NZDF General discussion thread

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
And or one air frame that is usable (yes I know is is about 3) is off to Niue... still working hard. When they retire them in a year or 2 I hope they get a good outro... :-/


Edit: opps wrong thread suppose to be in RNZAF Thread my bad.
 
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Gooey

Well-Known Member
And or one air frame that is usable (yes I know is is about 3) is off to Niue... still working hard. When they retire them in a year or 2 I hope they get a good outro... :-/

Edit: opps wrong thread suppose to be in RNZAF Thread my bad.
Still fell off my chair when I saw it actually flying though Nighthawk.NZ!!!
 

chis73

Active Member
Thanks Ngati for that report from Politik. The actual video of the Select Committee meeting the article referred to is on the FADTSC facebook page if anyone wants to watch it (link)

The issues I have with this 'grand new plan' to continuously update the P-8s are:
1. logistics - from what the air force officer appears to be saying, with updating systems every 2 years, I would assume at least 1 aircraft (perhaps more) is going to be continuously unavailable (being refitted). Probably another (of the 3 remaining) will be unavailable at the same time (being maintained/serviced/repaired). So, with only 4 aircraft in our fleet, we will effectively have at best maybe 2. Is that a reliable, a real, capability? I doubt it. That's is why we need at least the EMAC project approved & funded, if not an actual increase in the number of P-8s.
2. 60 years of history with the P-3s suggests he's in la-la land. The reason the P-3s were only spasmodically upgraded (ie. the RAAF replaced their P-3Bs with P-3Cs in the 1980s, we didn't; we missed out on many ASW upgrades the US & Australia did as well) is we simply couldn't afford it. Our budget isn't big enough for us to match the US (or Australia). The politicians will fail to fund it.
3. What do have left to give up if you are going to put all your resources into upgrading the P-8s?
 

chis73

Active Member
News just in...

Our Defence Minister has announced we are to have a new Defence Policy Review (but not as yet an actual White Paper, or a new Capability Plan).Story here.

First thoughts - That'll waste another year :(. We already have a reasonably good strategic plan - but you aren't even sticking to that.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
News just in...

Our Defence Minister has announced we are to have a new Defence Policy Review (but not as yet an actual White Paper, or a new Capability Plan).Story here.

First thoughts - That'll waste another year :(. We already have a reasonably good strategic plan - but you aren't even sticking to that.
Yep, now they won't have to do anything until after the next election. When anything comes up, they just have to say they are awaiting the results of the review. Just our pollies being their normal selves when it comes to defence.:rolleyes:
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Link to the document Defence Policy Review: Terms of Reference. The times are below.

1657185837765.png

As you can see from the image taken from P.5 of the document they aren't in a hurry, but to be fair it's not something that can be hurried. The next image details the governance of the Review and its stages.

1657186091998.png

Public consultation will be sought, but I suspect it will be ignored and filed in file 13. Earlier in the document they state that they are not going to do a DWP, stating that the DPR gives them more flexibility. That I doubt and have problems with the reasoning. Also this review will be driven by the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (National Security Group, Policy Advisory Group), who did the last public consultation on Defence, not the Ministry of Defence as is normal. So this is first and foremost a purely political review driven by Labour Party politics and ideology rather than by the Ministry of Defence and NZDF in conjunction with MFAT. That is not good.
 

Xthenaki

Active Member
Very sad indeed. Have no doubt where this government is heading with its lack of defence policy and see the final decision on any further major acquisitions being left to the next government when its elected at the end of next year.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Ok, the good points (from reading between the lines).

At long last we appear to be realising the potential of a fundamental shift away from the "idealism" and (lack of strategic) planning and foresight of the past 2 to 3 decades which was for a (smaller) post cold war defence force with continuously reducing capabilities (personnel, bases, equipment types) to fit the (smaller) funding envelopes to be provided by the governments of the day (eg the post cold war peace dividend which saw defence funded at around 1% of GDP for most of this period). This resulted in Defence becoming more and more "niche" to be better equipped and supported to fulfill peace-keeping and some peace-enforcement roles (for limited duration's) but at the expense of being able to better contribute to collective defence/war fighting efforts of our allies and partners (and sustain them), and also at the expense of our own "homeland" and "regional" (Pacific) security.

(The bad points would be if GOTD's then decided to reprioritise Defence within existing funding envelopes, eg around 1-1.5% of GDP or even slightly higher than it is now - it clearly needs to be higher. And/or by further cutting some existing capabilities to provide new capabilities (but surely there is nothing more than can be cut - we've reached the "skeleton" stage as the fat then the muscle was hacked off over the last 2-3 decades? So no there is nothing further that ought to be cut, it would be incredibly foolish to do so)!

