NZDF General discussion thread
- Thread starter NZLAV
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Don't get me started on that new math. Grrr.
Gracie1234
Well-Known Member
Just to cover myself and make sure people were paying attention, I did the math incorrect on purpose. 
Our MIA DEFMIN has spoken and imparted his wisdom and Shangri La 2022. Minister of Defence addresses premier Defence Summit on climate security | Beehive.govt.nz Nothing of substance.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Wait ??? we have a Defence Minister??? when did that happen?
In all seriousness what I read was mostly drivel ...
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Running his mouth about the impact of climate change on Antarctica and the Southern Ocean and NZDF activities there just months after cancelling the SOPV...
Its not often I am lost for words , but the two below quotes leave me sitting in silence...almost
Quote - “We also know that climate change is adversely impacting Antarctica and the Southern Ocean. As one of the few militaries that routinely operates in this area, the New Zealand Defence Force must be prepared to adapt its operational and capability requirements accordingly."
As just mentioned above, to say this after allowing the dateless deferment of the SOPV is nothing more than international peacocking....The Opposition parties should be jumping on this and publicly shaming him. Sadly I wont hold my breath.
Quote - "The New Zealand Defence Force is committed to reducing net zero emissions by the end of 2025 in line with the Carbon Neutral Government Programme. As part of this, the NZDF will progressively replace its commercial vehicle fleet with electric or hybrid vehicles, with a goal to be 50% electric or hybrid by 2030."
So now we have to spend what little money we have on an ridiculously expensive "white fleet" , and the electrical infrastructure to allow daily NZ based operations, also making them non deployable , eg the Colorado Utes sent to Sollies (testing memory here sorry).
More coffee needed, perhaps something stronger, Must be a "splice" with my name on it
This is an interesting article published today by Victoria University of Wellington's Democracy Project. Geoffrey Miller: Why is New Zealand’s defence minister visiting South Korea? – Democracy Project It suggests that our MIA DEFMIN's visit to the Shangri La Discussion and to South Korea has underlying purposes that are not being discussed openly by the government. Maybe this is correct and maybe it might not be, but of interest is the comment about NZ participation in a QUAD Plus trial. I think that if Geoffrey Miller is correct in his assertions, then a fundamental change in NZ foreign and defence policy is quietly afoot, and when everything is in place maybe presented as a fait accompli. If, and that's a really big if, this govt manage to pull that off without any big stuff ups, then I will be very pleasantly surprised. However it will cause them real angst from their political left who will howl in rage over it, especially because it involves the US. The Greens will also howl in rage as well because of American involvement and it involves weapons other than clubs, and things that go bang.
I do believe that it is essential for us to have formal security agreements with both Japan and South Korea, because a I have said earlier they like us are NATO's Indo-Pacific Partners and besides that it gives us closer and better relationships with them. That means in Japan's case we will be able to source weapons etc., from them if we so desire, and in both cases exercises and more exchanges etc. It's basically a win - win situation.
I do believe that it is essential for us to have formal security agreements with both Japan and South Korea, because a I have said earlier they like us are NATO's Indo-Pacific Partners and besides that it gives us closer and better relationships with them. That means in Japan's case we will be able to source weapons etc., from them if we so desire, and in both cases exercises and more exchanges etc. It's basically a win - win situation.
Interaction between New Zealand and NATO:
New Zealand has been engaged with NATO since 2001. Since 2012, work is being taken forward through an Individual Partnership and Cooperation Programme. Since 2014 under the Partnership Interoperability Initiative, New Zealand participates in the Interoperability Platform, which brings Allies together with selected partners that are active contributors to NATO’s operations. For the first time, in December 2020, New Zealand participated in a NATO Foreign Ministers Meeting, together with Australia, Finland, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Sweden and the European Union High Representative/ Vice President of the European Commission, to discuss the shift in the global balance of power and the rise of China. This was only one of the latest and more visible political exchanges NATO has had with New Zealand at various levels in recent years. The NATO Secretary General travelled to New Zealand in August 2019.
NATO - Topic: Relations with New Zealand
New Zealand has a deep collaboration with NATO over many years. Unlike most people on this forum (including myself) New Zealand, by participating in all these NATO activities, has a very good understanding of both the value and the limitations of an alliance like NATO. Whereas we are reading some information on the internet, add our own speculations and form an opinion. New Zealand (and Australia, South Korea, and Japan) get to see "what's under the hood" of NATO. Perhaps the answer is not to create an "Asian NATO", perhaps the answer is to expand NATO to the region and change the name of the organization to reflect this... Time will tell how this will develop moving forward.
No matter how it plays out I suspect the lessons from NATO will somehow be applied in the region, and China will perhaps be unhappy with the result. But as long as it reduces the risk of those countries being attacked militarily, it is most likely worth annoying China a bit.
More on NATOs collaboration with the 4 Asia-Pacific partners: NATO - Topic: Relations with the four Asia-Pacific partners
New Zealand has been engaged with NATO since 2001. Since 2012, work is being taken forward through an Individual Partnership and Cooperation Programme. Since 2014 under the Partnership Interoperability Initiative, New Zealand participates in the Interoperability Platform, which brings Allies together with selected partners that are active contributors to NATO’s operations. For the first time, in December 2020, New Zealand participated in a NATO Foreign Ministers Meeting, together with Australia, Finland, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Sweden and the European Union High Representative/ Vice President of the European Commission, to discuss the shift in the global balance of power and the rise of China. This was only one of the latest and more visible political exchanges NATO has had with New Zealand at various levels in recent years. The NATO Secretary General travelled to New Zealand in August 2019.
