NZDF General discussion thread

kiwi in exile

Active Member
I agree with you on this, but introducing submarines would take just as long or longer and be more expensive, both would be brilliant;)
An AFC could be cobbled together some what quicker and cheaper than subs by say, buying second hand aircraft (RAAF F18A's?) borrowing a small number of pilots from the RAAF and or RCAF (6 to 8)arranging for our pilots to be strike trained by a combination of RAAF, RCAF, RAF, or a commensal trainer such as Draken International, then feed these pilots into the sqn based around the borrowed pilots, with the eventual aim of replacing them.
If we were moving toward establishing an acf i wouldn't want to start with 2nd hand end of life 4th/4.5 gen fighters that our allies are wanting to retire. If we were going to do it I would want us to have a bit more ambition (I think the problem with our pollies is lack of ambition).

I used to think new build grippens would be the way to go. Meteor missiles. ; )
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry I meant anti surface warefare.p8 have been designed to carry standoff ASMs and perform an anti surface warfare mission. To say ours can't because there are only four and they cost lots is silly.


There are sub launched iris-t variants. Think they are more aimed at helicopters.
Yes and the P8 is at 30,00ft
You are picking holes without addressing the hole issue of what an AFC can achieve. on the P8 anti shipping role the limited numbers mean a limited attacks which is very likely to be defeated by an enemies anti missile defence. In the 1990's the Skyhawks were very successful in exercises by the use of massed attacks the overwelled the targets defences. This was achieved by using a P3 out of missile range directing 6 to 8 Skyhawks into the target from all around the compass to simultaneously fire 2 missiles each that arrive at the target at the same time, it is reputed that the successfully dealt to a USN Nuke carrier by this means. This is what the role of the P 8 would be, to control the battle field and were it is of most value.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If we were moving toward establishing an acf i wouldn't want to start with 2nd hand end of life 4th/4.5 gen fighters that our allies are wanting to retire. If we were going to do it I would want us to have a bit more ambition (I think the problem with our pollies is lack of ambition).

I used to think new build grippens would be the way to go. Meteor missiles. ; )
You miss the point, with the new build you are starting from scratch and are years away for achieving any thing. you have no trained pilots, no structure and would have learnt nothing about how to operate. with what I have suggested you could be started in a matter of months and by the time you have the sqn functioning as a cohesive combat unit then you can feed in the new built aircraft having learnt how to operate a strike sqn.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Yes and the P8 is at 30,00ft
You are picking holes without addressing the hole issue of what an AFC can achieve. on the P8 anti shipping role the limited numbers mean a limited attacks which is very likely to be defeated by an enemies anti missile defence. In the 1990's the Skyhawks were very successful in exercises by the use of massed attacks the overwelled the targets defences. This was achieved by using a P3 out of missile range directing 6 to 8 Skyhawks into the target from all around the compass to simultaneously fire 2 missiles each that arrive at the target at the same time, it is reputed that the successfully dealt to a USN Nuke carrier by this means. This is what the role of the P 8 would be, to control the battle field and were it is of most value.
I agree that an acf can do a lot that a p8 can't. And can do it in a different, often better way. And a p8 working with fast gets or loyal wingman type platforms would be great.

