NZDF General discussion thread

Xthenaki

Active Member
To add further -

Our main political parties need to discuss and project our perceived defence needs for the future. Agreement on this is vital if NZ is to function and be of worth to both ourselves and our allies. Australia(s recent change of govt does not appear to have threatened ongoing defence objectives and NZ govts need to change over with the same fluidity. A govt defence forum needs to shut down unproductive onjections and open their forum to meaningful and beneficial discussion - eg limiting green party views- allow participation but only if its constructive. A closer and more meaningful engagement with Australia is essential. We should now be looking at our geographical isolation in real terms and getting to grips with our needs.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
To add further -

Our main political parties need to discuss and project our perceived defence needs for the future. Agreement on this is vital if NZ is to function and be of worth to both ourselves and our allies. Australia(s recent change of govt does not appear to have threatened ongoing defence objectives and NZ govts need to change over with the same fluidity. A govt defence forum needs to shut down unproductive onjections and open their forum to meaningful and beneficial discussion - eg limiting green party views- allow participation but only if its constructive. A closer and more meaningful engagement with Australia is essential. We should now be looking at our geographical isolation in real terms and getting to grips with our needs.
Only thing i would add is fly some over like last night to uk, hand over some gold or silver or both and get those 3x c130j specials. I was never near that project but have spoken to someone who was. We want the capability in those planes. "Like compass call lite" was the description given.
Commonality on some systems would be a management task but not an obstacle and would give us a discrete capability while enhancing a grave airlift weakness that has been allowed to persist for too long.
Then some advanced tac. Laser pods from Lickheed or Paytheon.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Defence Minister Peeni Henare says $525m Budget spend will 'keep the lights on'

Very discouraging to say the least.

The whole defence force pay structure jncluding living allowances and livable housing needs to be brought up to an attractive standard. This should be the priority at the moment and needs to start NOW.

Sorry forgot - the need for a new defence minister.

An interim relief financial package is needed to assist accross all three services.

Air force - Some light helos MH60*s /AW109*s. Establish the maritime serveillance HADR unit to support the P8*s (What was going to be does not appear to have happened)
Navy - Acquire two more bigger and better armed OPV*s (two more hulls on the water upgrading the loss of 2 IPV*s - The Southern Patrol vessel would follow later it is hoped.
Army - Add some sting to our mobile units - Drones and missiles (not another lot of new uniforms)
What's a MH60* light Helicopter? The only H-60 Helicopters I know of is the Sikorsky H-60 Hawk family and they are in the same class as the NH-90
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Only thing i would add is fly some over like last night to uk, hand over some gold or silver or both and get those 3x c130j specials. I was never near that project but have spoken to someone who was. We want the capability in those planes. "Like compass call lite" was the description given.
Commonality on some systems would be a management task but not an obstacle and would give us a discrete capability while enhancing a grave airlift weakness that has been allowed to persist for too long.
Then some advanced tac. Laser pods from Lickheed or Paytheon.
Morning Shane are you saying "get those x c130j specials" for primarily supporting NZSOF (and perhaps RNZIR's high readiness patrol group) type taskings or as additional general tactical airlifters (but with extra bells and whistles fitted or fitted for but not with)?

Surely with the changes occurring within the wider region (and to strengthen the ANZAC relationship) could this be considered as it ticks cost/benefit boxes (and it allows for extra airlift freeing up the 40 Sqn Hercs for their regular but important airlift support roles). Ties in with foreign policy objectives in terms of NZ's contribution to promoting stability and should be welcomed by defence partners as a helpful contribution (as it adds some "teeth" instead of the govt's trademark "kindness", as well as the intelligence gathering factor).

Would also need funding for additional aircrew but would also expect greater interest by attracting former and current aircrews and future recruits. Surely the DefMin has that covered with his "People" priority. ;)

As for the DefMin, it shows the Govt is still (desperately) singing from the same song sheet (Situation Normal but becoming Another ** if they don't change course soon, as they invariably do after criticism is piled upon them from the pundits (yes it takes that much sticking out from under the gleaming swept carpet to make them consider real change, as we saw with Ukraine from "blankets" to "guns"))!
 