So I don't think any of those "bad points" will result because (apart from growing defence spending over time) the Defence Policy Review ToR recognises Strategic Competition (point 3.1), the effects caused by Russia's invasion of Ukraine (point 7) and presumably the heavily redacted sections that follow (denoted by "s(6)a" of the Official Information Act refers to "prejudice the security or defence of New Zealand or the international relations of the Government of New Zealand; or" ... presume that section also refers to certain other high profile nation(s) that has been building up its war fighting capabilities and are well known to be wanting to also invade their neighbor(s) and also gain a strategic foothold in our region etc etc.

So the DPR ToR's Scope (sections 14 and 15) sets out this fundamental shift away from previous thinking as per the following:

15. The comprehensive Defence Policy Review process will cover:
15.1. our strategic outlook;
15.2. our defence interests and policy objectives;
15.3. a strategy for delivering the agreed policy objectives;
15.4. high level design principles to shape future force development and generation to best support our policy and strategy objectives;
15.5. detailed force structure development and generation of options;
15.6. indications of funding requirements to plan, develop, operate and sustain the future force structure;
15.7. defence organisational implications in delivering revised settings, including workforce and infrastructure implications; and
15.8. dependencies between defence policy and strategy, with the wider national security sector and international partner relationships.
And the references to future force design principles (section 20.2) and let's not forget earlier that it suggested a policy shift from a predominantly reactive, risk management-centred approach to one based on more deliberate and proactive strategy, with explicit and prioritised policy objectives (section 4), which perfectly aligns with the recommendations of the 2021 Defence Assessment.

However I agree with those saying the timeframes are looking to be too long, but NG nails it when he notes "but to be fair it's not something that can be hurried", I guess despite Defence knowing what needs to be done it still has to follow the bureaucratic processes in order to gain GOTD support to provide any business case funding. Sure that's the way it rolls, but it also provides uncertainty for Defence. (Sheesh, how come the Aussies (under their previous Govt) can announce many out of the blue many new initiatives i.e. post their defence assessments? Perhaps this is something else Defence can get to better understand/perhaps this is part of these DPR processes? Granted the Oz forums here explain about projects delayed or cancelled that has provided funding for new initiatives, would NZ Defence ever get those sorts of opportunities to be agile)?

But the other question is, will this also mean the Govt will further defer further DCP19 project funding until all these reviews are finished? The Opposition is noting (also what we here have been noting) is that Labour haven't made any major investment announcements for far in this term (instead they always reference their previous term when NZFirst was their coalition partner and pushed through the Poseidon, Super Hercs and Bushmaster acquisitions etc)!

Looking at the FADTSC hearing (courtesy of Chis73's post above), the issue with DCP19 project deferrals is stated as the lack of Defence personnel that can be brought into the projects (for various reasons). If this Labour Govt wants to do one thing right it would be to direct extra funding, right now, to Defence to bring back experienced staff/SME's that may have resigned (even on short term contracts with healthy bonuses/incentives to make it worth their while) either to work directly on procurement projects and/or to go back into the services (for a period of time) to free up serving personnel to be seconded to the Projects.

Secondly and this is critical, it needs to recruit or second personnel from overseas (again with healthy bonuses/incentives) to assist with these DCP19 (and future) Acquisition Projects (the Govt is spending billions on pet projects - it has the money, easy). Eg they could be looking at the likes of the UK MoD (since they are facing massive cuts) or whomever else from elsewhere that has experience and expertise on subject matters that relate to particular DCP19 projects.

In fact the whole premise of this announcement of a Defence Policy Review is to plan for and introduce new capabilities better suited to NZ security needs, which also means future acquisition projects will increase and therefore a need for additional experienced project personnel (working for both MoD and NZDF) will become more critical, particularly if Govt needs Defence to be better prepared for the changing global and regional security situation. The Govt can do this and it needs to do this ... now!
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
RNZ news report on the Defence policy review.

Professor David Capie from VUW's Centre for Strategic Studies clearly outlines the expectations.

Opposition concerned with yet more delays (a valid and fair point). But Defence is now getting what they have always wanted (a comprehensive stategic and force structure review), and I feel they should be supported by all of our pollies (which also means the Opposition will need to quick deliver if there is a change of government next year, and not themselves dither by reviewing the review (of the review of the review .....)!