However if LRASM works as advertised at a good standoff range out of range of a ships missiles a LRASM armed p8 can perform this mission with the aid of third party targetting info (or our own satellites). Carriers with aircraft is another story. But that's why we need subs as deterent ; )
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
You miss the point, with the new build you are starting from scratch and are years away for achieving any thing. you have no trained pilots, no structure and would have learnt nothing about how to operate. with what I have suggested you could be started in a matter of months and by the time you have the sqn functioning as a cohesive combat unit then you can feed in the new built aircraft having learnt how to operate a strike sqn.
This makes a lot of sense. But I imagine if we buy old f18s they will be expected to operate for years like our Orion's, Hercules, old Skyhawks.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
This makes a lot of sense. But I imagine if we buy old f18s they will be expected to operate for years like our Orion's, Hercules, old Skyhawks.
I think there will be Superhorets available should NZ be serious about getting back in the fast jet business, Hornets are past their best before date…accept in junior’s RCAF!
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
An ACF will never be restored here, no public appetite and no political appetite for it.
The future of the NZDF will be more centred on the ability to respond to those 3x major natural disasters, Alpine Fault, Hikurangi Subduction and Mt Taranaki, all 3 will be hugely defistating on the Country in terms of lose of life, destruction, effects on economy and cost to rebuild and ability to rebuild from within. I can tell you all 3x are are rated as catastrophic events which would require outside assistance on a scale never seen in NZ’s history and that support from heavy transport aircraft would be in relative terms fast but the main support would need to come by ship which is not so fast.
So we would need to be able to respond first and foremost in those critical first 24/48 hours ourselves and we need to have a Defence Force built to respond to such events.
What we are likely to see procurred over the coming years are as follows,
- more helicopters for the airforce, which will likely be extra NH90 and a replacement of the A109 to a more medium lift helicopter such as AW139 and numbers totaling a mixed fleet of 20, thats 7 extra aircraft.

- C-27J Spartan or C-295 to replace the Kingairs, dont be too surprised these will be ex RAAF Spartan, the NZDF and current Govt were very impressed with what the Spartans were able to do in Cyclone Gabriel efforts this year and it highlighted a real gap in our capabilities.

- MQ-9B Sea Guardian x4, again current Govt very impressed with what this platform offers and how it can assist the manned P-8’s, not be surprised to see these in NZ skies soon.

- 3x Harry deWolfe class OPV’s, behind the scenes a lot of interest in these ships and they are much larger than our current OPV’s and size matters moving forwards as does the ability to patrol the Southern Ocean and these will do that well.

- A new multi role ship, again size will be the important factor and don’t be surprised what the UK and Australia are looking at which is the BMT ELLIDA been top of the list, well dock, 50 bed hospital, multi aviation spots, ability to conduct underway replenishment and slightly larger than HMNZS Aoteroa and one to supplement Canterbury and then an extra to replace Canterbury.

As for frigate replacement, don't expect a like for like replacement, if you start thinking 3x Heritage class cutters based off what the US Coastguard are currently getting you will be on track with either an NH90 naval variant helicopter or a medium helicopter based off a commercial model likely front runners to replace Seasprite, I am talking bargain deal to purchase ex European cancelled order of the NH90.



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Ok this sounds like your clued into a source.

Who and why would we accept something like the heritage class? Who needs the guillotine for pushing that?

126 crew, as small less armed and less aware than what we currently field when we could get type 31 or a derivative with a partner that actually has entered into a free trade deal with us.

We go that route ill be spewing.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
There are indications of greater engagement between Australia and NZ with Australia apparently playing a key role in the NZDF capability growth. To be honest this seems more like a blind leading the blind exercise given Australia’s own record hasn’t exactly been stellar in recent years.

I think the most obvious area of cooperation will be the eventual replacement of the Anzac class. Given that Australia is looking at expanding its own navy with a range of smaller ships it seems obvious that it would be beneficial to both sides if they select the same ships and weapons.

I am not sure if Australia has the spare shipbuilding capacity to build ships for NZ but that is another issue.

Pretty sure Australia would also be pressuring NZ to change its policy on nuclear vessels visiting its ports.

Also can’t help but feel that something like the Ghost Bat could be a useful addition to the NZ arsenal.

One thing for certain is that as Chinese influence in this region increases there will need to be a close military relationship between not just Australia and NZ but also just about every other nation in this region as well.

.
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I think there will be Superhorets available should NZ be serious about getting back in the fast jet business, Hornets are past their best before date…accept in junior’s RCAF!
Every current classic Hornet user has now announced replacements, most with F-35s, so unlike the F-16 there are no current upgrade projects in place, they will be gone within 10 years while the F-16 will serve well into the 2040s if not longer.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Every current classic Hornet user has now announced replacements, most with F-35s, so unlike the F-16 there are no current upgrade projects in place, they will be gone within 10 years while the F-16 will serve well into the 2040s if not longer.
Production of the Super Hornet will end soon. Secondhand Super Hornets won’t be easy to get. The ones used by the USN would probably be stuffed and Australia looks like it will hang onto there’s until the 2030s. I have my doubts that NZ will ever get back into the fast jet business. UCAVs on the other hand. Well worth considering.
 