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Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
Morning Shane are you saying "get those x c130j specials" for primarily supporting NZSOF (and perhaps RNZIR's high readiness patrol group) type taskings or as additional general tactical airlifters (but with extra bells and whistles fitted or fitted for but not with)?

Surely with the changes occurring within the wider region (and to strengthen the ANZAC relationship) could this be considered as it ticks cost/benefit boxes (and it allows for extra airlift freeing up the 40 Sqn Hercs for their regular but important airlift support roles). Ties in with foreign policy objectives in terms of NZ's contribution to promoting stability and should be welcomed by defence partners as a helpful contribution (as it adds some "teeth" instead of the govt's trademark "kindness", as well as the intelligence gathering factor).

Would also need funding for additional aircrew but would also expect greater interest by attracting former and current aircrews and future recruits. Surely the DefMin has that covered with his "People" priority. ;)

As for the DefMin, it shows the Govt is still (desperately) singing from the same song sheet (Situation Normal but becoming Another ** if they don't change course soon, as they invariably do after criticism is piled upon them from the pundits (yes it takes that much sticking out from under the gleaming swept carpet to make them consider real change, as we saw with Ukraine from "blankets" to "guns"))!
Ill hedge and say that you could argue the intention for either approach - but I think it is clearly likely that it in reality will be both. Based on the rate of geo political change and that it still only leaves a fleet of 8 with few other relevant capabilities across air force or wider nzdf. Having the extra ears during transits of the sphere of interest i think is a wise investment. The forewarning that can give wont be enough to rebuild combat capabilities but at least might allow us to call for help.
Extra airlift and 2nd tier maritime patrol augmentation is always a good thing.
And if the squaddie rumour mill is more truth than alcohol content (this time) i dont think we have the luxury of choosing just sof dedicated or high readiness as both are not near reasonable strength. It really is a disgusting situation combat power wise. People going back decades should be held liable for professional negligence.
 

Xthenaki

Active Member
What's a MH60* light Helicopter? The only H-60 Helicopters I know of is the Sikorsky H-60 Hawk family and they are in the same class as the NH-90
I apologise - my mistake. What I was looking at was 2nd hand US helos that could be refurbished and bought as cheaper replacements to supplement our NH90's with lighter types being acceptable - single engine.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I apologise - my mistake. What I was looking at was 2nd hand US helos that could be refurbished and bought as cheaper replacements to supplement our NH90's with lighter types being acceptable - single engine.
Actually we'd be better going with new build AW139M. They would cover a multitude of sins, are marinised and can be armed reasonably well. Just bite the bullet and buy the buggers. The AW139 and AW169 is operated by civilians here in NZ, Australian and worldwide so has a large spares and support base. The NH90 is a couple minimum short, so if we were to acquire another 2 -4 of them then we could have them in their primary role as battlefield support. We would use the AW139 for the plethora of other taskings that require doing and they would take the load off both the NH90 and the naval combat helicopters. That way we don't have the Seasprite or its replacement ferrying bionic sheep or whatever. Instead they can use their budgeted hours for their primary role.

WRT to the MC-130Js the question really is would they be VfM? They would be a liability in contested airspace and its the warfighting capability that's the main concern. We do however need to increase our airlift and another 3 C-130J-30s, plus 3 A400M / C-2s would be ideal. In fact maybe the extra 3 C-130J-30 could be KC-130J-30 and that adds a capability to the force. At some stage we might decide to look at installing A2AR capabilities on the NH90 fleet.

