstimate' in 2002 for an aircraft not yet off the production line."

He said New Zealand expected to pay market price for the aircraft.

That market price would be higher than originally thought, in part because there were now concrete figures for an aircraft that is in production.

"We are, of course, also affected by the valuation of the New Zealand dollar. That won't come as a surprise to anyone. Anything that New Zealand imports at a lower dollar value is going to cost more and that will be the case with this."

Mr Goff indicated the total cost would be more than the reported $750 million once the cost of spare parts, logistics and a training package were taken into account.

No surprises then I guess.

 

[Sea Toby]

Where are the light utility helicopters? The Sioux training helicopters need to be replaced too. We have been told that both orders would be forthcoming, not one. If the government is going to spread the costs out over a few years, surely the government could have made a decision on the light utillity helicopter too. Most of us expected the EC-135s to be ordered along with the NH90s.

I'm seriously wondering whether New Zealand should have purchased the Augusta 139s instead. I do not believe they would have such a high sticker price. It may not be as large or have as much range, it would still be a better helicopter than a Huey.

The AB139 is available in both civil and military configurations and is capable of carrying up to 15 passengers or 2,500kg (5,500lb) useful load. Civil applications include passenger transport, law enforcement, utility and offshore oil support. Other roles include search and rescue, cargo lift and fire fighting.

Length overall (Rotors turning) 54.63ft (16.65m)
Height overall (Rotors turning) 16.24ft (4.95m)
Rotor diameter 45.28ft (13.80m)
Internal cabin size (L x W x H) 8.86ft x 6.56ft x 4.66ft (2.7m x 2.0m x 1.42m)
Sliding and plug-in cabin door (L x H) 5.51ft x 4.43 ft (1.68m x 1.35m)
Weights
Max. take-off 14,112lb (6,400kg)
Useful load (external) 6,124lb (2,778kg)
Capacity
Required Crew 1 to 2
Seating up to 15
Stretchers up to 6 (with 4 attendants)
Baggage compartment 120ft³ (3.4m³)

 

[KH-12]

Where are the light utility helicopters? The Sioux training helicopters need to be replaced too. We have been told that both orders would be forthcoming, not one. If the government is going to spread the costs out over a few years, surely the government could have made a decision on the light utillity helicopter too. Most of us expected the EC-135s to be ordered along with the NH90s.

I'm seriously wondering whether New Zealand should have purchased the Augusta 139s instead. I do not believe they would have such a high sticker price.

Agree the AW149 http://www.agustawestland.com/communication_det.asp?id_news=254&yy=2006 , looks quite promising might have achieved the same in service time if we had signed as the launch customer (and a cheaper price tag), being an evolution of the AW139 the project risk should be minimal, the AW139 is certainly alot cheaper (base price about $NZ13M) so the AW149 should be in the vicinity say $NZ20M or about 1/3 of the NH90 cost.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200607311618/3e86598b

$120 million should get you about 12 EC135 including spares etc on the same basis as the NH90.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

Interesting they will come from France, and not here until 2010, with full operational ability from 2013!

Remember electoral cycles If anything goes wrong blame the other party or if you are in power you can hush it up.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

From an older NZ Herald article:



No surprises then I guess.

Maybe, but there is one problem, we know what the budget was, we know what the cost increase was, Goff may say that the 500 mil figure was a guesstimate but that still leaves a 271 shortfall unless they make up the differeance from somewhere.
So, whats gong to get cut? My bet is on the artillery, if anything goes, hasnt been used in action since Vietnam....