Hawkeye69

Member
I like both platforms, especially the 27. It has the same engines as the superherc. Apparently c27s are expensive to operate. Both platforms have been discussed at length as EMAC contenders on the rnzaf thread.
I believe some senior NZDF staff and some politician’s went for demo flight in an RAAF Spartan late last year so watch this space.
 

Hawkeye69

Member
Ok this sounds like your clued into a source.

Who and why would we accept something like the heritage class? Who needs the guillotine for pushing that?

126 crew, as small less armed and less aware than what we currently field when we could get type 31 or a derivative with a partner that actually has entered into a free trade deal with us.

We go that route ill be spewing.
The current Govt have made it clear that any new defence purchases will not be high tech but rather proven affordable off the self equipment and the Navy looks more likely to be geared towards responding to the effects of climate change and natural disasters and less so searching for a possible submarine, the ANZAC frigates are most likely to go the same way of the Skyhawks and become part of history.

What replaces the frigates will have off the self limited weapons system aligned more to basic self defence for the role of border protection and fisheries patrol.

Your most likely future for Defence upgrades is the current Govt, National and Acts only focus is on getting the cost of living crisis sorted and re-elected in 3 years time.

As for fast jets your far more likely to see a pink pig flying in the sky, the only jet the RNZAF will soon operate will be the P-8.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The current Govt have made it clear that any new defence purchases will not be high tech but rather proven affordable off the self equipment and the Navy looks more likely to be geared towards responding to the effects of climate change and natural disasters and less so searching for a possible submarine, the ANZAC frigates are most likely to go the same way of the Skyhawks and become part of history.

What replaces the frigates will have off the self limited weapons system aligned more to basic self defence for the role of border protection and fisheries patrol.

Your most likely future for Defence upgrades is the current Govt, National and Acts only focus is on getting the cost of living crisis sorted and re-elected in 3 years time.

As for fast jets your far more likely to see a pink pig flying in the sky, the only jet the RNZAF will soon operate will be the P-8.
What you are basically suggesting will replace the RNZN's ANZAC-class frigates are some type of OPV. Whilst certainly possible, I do not consider such a drastic cut back in capability a certainty, as such a move would in essence transform the RNZN into what would be more like a Coast Guard type agency. There are certainly those within NZ who would likely desire such a change, but then there are definitely idealists advocating positions (passive non-compliance, anyone?) which are neither particularly realistic or rational.

Not only would such a move cede control of NZ's SLOC to anyone else, it would also consign NZ to irrelevance as an international partner-nation for maritime issues, threats or disputes. It would also exclude NZ from having any real voice or say international affairs, particularly those involving maritime issues and/or along the SLOC that NZ is reliant upon.

Such thinking again strikes me as more a sort of idealistic fantasy that NZ could, would and should become more a Non-Aligned nation, despite being so reliant on global trade and particularly with major trading partners like Australia and the US.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Defend against what? If NZ is outside the combat radius of land based combat aircraft then we don't need to intercept them. Aircraft carrier launched combat aircraft would likely not get within strike range without some form of response by our allies, who would likely be targeted first. Bombers based in the Solomon's would be right on Australia's doorstep. If I wanted to attack NZ and I had the means I would try naval blockade (you don't neccesarily have to be near NZ to achieve this if part of a wider conflict), cyber, or ballistic or sub launched missile. Or sabotage on critical infrastructure. (Remember foreign agents have previously sunk a ship in auck harbour and escaped NZ).

Fast jets may not help us in these situations. I realise saying no to fast jets is blasphemous on this forum but I feel for the cost they would impose we could beef up other capabilities that may have greater utility. I would rather see an extra credible frigate.