We've all commented on our MIA Minister. I quite haven't figured out who he's working for yet. But it sure ain't for Defence, that's for sure. I wonder if he's a Matt Robson disciple? Robson's further left than Mao Tse Tung. He makes the Green Party look like ACT Party supporters. I am sure that David Seymour would see the humour in that. Robson was a Minister in the Clark government when she axed the ACF and luckily for us he wasn't Minister of Defence because if he was, it wouldn't only have been the ACF that would've been axed. The frigates, Orions, all of the Army's offensive weapons would've been gone and he probably would've tried to disband NZDF in toto.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My view on all this is that we need to start to appreciate that the world is getting to be a significantly more dangerous place and start to think on how can we defend ourselves against aggression. this we may have to do as I think any attack on Australia would involve that aggressor wanting to neutralize us to stop us becoming a staging post for the US to help Australia. This of course would mean that we would have to deal with the initial attack ourselves, which we currently have little ability to do. My personal thinking is that firstly we need to know what is going on in our area, both on sea and in the air and we have to have the means to neutralise any threat entering our area. This means we have to stop just playing lip service with the first task which all governments have put on their respective tasks for the armed forces which has been 1. Defend New Zealand.
All other taskings should be subservient to this, however these other taskings would be normally carried out when their is no requirement to defend NZ.
In the 1980's the defence of NZ by the armed forces was taken more seriously, hence the upgrading and acquisition of additional units of the A4's and P3's.
This was thought to provide a significant deterrent at that time as neither the Chinese or the USSR had aircraft carriers at that time so this force was a credible deterrent.
With Helen Clark's benign strategic outlook excuse NZ politicians in general simply lost the plot and the defence forces were run down by both major parties to the sorry state they are in now. This has to change and we need to be more focused in respect of our freedom and sovereignty as without it we cannot carry out any other functions that are normal for our society.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
My view on all this is that we need to start to appreciate that the world is getting to be a significantly more dangerous place and start to think on how can we defend ourselves against aggression. this we may have to do as I think any attack on Australia would involve that aggressor wanting to neutralize us to stop us becoming a staging post for the US to help Australia. This of course would mean that we would have to deal with the initial attack ourselves, which we currently have little ability to do. My personal thinking is that firstly we need to know what is going on in our area, both on sea and in the air and we have to have the means to neutralise any threat entering our area. This means we have to stop just playing lip service with the first task which all governments have put on their respective tasks for the armed forces which has been 1. Defend New Zealand.
All other taskings should be subservient to this, however these other taskings would be normally carried out when their is no requirement to defend NZ.
In the 1980's the defence of NZ by the armed forces was taken more seriously, hence the upgrading and acquisition of additional units of the A4's and P3's.
This was thought to provide a significant deterrent at that time as neither the Chinese or the USSR had aircraft carriers at that time so this force was a credible deterrent.
With Helen Clark's benign strategic outlook excuse NZ politicians in general simply lost the plot and the defence forces were run down by both major parties to the sorry state they are in now. This has to change and we need to be more focused in respect of our freedom and sovereignty as without it we cannot carry out any other functions that are normal for our society.
Definitely. What was it that we used to say? Come the day of the glorious revolution, which usually meant Friday arvo unless you worked at DEF HQ then it was Friday lunch time, then off to the pub for debriefing, after lunch at the Midland in Lambton Quay or the Lion Pub next to the brewery up Molesworth Street. Actually they served really good steaks and pizzas in that Lion pub.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
It looks like the pundits are noticing the governments inconsistencies with its defence settings and are starting to write about it.

Defence analyst Peter Greener (from Victoria University of Wellington's Centre for Strategic Studies) writes about the non-appearance of the defence white paper in 2022 and poses some timely questions.

In March 2022, the Report of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the 2020/21 Annual Review of the Ministry of Defence and the NZDF, noted in the section headed ‘Strategic competition in the Pacific’ that, “We heard that there will not be a white paper in 2022. However, Defence will be recommending to Ministers terms of reference that look at the development of defence policy settings in a more proactive approach, and the force structure that would support those settings.” Does this mean that there might be a new white paper in 2023, will we see another government defence policy statement, or will there be a revised defence capability plan?
I think the answer to those questions is actually contained in the statement Mr Greener quoted above in which "Defence will be recommending to Ministers terms of reference that look at the development of defence policy settings in a more proactive approach, and the force structure that would support those settings.”

This appears to align with the Defence Assessment 2021's sections 4.1 (NZ's current defence policy settings), section 4.2 (A defence policy approach for a more challenging environment) and in particular section 4.2.1 (A proactive, strategy-led approach to defence policy) which states "The principal change we recommend is for New Zealand’s defence policy to shift from a risk management-centred approach to one based on a deliberate and proactive strategy, with more explicit – and explicitly prioritised – policy objectives. A more strategy-led approach would better enable Defence – as part of broader national efforts – to pre-empt and prevent, as well as respond to, security threats, and better build resilience against the incremental impacts of climate change and other security challenges".