(I'm trying my best to ignore the Green's views - wish the MSM would too! The Greens come across as a threat themselves to our national security interests with their radical idealism and advocacy. Enuff said of them)! ;)

 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
RNZ news report on the Defence policy review.

Professor David Capie from VUW's Centre for Strategic Studies clearly outlines the expectations.

Opposition concerned with yet more delays (a valid and fair point). But Defence is now getting what they have always wanted (a comprehensive stategic and force structure review), and I feel they should be supported by all of our pollies (which also means the Opposition will need to quick deliver if there is a change of government next year, and not themselves dither by reviewing the review (of the review of the review .....)!

(I'm trying my best to ignore the Green's views - wish the MSM would too! The Greens come across as a threat themselves to our national security interests with their radical idealism and advocacy. Enuff said of them)! ;)

We we shouldn't really accuse any political party in the Parliament of being a threat to national security, as much as we may like to. It's bad form and can create all sorts of misunderstandings, such as making Moderators twitchy about politics rules and all that.

We don't know anything about the upcoming DPS and DCP, hence it's far to early to say what it's going to look like. I don't want to speculate on it because any speculation is pointless and as such until more is known I would rather avoid it. All we know is that the DPS is going to happen and is programmed to be released during the election year. The DCP won't be released until after the election. We all know what the geostrategic situation is like at the moment and how it continues to deteriorate. I would say that the CCP's 20th Party Congress in November of this year will have a bearing on the situation in the Indo Pacific. If Xi Jinping wins his Third Term we most likely will see a continuation of the current CCP/PRC aggression. If he loses, it is difficult to say what will happen because it depends upon which faction is is the next strongest after the Jiang Zemin faction and what that faction controls. It also depends on how close the CCP/PRC decided to get with Russia. They play a long game and they would love nothing better than having Russia as a vassal state, and Putin's war with Ukraine may just give them that opportunity yet. That would be a very dangerous situation for us and the world.

This is Ardern's full speech on NZ Foreign Policy that she gave to the Lowy Institute yesterday A Pacific Springboard to Engage the World: New Zealand’s Independent Foreign Policy | Beehive.govt.nz It's full of the usual stuff for a NZ Labour government.

This from Richard Harman in today's Politico:

"Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s major foreign policy speech yesterday ended up leaving some key questions unanswered. Perhaps that was more obvious because she made the speech in Australia, the United States’ closest ally in the Indo-Pacific region. Her refusal to argue against China playing a role in the Pacific was hardly likely to win applause from some more hawkish elements in Canberra. Indeed there were even some in the elegant surrounds of Sydney’s Lowy Institute, where she made the speech, who raised their eyebrows at her unwillingness to commit to either side in the intensifying west against China contest in the Indo-Pacific.
At the same time, Australian Ministers and business executives speaking under Chatham House rules at the Australian New Zealand Leadership Forum were making it obvious that the Albanese government wants a thaw in the currently frozen relationship with China. But ultimately, Australia’s business relationship with China comes second to its assessment of its strategic position in East Asia. One Minister told the Forum that getting the United States back into the region would be very important. “This region is going to be very important, trying to get them engaged and trying to ensure that the Pacific islands not only remain free and strong but that we get the economic prosperity that’s been of so much benefit to our two countries spread throughout this region,” the Minister said. It is that Australian endorsement of the United States’ implicit security guarantee to the Pacific that Ardern appeared to distance herself from in her speech as she argued that New Zealand and the Pacific were “family.” “Ultimately, rather than increased strategic competition in the region though, we need instead to look for areas to build and cooperate, recognising the sovereignty and independence of those for whom the region really is home,” she said. “And so while we each maintain our independence, and New Zealand certainly does, we are part of a family, one that is incredibly important to us and central in our decision making.
“When expressing the principles of an independent foreign policy in this way, the principles of cooperation, of values and place, it would be easy to give the impression of a nice and tidy matrix from which we make decisions. “The honest reality is that the world is bloody messy. “And yet, amongst all the complexity, we still often see issues portrayed in a black and white way. “This is one of the challenges to an independent foreign policy. “It is also a challenge for all those who seek peace and stability through dialogue and diplomacy – at a time when there is so little room for error and misunderstanding."​


She appears to be changing our foreign policy on the hoof. I read a comment the other day from one commentator, can't remember who, that she's tailoring her speeches to the audience and each time she gives a speech our foreign policy changes. One moment we're hard on China and for the next audience we've gone soft on China. When I think about it this appears to be the case, and it gives the i pression that she and het government don't actually know what its foreign policy is.