The next generation of combat aircraft may be optionally piloted. NZ p8s may have potential for coordinating loyal wingman type UAVs.
That maybe now, but what about in the future? What if the PRC ends up having a base somewhere in Melanesia or Polynesia? A base in the Solomon Islands would place NZ within the range of the PLAAF and PLANAF H-6K bombers.
xian h6 cr from kanton island kiribati & manus.jpg
That's the combat radius for the H-6K. The PLA has long range ALCM that are capable of striking NZ if launched from the H-6K.


I believe the bolded part in the previous quote above is still largely relevant today/tomorrow, with some adjustments of course (eg perhaps Guam instead of Singapore ... but also noting the likes of modern Singapore and its neighbors have their own modern and capable armed forces. Of course the USA plays a dominant role in the region whereas the UK doesn't, and Australia's capabilities across the spectrum or domains is first class), but would modify it to become roughly in this order, give or take:
(a) local defence.
(b) forward defence, involving our closest SW Pacific neighbors eg New Caledonia, Fiji, etc (and likely to be in conjunction with US, France, Australia anyway).
(c) assisting with the defence of Australia.
(d) the defence of shipping routes (primarily Tasman Sea, South Pacific and Southern Ocean but where practical also stretching from SE Asia to South America, as we did in WW2 with the RNZN Light Cruisers).
(e) SE Asia, Indo-Pacific ... Middle East, Europe etc.
(f) but also as well as kinetic efforts there is also cyber and space warfare to contend with (even if there were no direct military threat).

Of course we cannot do this all, in fact we can't as we are not a major player (apart from perhaps sending some niche elements to contribute to collective allied defence efforts if and where practical), but what will be expected to do at the very least is is to defend our own wider "neighborhood" so as to ensure the major players (USA, Australia etc) do not need to devote their critical resources away from their major areas of operations.

Of course also this is a multi domain effort but bringing it back to the ACF in a NZ/Pacific context (not expeditionary) ... again as per the bolded/quoted part for local defence (and ideally forward defence as in protecting the SW Pacific) an ACF (in conjunction with P-8A and long range maritime UAV assets & Navy) would likely be desirable to assist with the defence against the likes of submarines, raiders, merchant vessels (with concealed armaments, mine laying capability, potentially missile launch capability, perhaps in containers for example or aerial ISR assets etc), dozens if not hundreds of gray zone vessels that are likely to still be operating in the wider South Pacific region perhaps some of which also conducting signal/intelligence gathering and/or harassing merchant vessels or conducting sabotage on island or undersea infrastructure (data cables etc) and potentially the odd warship or so that could be transiting the region (even Iran sent a warship through the region a few months ago).

I don't think we necessarily need the latest 5th generation fighter (at this point in time) as we are not likely to face a peer threat, but something existing (4/4.5 gen & new or second hand initially) tasked to work with the P-8's and the proposed long range maritime UAV's would both protect and support these platforms (as well as needing a decent logistics tail and the critical trained personnel - but RNZAF tends to fair well with recruitment and retention anyway).
IMHO we don't require 5th gen aircraft at all. But we do require a fast jet strike aircraft, configured for maritime strike, that has a large combat radius coupled with a good weapons payload. The only one that meets this criteria is the F-15EX. Both the F-16 and F-18 have short legs in this context. The Eurofighter Typhoon is just to expensive to acquire and operate, plus it isn't operated by any of our Indo Pacific partners i.e., Australia, US, Japan, Singapore, and South Korea. However, the US, Japan, Singapore, and South Korea, all operate the F-15.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
National win the election and the 757’s will be heading to scrap yard and no replacement sought.
The next Govt will be faced with huge issues and defence will not be a priority and not even close, we currently have 880,000 on NZ super and within next 5 years that number will sharply rise to 1.25 million and NZ super is currently the Countries highest expenditure and the numbers receiving it and costs associated with it are only going to keep rising at a significant rate. And to be fair the amount those on super get really is below par with cost of living and needs to rise a significantly to keep our retirees heads above water.
Then we have Health that’s in reality underfunded, we have dropped significantly in terms of our OECD rating to close to the bottom of the pack, Pharmac needs its budget doubled and anything less is a total cop out, we are now at the very bottom of OECD countries in terms of modern medicines and treatments funded, how bad it is we are rated now as a 3rd World Country on this one.
Education wise have have 40% of our kids not attending school, our kids have fallen well behind the base line standards for numeracy and literacy on a World wide scale.
We are significantly short on housing in NZ that’s affordable, currently 30,000 on Public Housing Register and rising each year, every new immigrant, refugee adds to the pressures and we have employment skill shortages across numerous industries so immigrants that can fill these shortages are greatly welcomed but it sorts one issue and creates another with no easy fix or quick solutions.