So what I'm thinking is there may not be further formal white papers or government defence policy statements, or revised defence capability plans until, again, the terms of reference "that look at the development of defence policy settings in a more proactive approach, and the force structure that would support those settings" is concluded.

In some respects (and if I understood this correctly) then this is positive in which defence planning could become more agile if the geo-political situation warrants change.

The negatives though are apparent in the latter part of Mr Greener's article in which he notes the "interference" (my words not his) of the Minister of Finance, now "interfering" with defence capability planning by delaying upcoming projects and with zero clarity as to when they will start (the examples used being the Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability project and the Southern OPV project).

The justification for this is of course supposedly the impacts of covid and its impacts on finances. I say supposedly because I'm puzzled why this is so when many, many other government projects (with costs far, far exceeding what defence is asking for) are being green-lighted on a regular basis. I can only conclude (rightly or wrongly) that the answer is simple, by delaying a project (or actually a number of projects) then not only the Vote appropriation can be saved/re-directed elsewhere but also the budget funding for subsequent years can also be saved/redirected elsewhere in the meantime (perhaps for these other green-lighted projects). Anyway if the Minister of Finance is currently "picking and choosing" what defence projects can proceed (based on future costs and saving/redirecting elsewhere) then let's hope this is questioned by defence and media pundits for some clarity and is a short-lived, temporary exercise anyway? As it also makes a mockery of say the Prime Minister (or DefMin or Foreign Affairs Minister) when they discuss defence and strategic planning with their overseas counterparts, surely?

The rest of Mr Greeners article has some interesting analysis and fascinating potential developments. He discusses the $4b already being spent on current projects (P-8, C130J and Bushmaster, noting that $103m has been committed to the protected mobility vehicle project but the whole project was between $300-600 million, so there must be more to come (assuming some or all if isn't being "nicked" by the Minister of Finance of course)!

Greener mentions he recently interviewed the Opposition Spokesperson for Defence (Tim van de Molen) who is saying he wants to grow the NZDF more than the 1,500 new personnel outlined in DCP19 and also re-assess what capabilities the Defence Force requires for the different strategic environment NZ now faces. If I can predict 2023 (?) I would say the realism being displayed by both the major and minor Opposition parties should rub off onto the Govt and hopefully we may see a more meaningful defence budget next year ... but why wait because I don't think the geo-political situation can afford the Govt to wait almost another whole year, so if one is to be optimistic then perhaps if Defence is successful with their proposed changes to have a more proactive approach to defence policy settings could we finally start to see meaningful change from the Govt sooner rather than later? Particularly if criticism from the experts continues to grow?

 
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Teal

Active Member
I'm often told that I have a suspicious mind, it has served me well over many years. I do wonder (playing the long game) whether the actions seen by China today regarding the Pacific Islands has to do with the 2048 Antarctic treaty renewal (or revisit conditions is probably a better way to put it) The actions today, moving forward 10-15 years would be effectively building a defensive wall to close off New Zealand and Eastern Australian trade routes and military protection to the north. Just as China has with the South China Sea reefs/islands. This would make any military action to assist (secure) access to Antarctica and invariably includes NZ far easier, as we are a significant gateway to Antarctica.

Moving forward from that concept, as mentioned by others in previous posts what we need obviously is more eyes (domain awareness) on the Pacific.

In my view (trying to stay away from "future fleets" ) what we need is a minimum of three, if not four more P8's and armed accordantly. That gives us basically a capability to where we could easily/constantly patrol or enforce to the north and Southern Ocean.
The second part of this "Domain awareness" within our Realm to the north and the south is whether we should actually be looking at purchasing the E7 Wedgetail (3xMin). They could theory be based with the Australian Squadron or standalone here in New Zealand. Along side the P8's they are able to give us physical and electronic domain awareness on the scale that we've never had before (flying super hoovers). China would dislike this level of collection, I can hear their screams now for just suggesting it. I feel that the E7 should be the EMCA project.
To now go alongside these two assets I would propose the KC-46 tanker (again 3x Min) to replace the B757 and keep the two above airframes aloft longer. Air New Zealand has corporate knowledge, facilities in/for the B767 and engines.
Whether second hand airframes could be utilised like other Nations have is a possibility, would speed up delivery times at the expense of airframe life. With the type of flying the E7 does would probably not be such an issue.
Just my ponderings, coffee time.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It looks like the pundits are noticing the governments inconsistencies with its defence settings and are starting to write about it.