NATO - Topic: Relations with New Zealand
New Zealand has a deep collaboration with NATO over many years. Unlike most people on this forum (including myself) New Zealand, by participating in all these NATO activities, has a very good understanding of both the value and the limitations of an alliance like NATO. Whereas we are reading some information on the internet, add our own speculations and form an opinion. New Zealand (and Australia, South Korea, and Japan) get to see "what's under the hood" of NATO. Perhaps the answer is not to create an "Asian NATO", perhaps the answer is to expand NATO to the region and change the name of the organization to reflect this... Time will tell how this will develop moving forward.
No matter how it plays out I suspect the lessons from NATO will somehow be applied in the region, and China will perhaps be unhappy with the result. But as long as it reduces the risk of those countries being attacked militarily, it is most likely worth annoying China a bit.
More on NATOs collaboration with the 4 Asia-Pacific partners: NATO - Topic: Relations with the four Asia-Pacific partners
What hostilities would those be? I doubt the US could afford a large scale war with China. US debt is around 30 trillion dollars, plus an additional 160 trillion in unfunded liabilities, they can’t afford to go to war with anyone.
How can the Chinese be a benign power when the US has military bases surrounding them? The US went ballistic when the Russians wanted to install nukes in Cuba, why shouldn’t the Chinese be upset when the US has surrounded them with bases and then starts a process to arm Australian nuclear subs?
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@KiwiRob Australian nuclear *powered* submarines, and the process was started from the Australian end according to all the sources I've seen.
I understand your ardent anti-Americanism, but pillory them for the many faults they genuinely have
oldsig
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I thought defence priority was inspecting grazing lands to ensure that taxes on sheep and cow farts and belches were equitably applied.
Ships planes and trucks obviously emit way too much pollutants and therefore must be eliminated!
WTF is going on over there?
This is the NZDF thread. If you want to discuss a Indo-Pacific variant of NATO take it to the appropriate thread, so I have moved them all here Indo Pacific strategy | Defence Forum & Military Photos - DefenceTalk
Your anti American sentiments are clouding your logic and you are now making baseless claims. You have gone from being a reasonable poster to being a pseudo troll with some of your posts and the Moderator Team made a decision during your ban that if you didn't up your game that your time on here was over. Unfortunately you haven't. The fact that you also have decided to run a one-sided feud with a Moderator hasn't gone unnoticed either. Therefore you are permanently banned from the Forum because of your poor posting behaviour and conduct.
Most (75%) US government debt is held by US citizens, & a lot of the rest is held by US corporations.
China didn't try the "be nice to your neighbours" strategy which might have persuaded them that they didn't want US bases. Like Putin, Chinese leaders (& especially Xi) reject the fable of the sun & the north wind. Bullying your neighbours, trying to intimidate them, & ignoring or rejecting international law, e.g. Chinese submarines passing through Japanese waters submerged, or the Chinese coastguard intimidating, & even seizing, Indonesian fishing boats in Indonesian waters, makes neighbours jittery & inclined to seek friends elsewhere. Of course.
Gracie1234
Well-Known Member
This is the most i have seen yet, hence sharing. NZ-Solomons security deal in development
The Minister talked about lifting defence capability and spending to align to what the government wants them to do. Also stated he was happy to see the alignment of our partners and that we would fully support them. Almost split my coffee while reading this.
The Minister talked about lifting defence capability and spending to align to what the government wants them to do. Also stated he was happy to see the alignment of our partners and that we would fully support them. Almost split my coffee while reading this.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
That's OK I DID spit my coffee
out reading that all over my puter monitor...
I read it yesterday.
Better coffee than squirt. That would've been traumatising and you'd have to go and visit the padre chief stoker.That's OK I DID spit my coffee
It appears that there are things going on behind the scenes that we aren't aware of, which is usual and is as it should be. If this is correct then it is a major shift in NZ foreign and defence policy and will definitely further align us with the west, which is actually good. However at the same time we should strengthen our diplomatic and defence relationships with Singapore, South Korea, Japan and Indonesia as well as the Pacific Island Forum nations. They should be our priorities along with our FVEY partners. It will cost treasure, time and effort but it is important. The CCP / PRC are going to screech but that's their prerogative and they are well practised in the art of acting like spoilt toddlers, spitting the dummy, throwing their toys out of the cot, and /or throwing their nappy (diaper for Americans) at you as well, when they get told no and / or don't get their way.
Giving this government's history of making announcements about announcements and lack of action on policy, I will wait until I see see something actually happen before I accept it as a change in direction and policy.
Yeah Henare talks about lifting spending but says he isn't convinced about the 2% target... and he's talking about a 'small work plan' with the Solomon's.... gees that sounds huge (not!). I'm not getting too excited yet...but I've always assumed we don't hear much of what is going on behind closed doors. Henare's going to have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to get any meaningful defence spend increase...if he can be 'convinced' to use his own words! Now it looks like we might have a stockmarket 'correction' on our hands... then the prospect of retrenched Govt spending.... sigh!
"Henare said the Solomons delegation did not raise why the country had chosen to sign the security deal with China, but made it clear that maritime security was one of their top priorities".... exactly, so stop dragging the chain on the EMAC project... do it right too, don't skimp on $$$... this project would plug this gap quickly & fairly effectively... freeing up the P8 to do what it will need to be be doing fairly soon,