It pains me to say it but defence is not and will not be a priority, we will never going forwards build back to anywhere close to what we had and for the defence of NZ will become the responsibility of Australia and the US should things turn pear shaped, our defence future will be small scale limited to a coast guard type force of fisheries and border patrol, HADR and the SAS and small peacekeeping type operations, anyone expecting more is going to be very disappointed.

There are 3 other events that are been planned for behind the scenes and all 3 are predicted to occur within the next 50 years and each year that passes moving forwards the chance of the event increases, those events are rated catastrophic events which means NZ does not have the capability to respond to the event and would need outside nations assistance and funding to both deal with and rebuild. The events are the Alpine Fault, Hikurangi Subduction Zone and Mt Taranaki Eruption, I have been involved in some work around Mt Taranaki eruption and even the best case scenario is bad news to both local and the NZ economy and will greatly impact our GDP, and to boot in past eruptions Mt Taranaki has erupted consistantly over a 10-12 year time frame and its effects have effected the entire North Island. The planning has been intense and at ground level its a very high priroty event and officials are clearly very concerned.

So when looking at defence and what we build to its more likely to be focused on how we best attend to local natural or catastrophic events rather that what could happen in the South China Seas.
They are all problems but don't affect our sovereignty unlike PRC efforts in the Indo Pacific. Just focussing on the PRC activities in the SCS is unsound because they have ideas upon the Pacific as a whole and the CCP aim is to replace the US as the hegemon within the Pacific. Whilst the US isn't the most altruistic of nations, it is a liberal democracy which the PRC definitely isn't, it being an authorative single party state that is a dictatorship.
An ACF will never be restored here, no public appetite and no political appetite for it.
The future of the NZDF will be more centred on the ability to respond to those 3x major natural disasters, Alpine Fault, Hikurangi Subduction and Mt Taranaki, all 3 will be hugely defistating on the Country in terms of lose of life, destruction, effects on economy and cost to rebuild and ability to rebuild from within. I can tell you all 3x are are rated as catastrophic events which would require outside assistance on a scale never seen in NZ’s history and that support from heavy transport aircraft would be in relative terms fast but the main support would need to come by ship which is not so fast.
So we would need to be able to respond first and foremost in those critical first 24/48 hours ourselves and we need to have a Defence Force built to respond to such events.
What we are likely to see procurred over the coming years are as follows,
- more helicopters for the airforce, which will likely be extra NH90 and a replacement of the A109 to a more medium lift helicopter such as AW139 and numbers totaling a mixed fleet of 20, thats 7 extra aircraft.