Defence analyst Peter Greener (from Victoria University of Wellington's Centre for Strategic Studies) writes about the non-appearance of the defence white paper in 2022 and poses some timely questions.
It's Dr Peter Greener actually just to be give him his correct title. He's a good analyst and well worth following and his article is quite astute analysis. I do agree with your assessment that the current Minister of Finance is interfering far more than usual in Defence and that would be typical for him. He's of the Helen Clark school of thought. I don't think that we'll see a DWP from this Labour govt and even if they did write one I dread to think of the consequences of it because it would be written poorly and full of sound bites, with no coherent policy and guidance in it. They would totally ignore anything from MOD & NZDF.
8 more to go... When China splashing and flashes money around with no restrictions on how it is spent... who has the better deal... (not the same security deal as with Soloan Islands but it is a start and building up to that...)
China signs deal with Samoa; Fiji leader meets with Australian minister
China signs deal with Samoa; Fiji leader meets with Australian minister
Frank the lad is a canny operator and he'll play off Australia and China. The PRC FM might find Frank difficult to deal with because Frank can be prickly too, and the usual CCP blustering won't work with him. He conned Putin out of military equipment. If Wang gets to stroppy Frank will tell him to exit stage left.

H-6K CR ex Solomon Islands.jpg

This is just a reminder of the image I did a while back of the combat radius of a Xian H-6K launching from the Solomon Islands. If the PLA were to obtain a base in Samoa, Fiji, or Tonga, the threat to NZ and Australia becomes even greater than it would be from the Solomon Islands.
I'm often told that I have a suspicious mind, it has served me well over many years. I do wonder (playing the long game) whether the actions seen by China today regarding the Pacific Islands has to do with the 2048 Antarctic treaty renewal (or revisit conditions is probably a better way to put it) The actions today, moving forward 10-15 years would be effectively building a defensive wall to close off New Zealand and Eastern Australian trade routes and military protection to the north. Just as China has with the South China Sea reefs/islands. This would make any military action to assist (secure) access to Antarctica and invariably includes NZ far easier, as we are a significant gateway to Antarctica.

Moving forward from that concept, as mentioned by others in previous posts what we need obviously is more eyes (domain awareness) on the Pacific.

In my view (trying to stay away from "future fleets" ) what we need is a minimum of three, if not four more P8's and armed accordantly. That gives us basically a capability to where we could easily/constantly patrol or enforce to the north and Southern Ocean.
The second part of this "Domain awareness" within our Realm to the north and the south is whether we should actually be looking at purchasing the E7 Wedgetail (3xMin). They could theory be based with the Australian Squadron or standalone here in New Zealand. Along side the P8's they are able to give us physical and electronic domain awareness on the scale that we've never had before (flying super hoovers). China would dislike this level of collection, I can hear their screams now for just suggesting it. I feel that the E7 should be the EMCA project.
To now go alongside these two assets I would propose the KC-46 tanker (again 3x Min) to replace the B757 and keep the two above airframes aloft longer. Air New Zealand has corporate knowledge, facilities in/for the B767 and engines.
Whether second hand airframes could be utilised like other Nations have is a possibility, would speed up delivery times at the expense of airframe life. With the type of flying the E7 does would probably not be such an issue.
Just my ponderings, coffee time.
You are right about the ending of the Antarctic Treaty. There are significant untapped resources in and around the continent and the PRC will be wanting to get their hands on those. BTW they aren't the only ones either, but I would think that they would be the most rapacious. They are quite secretive about what they are doing at their, IIRC, five stations on the ice now. There is also the strategic component as well of having military bases there. You can have access for ground based anti satellite systems to destroy polar orbiting satellites, and ground based ABMD systems for over the pole ICBM launches. The Russians already have such an SSBN ICBM profile because they have reasoned correctly that most of the US ICBM detection and defence systems are north, north west, and north east facing. So if they have a SSBN in the Southern Ocean, say down near the Ross Sea, they can launch an ICBM salvo north and the Americans, won't necessarily detect it straight away. Also the sub will successfully sneak away because there will be no ASW assets for at least 1,000 nm to detect and attack it.