So today she has a one on one with PM Albanese the Aussie PM. PMs reaffirm renewed trans-Tasman relationship | Beehive.govt.nz I wonder how many times she changed our foreign and defence policies in that meeting. They have "... agreed to annual formal bilateral meetings between our Ministers of Foreign Affairs, Defence, Finance and Climate Change." That's good WRT Defence and Foreign Affairs. I actually thought that they did that already.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
We we shouldn't really accuse any political party in the Parliament of being a threat to national security, as much as we may like to. It's bad form and can create all sorts of misunderstandings, such as making Moderators twitchy about politics rules and all that.
Yes fair point taken and my apologies (I was half tongue and cheek about it hence the wink emoji ... except that became out of place and therefore context after editing in a bit more which then changed the meaning. I'll take more care next time).

The Greens though (and the peace movement) are pushing the line that NZ should be factoring in "ethical investment" which essentially means not purchasing military hardware from companies that makes weapons of war that kills people (so ummm basically nothing from any military manufacturer) and at the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Select Committee (FADTSC) hearing that would also mean not buying military hardware from companies that are part of the nuclear weapons industry (the Greens spokesperson singled out Lockheed-Martin as an example), so essentially they would condemn NZ to not buying anything military related (ahhh just clicked - that now explains why they spat the dummy about purchasing the C-130J's .... because they come from LM)! Anyway thankfully they are in no position to action this (being a minor party) but expect them (and the peace movement) to continue to talk about this to try and sway public (and media) opinion (unfortunately they won't get any traction now with the public and media thanks to Putin's efforts and the CCP's efforts to destabalise the Pacific).

We don't know anything about the upcoming DPS and DCP, hence it's far to early to say what it's going to look like. I don't want to speculate on it because any speculation is pointless and as such until more is known I would rather avoid it. All we know is that the DPS is going to happen and is programmed to be released during the election year. The DCP won't be released until after the election. We all know what the geostrategic situation is like at the moment and how it continues to deteriorate.
Fully agree (and that's why I'm not pushing any wish-lists, until we hear some announcements too). I'm very interested (to find out, like everyone else) what Defence has in mind when it talks about "a policy shift from a predominantly reactive, risk management-centred approach to one based on more deliberate and proactive strategy, with explicit and prioritised policy objectives" (DPR ToR section 4). Hopefully that means capabilities tailored to specific needs or threats (rather than our current general approach of spreading out our thin capabilities to try and cover every possible scenario and in many places which is almost physically impossible eg to be in 2 or 3 places with the same asset)!

This is Ardern's full speech on NZ Foreign Policy that she gave to the Lowy Institute yesterday A Pacific Springboard to Engage the World: New Zealand’s Independent Foreign Policy | Beehive.govt.nz It's full of the usual stuff for a NZ Labour government.

She appears to be changing our foreign policy on the hoof. I read a comment the other day from one commentator, can't remember who, that she's tailoring her speeches to the audience and each time she gives a speech our foreign policy changes. One moment we're hard on China and for the next audience we've gone soft on China. When I think about it this appears to be the case, and it gives the i pression that she and het government don't actually know what its foreign policy is.
Yep I've also given up trying to analyse/comment on her and hence NZ's defence/foreign affairs direction under her watch because it seems to constantly change, as you note to her different audiences (i.e. it seems to be fickle).

They have "... agreed to annual formal bilateral meetings between our Ministers of Foreign Affairs, Defence, Finance and Climate Change." That's good WRT Defence and Foreign Affairs. I actually thought that they did that already.
I thought they did too (must be that audience/fickleness thing going on)!
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
I'm very interested (to find out, like everyone else) what Defence has in mind when it talks about "a policy shift from a predominantly reactive, risk management-centred approach to one based on more deliberate and proactive strategy, with explicit and prioritised policy objectives" (DPR ToR section 4). Hopefully that means capabilities tailored to specific needs or threats (rather than our current general approach of spreading out our thin capabilities to try and cover every possible scenario and in many places which is almost physically impossible eg to be in 2 or 3 places with the same asset)!
If NZDF do achieve this "policy shift"then they will have finally put the horse back before the cart. The issue with the extant reactive approach is that some event to which the NZG and NZDF need to respond has already happened. Therefore the existing capabilities must be utilised and so the risk-management aspect of the response is triggered and becomes more of an essential criteria for the response. This is not to say that a proactive strategy with explicit policy objectives negates the need for risk-management. All it does is remove the risk-management from the essential criteria list and it becomes a common aspect of the deliberations.
The problem will be in changing the cultures, and that is not just NZDF culture either, that are wedded to the reactive approach. The change will take time and effort (and money too). But it needs to happen so instead of endlessly talking about it, they all need to just get started.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
Yes fair point taken and my apologies (I was half tongue and cheek about it hence the wink emoji ... except that became out of place and therefore context after editing in a bit more which then changed the meaning. I'll take more care next time).