- C-27J Spartan or C-295 to replace the Kingairs, dont be too surprised these will be ex RAAF Spartan, the NZDF and current Govt were very impressed with what the Spartans were able to do in Cyclone Gabriel efforts this year and it highlighted a real gap in our capabilities.
Both the C-27J and C-295 do not meet our requirements at all. They can't go anywhere outside of NZ with a reasonable payload. We fond that with the Andovers. Read back though this and the RNZAF thread and you'll find this discussed in depth.
- MQ-9B Sea Guardian x4, again current Govt very impressed with what this platform offers and how it can assist the manned P-8’s, not be surprised to see these in NZ skies soon.
And the cost in toto is very high. You would require eight MQ-9B Sea Guardian to be effective and that means more fixed and mobile ground stations. They are the really expensive bit.
- 3x Harry deWolfe class OPV’s, behind the scenes a lot of interest in these ships and they are much larger than our current OPV’s and size matters moving forwards as does the ability to patrol the Southern Ocean and these will do that well.
As the SOPV yes but not for anything else. For the OPV replacement we need a ship about the size of the Anzac Class frigates, fitted out with both sensors and weapons allowing it to survive in a medium level contested environment and capable of undertaking convoy escort as well as other missions such as mine laying, mine detection, patrol work. Something that is a corvette / light patrol frigate.
- A new multi role ship, again size will be the important factor and don’t be surprised what the UK and Australia are looking at which is the BMT ELLIDA been top of the list, well dock, 50 bed hospital, multi aviation spots, ability to conduct underway replenishment and slightly larger than HMNZS Aoteroa and one to supplement Canterbury and then an extra to replace Canterbury.
NO. What is required for the Canterbury replacement are two vessels with a well dock. Either a LPD or LHD of about 12 - 15,000 tonnes displacement. Further a Joint Support / Logistics Ship with a well dock is required as well. This ship has AOR capability as well as dry and ammo stores.
As for frigate replacement, don't expect a like for like replacement, if you start thinking 3x Heritage class cutters based off what the US Coastguard are currently getting you will be on track with either an NH90 naval variant helicopter or a medium helicopter based off a commercial model likely front runners to replace Seasprite, I am talking bargain deal to purchase ex European cancelled order of the NH90.
NO. A USCG isn't going to last 30 seconds in medium level contested environment, let alone a high level contested environment. Secondly, and more importantly, such a capability does not meet NZ Govt policy requirements. The NH90 NFH, why? It's not operated by any of our partners AND it's expensive both to acquire, operate, sustain and maintain.

Have a look at these two maps. They show our AOMI (Area Of Maritime Interest below the equator but exclude our AOMI that fully extends into South East and Northern Asia. Think where our SLOC - trade routes go.
the-realm-of-new-zealand.jpg

nz-sar-region.jpg
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I could make your argument re submarines which are also an excellent deterrent.
Subs were looked at in the 1980s and quickly refused because they met none of the NZGs policy objectives.
If we were moving toward establishing an acf i wouldn't want to start with 2nd hand end of life 4th/4.5 gen fighters that our allies are wanting to retire. If we were going to do it I would want us to have a bit more ambition (I think the problem with our pollies is lack of ambition).
Definitely new build modern aircraft.
I used to think new build grippens would be the way to go. Meteor missiles. ; )
NO, no because none of our FVEY partners operate the Gripen. The NZ govt has become quite risk averse, and rightly so, in its dfence capability procurement.
 

Hawkeye69

Member
What you are basically suggesting will replace the RNZN's ANZAC-class frigates are some type of OPV. Whilst certainly possible, I do not consider such a drastic cut back in capability a certainty, as such a move would in essence transform the RNZN into what would be more like a Coast Guard type agency. There are certainly those within NZ who would likely desire such a change, but then there are definitely idealists advocating positions (passive non-compliance, anyone?) which are neither particularly realistic or rational.

Not only would such a move cede control of NZ's SLOC to anyone else, it would also consign NZ to irrelevance as an international partner-nation for maritime issues, threats or disputes. It would also exclude NZ from having any real voice or say international affairs, particularly those involving maritime issues and/or along the SLOC that NZ is reliant upon.

Such thinking again strikes me as more a sort of idealistic fantasy that NZ could, would and should become more a Non-Aligned nation, despite being so reliant on global trade and particularly with major trading partners like Australia and the US.
Like it or not the Navy will end up more Coast guard in nature and more aligned to deal with the effects of climate change and natural disasters, it’s the way it will play out. How long were both ANZAC frigates both in Canada at the same time out of action? And were they missed? Has the ACF been missed in the past 23 years?
The Public and the politicians right across the spectrum have 0:00% appetite for major defence rearmament, however what you will get buy into is a well equipped and trained Defence Force that is able to respond to the effects of climate change and natural disasters in a fast and proficient manner.

Anything else is simply a pipe dream.
 
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