I would stay well away from the KC-46 for the foreseeable future because of all of the problems it has and, the huge losses Boeing has had to bear in its development de to their over promising and underperforming. They will price gouge to regain those losses. We would be better off going with the A330MRTT. It's already used by the RAAF, RAF, RSAF and others. The RAAF are taking it to its next level and we'd be better going along with them. As much as I like the E-7A Wedgetail, for what you suggest the P-8A would be the ideal aircraft along with the MQ-9B SeaGuardian. The P-8A does have an an surveillance capability, although nothing like the E-7A.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
8 more to go... When China splashing and flashes money around with no restrictions on how it is spent... who has the better deal... (not the same security deal as with Soloan Islands but it is a start and building up to that...)
China signs deal with Samoa; Fiji leader meets with Australian minister
China signs deal with Samoa; Fiji leader meets with Australian minister
Has there been any more movement on the possible Chinese port/airfield development at Asau, Samoa recently? Cheers China has plans for an old US WWII port in the Pacific, and it's adding to fears that Beijing is up to something
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Folks, just to note that this new economic and security agreement (with 10 Pacific Island states) isn't quite the same as the recent CCP/Solomon Islands agreement, for a start apparently there isn't mention of "bases" or naval ship visits in the agreement. Instead it concentrates on economic development, climate change, developing the fishing industry, education (things that many nations around the world have also signed agreements with the CCP including Western nations). But of course some of these raise some very justified concerns for example allowing better (unrestricted?) access for the CCP's huge fishing fleets and building processing factories (however will there be jobs for locals or will the CCP FIFO their own workers?) or the setting up of Confucius Institutes etc.

However the other aspects of this new economic and security deal appear quite concerning, for example mention of CCP building telecommunications and data infrastructure (expect that to be compromised, privacy wise & intelligence gathering, as well as the possibility to control these networks including turning them off etc) and some of the policing arrangements.

If it isn't happening already then the likes of US, Australia, NZ etc, need to be better informing their Pacific Island counterparts and officials of the data security concern aspects. But more needs to be done, there needs to be regular meetings/briefings with these officials and counterparts in a general sense anyway. There also then needs to be investment from the likes of US, Aust, NZ etc, in telecom/data infrastructure etc.

There also needs to be regular top level engagement with Pacific Island nations. There are already frameworks there, for example the Pacific Island Forum, which consists of 18 members (Australia, Cook Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Fiji, French Polynesia, Kiribati, Nauru, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Niue, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Republic of Marshall Islands, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Tonga, Tuvalu, and Vanuatu). Observer status has been granted to the likes of the U.S. territories of American Samoa, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands.

The key to remember that this is a forum of Pacific Islands (not necessarily and exclusively eg NZ's, or Australia's, let alone the US's (or even China's)), so it would be bad manners for the likes of Aust & NZ (or the US) to "muscle in" and tell the PIF members what to do (they need to be treated as equals not subserviently like the CCP is now doing - their arrogance is unbelievable), instead I would suggest increasing the US presence somehow (unsure if that would be directly as in direct involvement or via their US territories as proxies and perhaps Hawaii ... will leave that for the diplomats to best advise).

But also setup a second type of "forum" (or grouping etc) with the US playing a key role, the emphasis (or point of difference to the existing PI Forum) is that it it is heavily weighted in the areas of maritime (and air) domain surveillance and security, technology eg data/telecom/infrastructure aid and development (including offering educational/scholarship opportunities for Pacific Islanders to study abroad but also provide local employment opportunities to bring these people back to work in their own nations eg telecom and data industries, which would need developing.

Trade would also be key component (the CCP is proposing a Free Trade Agreement with the ten Pacific nations, which will provide benefits for the locals, but also opportunities for the CCP to better exploit their resources), the advantage of a US backed FTA type agreement is that social/environmental aspects will be better safeguarded, and critically, ensure the Pacific nations aren't totally reliant on the CCP FTA (meaning less chances of acquiescence to the CCP ... otherwise the CCP could exploit this PI block say at the UN or UNSC by having them not support (or abstain) on motions of wider geo-political significance that are against the CCP etc).