The Greens though (and the peace movement) are pushing the line that NZ should be factoring in "ethical investment" which essentially means not purchasing military hardware from companies that makes weapons of war that kills people (so ummm basically nothing from any military manufacturer) and at the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Select Committee (FADTSC) hearing that would also mean not buying military hardware from companies that are part of the nuclear weapons industry (the Greens spokesperson singled out Lockheed-Martin as an example), so essentially they would condemn NZ to not buying anything military related (ahhh just clicked - that now explains why they spat the dummy about purchasing the C-130J's .... because they come from LM)! Anyway thankfully they are in no position to action this (being a minor party) but expect them (and the peace movement) to continue to talk about this to try and sway public (and media) opinion (unfortunately they won't get any traction now with the public and media thanks to Putin's efforts and the CCP's efforts to destabalise the Pacific).



Fully agree (and that's why I'm not pushing any wish-lists, until we hear some announcements too). I'm very interested (to find out, like everyone else) what Defence has in mind when it talks about "a policy shift from a predominantly reactive, risk management-centred approach to one based on more deliberate and proactive strategy, with explicit and prioritised policy objectives" (DPR ToR section 4). Hopefully that means capabilities tailored to specific needs or threats (rather than our current general approach of spreading out our thin capabilities to try and cover every possible scenario and in many places which is almost physically impossible eg to be in 2 or 3 places with the same asset)!



Yep I've also given up trying to analyse/comment on her and hence NZ's defence/foreign affairs direction under her watch because it seems to constantly change, as you note to her different audiences (i.e. it seems to be fickle).



I thought they did too (must be that audience/fickleness thing going on)!
Well if Lockheed are a problem for The Greens they should protest Fire and Emergency NZ for buying LM rural fire trucks. Or Police for acquiring a number of different vehicles. Or customs or corrections.....
Reality is not a place the greens like to visit frequently.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
If NZDF do achieve this "policy shift"then they will have finally put the horse back before the cart. The issue with the extant reactive approach is that some event to which the NZG and NZDF need to respond has already happened. Therefore the existing capabilities must be utilised and so the risk-management aspect of the response is triggered and becomes more of an essential criteria for the response. This is not to say that a proactive strategy with explicit policy objectives negates the need for risk-management. All it does is remove the risk-management from the essential criteria list and it becomes a common aspect of the deliberations.
The problem will be in changing the cultures, and that is not just NZDF culture either, that are wedded to the reactive approach. The change will take time and effort (and money too). But it needs to happen so instead of endlessly talking about it, they all need to just get started.
Thanks for clarifying as I misunderstood the situation, so after doing some quick swotting to understand that risk management in a military context (and there appears to be variations in the way it is phrased) is the process of "identifying and assessing the hazards, developing controls and make risk decisions, implement controls, and supervise and evaluate" (eg that "balance the risk costs with mission benefits"), so think I now understand one is planning for scenarios that when it happens a response is triggered i.e. reacting ... so then would a proactive strategy mean (eg) anticipating any challenges and with prioritised policy objectives, be better prepared to minimise (or deny) the ability of a threat/hazard to eventuate or present itself?

And is the issue of changing the cultures you mean (eg) the likes of having sufficient preparation/training in place, logistics at the ready, the means to deploy (rapidly) at the ready, reinforcements in reserve and so on to have any real effect?

Or perhaps in reality for NZDF, enough capability/capacity to self-deploy, and that can also be independently sustained, when slotting into an allied or coalition operation?

If so, then when or if they get started it suggests a different look to how the NZDF is resourced at present!
 

Alberto32

Member
On a separate note, what's your thoughts on NZ securing undersea telecommunications cables from tampering, or deliberate sabotage during war time.