Another component could also be security related, involving the Pacific nations' miltary (or Police forces) to be better involved with eg maritime surveillance, SAR, HADR response/first responders with disaster relief provisions already on site. It could mean setting up a maritime/military type coordination centre in say Fiji for example (being the largest and somewhat centrally placed location), which would offer prestige for Fiji and people of the Pacific.

With a US led type of enhanced military cooperation Mutual Assistance Programme (with leadership/support from Australia and NZ, and possibly Japan, EU, UK etc), building upon Australia's successful and well received Pacific Patrol Boat programme, why not extend this to certain nations having basing for, for example, short/medium patrol aircraft (similar to the Australian border patrol air surveillance programme, perhaps they could lend some expertise)? So these aircraft would be operated by the Pacific Islands themselves (but perhaps with support from US/Aust/NZ personnel), perhaps as a multinational initiaitve (eg similar to how NATO shares a C-17 fleet), Training would likely occur the US or Aust or NZ (or all of them via a shared support programme which could divide up certain roles etc).

Then what about a couple of shared/multinational OPV or Coast Guard type vessels (or something like the PSV that Australia has acquired) which could range further, deliver aid, but also keep an eye and investigate CCP vessels that are reportedly surveilling (and tinkering with?) underseas data/optics cables? These are just some random ideas but as well as being "eyes on the ground or air or at sea" it also provides employment and economic development opportunities to lift what are essentially poorer nations that are reliant on tourism or aid or fishing etc to provide income for their nations.

For NZ (and Australia, as well as the US) it provides opportunities for their defence forces to be better engaged and connected to the region, via basing and support of air and sea patrol assets, and personnel training.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Finally I don't have time now to do a write up as it is rather late but these very recent articles are well worth a read if anyone is interested.



This comes from this very informative article by Cleo Paskal.


But I'm going to quote from her article what President David Panuelo of the Federated States of Micronesia (FSM) has discussed in his leaked letter to other Pacific leaders, because he clearly and concisely articulates what the concerns are and the wider geo-political ramifications (IMO much better than what our own leaders have articulated)!

Article quote starts: VIEW FROM THE REGION

So, what do people in the region think? Another document that leaked is a letter written by President David Panuelo of the Federated States of Micronesia (FSM) to his fellow Pacific leaders. He writes what is being proposed is “the single-most game-changing proposed agreement in the Pacific in any of our lifetimes.”

“The language of these documents is a sign that China has faithfully done its homework, as the choice of words are, on their face and at first glance, attractive to many of us—perhaps all of us. They speak of democracy and equity and freedom and justice […] Where the problems arise are in the details, and the details suggest that China is seeking […] to acquire access and control of our region, with the result being the fracturing of regional peace, security, and stability.”

“[The agreement] seeks to ensure Chinese control of ‘traditional and non-traditional security’ of our islands, including through law enforcement training, supplying, and joint enforcement efforts, which can be used for the protection of Chinese assets and citizens. [It] seeks Chinese control and ownership of our communications and infrastructure, as well as customs and quarantine infrastructure […] for the purpose of biodata collection and mass surveillance of those residing in, entering, and leaving our islands, ostensibly to occur in part through cybersecurity partnerships.”

“I am aware that the bulk of Chinese research vessel activity in the FSM has followed our Nation’s fiber optic cable infrastructure, just as I am aware that the proposed language in this agreement opens our countries up to having our phone calls and emails intercepted and overheard.”

This level of understanding and openness about China’s political warfare threat—and the possibility of it spilling over into kinetic—is exceptional from a national leader. President Panuelo’s country does not recognize Taiwan, and yet he wrote: “What we are seeing with the proposed 2nd PRC-PICs Foreign Ministers Meeting and its accompanying outcome documents are an intent to shift those of us with diplomatic relations with China very close into Beijing’s orbit, intrinsically tying the whole of our economies and societies to them. The practical impacts, however, of Chinese control over our security space, aside from impacts on our sovereignty, is that it increases the chances of China getting into conflict with Australia, Japan, the United States and New Zealand, on the day when Beijing decides to invade Taiwan.”

“To be clear, that’s China’s long-term goal: to take Taiwan. Peacefully, if possible; through war if necessary.”

Article quote ends.

Another recent article also well worth reading is:
The Diplomat: It's Game On in the Pacific.

 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
A pretty big focus on China and Security on Q and A yesterday. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a
A big call to review and lift our game on engagement and defence capability. This is the most discussion we have had in the media for a long time. This has to be good. I am starting to think this might even be part of the election discussion next year.
As China increases its engagement they will be looking for defence bases at best or at least make it more difficult for us to operate in the region. I do feel they will want to get this tied up so they can focus on the Antarctic when the treaty expires. All of this can happen below the threshold of war. The pressure on NZ is just going to increase and if we do not act we will be handing the Pacific and Antarctica to a foreign power. I do hope our leaders understand the consequences of their actions or inaction in the case of our Minister.
 
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recce.k1

Well-Known Member
8 more to go... When China splashing and flashes money around with no restrictions on how it is spent... who has the better deal... (not the same security deal as with Solomon Islands but it is a start and building up to that...)
China signs deal with Samoa; Fiji leader meets with Australian minister
China signs deal with Samoa; Fiji leader meets with Australian minister
Just on the deal with Samoa, at this stage we don't know the details of the final bilateral agreement and what was signed, for example was Samoa able to pick and choose what it wanted to pursue with the CCP or did it have to agree to "everything"?

Radio NZ interviewed the editor of the Samoa Observer newspaper (Alexander Rheeney) this morning and he said the bilateral agreement details are still "sketchy" (they are hoping to have a press confeence with the Samoan Govt later today to find out more) but at this stage it sounds like what is known from the Saturday meeting is that a certificate is to be given for the new Arts and Culture Centre (I'm unclear if this is referring to compliance or something else) and an exchange of letters for a Police fingerprints laboratory (I've seen it raised elsewhere why is this even needed when usually the likes of the NZ Police liaise with the Samoan Police, as it will allow CCP access to biometric data etc). Note that these are all projects started under the former Samoan Administration.

Alexander Rheeney states the details of the Economic and Technical Cooperation are unclear, as the joint statement released says projects are yet to be determined.

But basically, like many places, China has been developing infrastructrure particularly health and education via loans so for the local population living there none of this appears unusual. However he also mentioned they (the Samoan Observer) published the letter from President David Panuelo of the Federated States of Micronesia, so perhaps that will bring a new context into the equation!


The other thing of note in the last few days is that the US is also working hard on these issues and Fiji has signed up to a US Indo-Pacific agreement (perhaps something else for discussion etc).
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
A pretty big focus on China and Security on Q and A yesterday. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a
A big call to review and lift our game on engagement and defence capability. This is the most discussion we have had in the media for a long time. This has to be good. I am starting to think this might even be part of the election discussion next year.
As China increases its engagement they will be looking for defence bases at best or at least make it more difficult for us to operate in the region. I do feel they will want to get this tied up so they can focus on the Antarctic when the treaty expires. All of this can happen below the threshold of war. The pressure on NZ is just going to increase and if we do not act we will be handing the Pacific and Antarctica to a foreign power. I do hope our leaders understand the consequences of their actions or inaction in the case of our Minister.
Interview on Youtube, for the geographically interrupted.

NZ must invest in military to counter China: Analyst | Q+A 2022 - YouTube
 

Arclighy

Member
A pretty big focus on China and Security on Q and A yesterday. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a
A big call to review and lift our game on engagement and defence capability. This is the most discussion we have had in the media for a long time. This has to be good. I am starting to think this might even be part of the election discussion next year.
As China increases its engagement they will be looking for defence bases at best or at least make it more difficult for us to operate in the region. I do feel they will want to get this tied up so they can focus on the Antarctic when the treaty expires. All of this can happen below the threshold of war. The pressure on NZ is just going to increase and if we do not act we will be handing the Pacific and Antarctica to a foreign power. I do hope our leaders understand the consequences of their actions or inaction in the case of our Minister.
Just a quick note that the ABC is reporting that the Chinese Pacific Agreement has been "shelved"for now. Not a lot of detail as yet but a very intersting development.
 
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