With more cables being set up now and in the near future, is it time to focus on a counter submarine force, as well as a sensor network and possibly drone based submarines, which can cost les, than manned submarines, but also offer options for tasking assets to secure our shipping lanes?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On a separate note, what's your thoughts on NZ securing undersea telecommunications cables from tampering, or deliberate sabotage during war time.
That's a threat that isn't just a wartime one and / or unique to NZ. It is a common threat to any maritime nation and more of a threat than people realise. The VMF (Russian Navy) have submarines and other submersibles that are specifically designed for such purposes amongst other things. The PLAN (Peoples Liberation Army Navy - PRC) undoubtedly have similar capabilities, as does the USN, probably Marine Nationale (French Navy) and maybe the RN. Such capabilities and the missions using them are very secret. Even if we were had capabilities to monitor and protect the cables, where do you do the protection? The Pacific Ocean is a very big place, it being the largest ocean on the planet.
With more cables being set up now and in the near future, is it time to focus on a counter submarine force, as well as a sensor network and possibly drone based submarines, which can cost les, than manned submarines, but also offer options for tasking assets to secure our shipping lanes?
We currently have two frigates and four aircraft (2 P-3K2 Orions have been decommissioned) capable of ASW (Anti Submarine Warfare). There used to be a SOSUS network in the Hauraki Gulf that was used for research and other things, but whether or not it still exists is unknown. Such things are rarely spoken about just like everything in the submarine and ASW world. It's far easier to get a tax exemption for life and money out of the taxman than it is to get information from submariners and ASW practitioners.

NZ would never look at submarines because it's not in our CONOPS and never has been. Somebody suggested it in 1984 and it got as far as the nearest scuttle. We could never afford them and won't ever to be able to. They cost a fortune to own and operate, plus they don't meet our requirements. After WW2 we were offered an aircraft carrier by the UK, which we probably should have taken instead of a modified 1930s 6in light cruiser. We had the experienced people to fly and fix the aircraft with a goodly number of Kiwis who served in the RN FAA as aircrew, mechanics / technicians, and on the flight decks of RN carriers during WW2. Whereas the RAN had to start from scratch when they received their two carriers. A carrier and six frigates would have been a far better RNZN force structure for the Pacific than the cruiser we had. The days of cruisers projecting power in the Pacific had died during WW2 because carrier borne aviation had put paid to that. So it has to be horses for courses, if you've ever followed the nags you'll know what I mean.
 

Teal

Active Member
Good morning All
The below link is from Youtube, its a Sky news vid ‘On thin ice: Rising tensions in the Arctic’ . I found it interesting, if you squint your eyes and look downwind, I see a very similar fight for resources (ignoring the trade routes aspect of the vid) looking forward 15 odd years towards the leadup to the revamp of Antarctica and the roles various States will play. The year 2048 will come around very fast and as a Southern Ocean administrator, major staging post and with Antarctica based facilities, should be prepared and equiped to operate in the " cold white" like the Norwegian's ?

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Good morning All
The below link is from Youtube, its a Sky news vid ‘On thin ice: Rising tensions in the Arctic’ . I found it interesting, if you squint your eyes and look downwind, I see a very similar fight for resources (ignoring the trade routes aspect of the vid) looking forward 15 odd years towards the leadup to the revamp of Antarctica and the roles various States will play. The year 2048 will come around very fast and as a Southern Ocean administrator, major staging post and with Antarctica based facilities, should be prepared and equiped to operate in the " cold white" like the Norwegian's ?

You have to consider the differences in access to the the Arctic and Antarctic. Many of the players in the Northern hemisphere are local. Potential adversaries contesting Antarctica are in the wrong hemisphere.
 

Teal

Active Member
I agree with what you say, interest, distance and location counts. NZs location and Ross sea access to the ice puts us in a unique situation. Resourses will dictate some big players, not all NH countries, digging their toes in . I feel the postering, placement of pers and equipment in the lead up 2048 will become an issue NZ may have to deal with. As seen in other parts of the world, inc pacific , certain countries have no respect for the rule of international law , so breaching Treaties, like the Antarctic, will mean nothing.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I agree with what you say, interest, distance and location counts. NZs location and Ross sea access to the ice puts us in a unique situation. Resourses will dictate some big players, not all NH countries, digging their toes in . I feel the postering, placement of pers and equipment in the lead up 2048 will become an issue NZ may have to deal with. As seen in other parts of the world, inc pacific , certain countries have no respect for the rule of international law , so breaching Treaties, like the Antarctic, will mean nothing.
You are right and two of those certain countries, Russia and PRC are big players in Antarctica. The PRC are very cagey about their stations down there and apparently foreign visitors are actively discouraged. To my mind that hints of breaches of the Treaty being conducted by the PRC and the most obvious would be military and minerals surveying.
 
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