NZDF General discussion thread

[NZLAV]

New Zealand could defend itslef from a medium-level threat if it had a decent air force combat force such as 34+36 second hand F-16's and several more frigates (total of 4-6). New Zealand is in a very isolated position so therefore they would have plenty of time to prepare for a counter attack. A moderate number of F-16's would do this. In the future if a different political party is in control and decided to change the policy of defending New Zealand against a low-level threat to a medium-level threat then New Zealand may be able to hold its own. The best they could do at the moment is set up a naval blockade and arm the orions with harpoons so they can lay hell on the invaders.

 

[StingrayOZ]

NZ doesn't have to be a independant fighting force, capable of individual missions and expressions of power projection. It shouldn't aim to be a small scale version of that.

Australia is by far the most powerful regional player. Once it obtains its Destroyers, LHD's, F-35's it will be able to project its power way past the limits of NZ territory.

NZ is never going to face a land attack on home soil. However deployment with Australian forces is a extremely likely situtation, and the way things are heading, there are going to be lots more of those regionally and globally.

NZ should target specific areas where Australia could definately need assistance, expertise.

RNZAF - Forget fighter jets. A few competent trainers would be fine, maybe they could be armed if required. Helicopters and lifters are valuable. Maybe a few Spartan lifters would be in order, suiting NZ maybe better than the C-130's. These would intergrate well with Australian forces. C-17's? Over kill!

RNZN - A third frigate. That would assure that one frigate is avalible at anyone time. More patrol boats? Something that I think NZ could concider is a submarine if they had the money, or alteast a co crewed NZ/Aus boat..

 

[NZLAV]

In the situation of a super power conflict between...say USA and China. I think the New Zealand land forces and navy would be a formidable force to fight beside the Americans, British and Australians.
What could New Zealand do in order to protect itself from a medium force (amphibious vessels with STOVL aircraft, frigates, etc)?

 

[StingrayOZ]

NZ forces are naturally going to get deployed usually where Australian forces are. They train a great deal together, share a great deal of common interests and generally get along (HAHA). So what areas could Australia do with assistance.

I think a submarine or two would be a huge benifit to RNZN. To defend itself from a far more superior navy. It also can project power, do recon/surveliance, and the crewing requirements are quite low. Australia is actually short on submarines (and crew). Submarines can also operate independantly if NZ ever required it.

It would add another level to the navy that it doesn't have. Another one or two submarines to Australias 6 would hugely increase the capablilities of all of them. Enabling more patrols and missions. Subs can also deploy special forces, again something NZ could offer to any multinational force.

It can also assist in protecting NZ shipping, which is something I doubt Australia would be able to do during war time.

Australia is most likely going to retire some of its Adelaide Frigates and Fremantle patrol boats. Many of these are still operational and are being retired more due to crewing concerns. Picking up one or two of these would bolster NZ's forces.

While I would love to see NZ add a Destroyer to its capabilities I can't see it happening. It would make a fantastic flagship vessel. Australia will be really hard pushed to make do with three destroyers to escort its LHD's, so there would be a need for it. Again, power projection, protecting shipping etc.

I think NZ could take its pick of what it wanted. However I don't think NZ has the political will to significantly upgrade its defence capabilities, but then again I'm not living there.

 

[Tasman]

NZ forces are naturally going to get deployed usually where Australian forces are. They train a great deal together, share a great deal of common interests and generally get along (HAHA). So what areas could Australia do with assistance.

I think a submarine or two would be a huge benifit to RNZN. To defend itself from a far more superior navy. It also can project power, do recon/surveliance, and the crewing requirements are quite low. Australia is actually short on submarines (and crew). Submarines can also operate independantly if NZ ever required it.

It would add another level to the navy that it doesn't have. Another one or two submarines to Australias 6 would hugely increase the capablilities of all of them. Enabling more patrols and missions. Subs can also deploy special forces, again something NZ could offer to any multinational force.

It can also assist in protecting NZ shipping, which is something I doubt Australia would be able to do during war time.

Australia is most likely going to retire some of its Adelaide Frigates and Fremantle patrol boats. Many of these are still operational and are being retired more due to crewing concerns. Picking up one or two of these would bolster NZ's forces.

While I would love to see NZ add a Destroyer to its capabilities I can't see it happening. It would make a fantastic flagship vessel. Australia will be really hard pushed to make do with three destroyers to escort its LHD's, so there would be a need for it. Again, power projection, protecting shipping etc.

I think NZ could take its pick of what it wanted. However I don't think NZ has the political will to significantly upgrade its defence capabilities, but then again I'm not living there.

The idea of a submarine arm is certainly interesting and would be a new adventure for New Zealand. The RAN has made no secret of its desire for eight submarines but is struggling to man the six it has. Perhaps a first step in this direction would be for NZ to help man a couple of RAN subs. This would help Australia and develop expertise that would enable the follow on to the Collins class to consist of six RAN and 2 RNZN boats with common maintenance and training arrangements.

Re the transfer of Fremantles and Adelaides I believe the former are worn out but there should be enough life left in the modernised FFGs that might enable one to be transferred when the AWDs join the RAN.

Re the last comment I think we need to be optimistic as the premise of this thread is that a new government wants to improve NZ's status as a regional power.

Cheers

 

[StingrayOZ]

Well certainly setting up a submarine arm would be something Australia would definately be able to assist with.

Perhaps start up a NZ crew for a collins, which can be rotated onto the subs, or intergrate NZ personel into the collins crews and form a NZ crew from that.

I suppose key issues would be the $500 million for each sub if collins prices are anything to go by. Then there would be some issues to be cleared regarding US technologies and New Zealand. However, it would be a execellent opportunity for NZ to patch up some A**US damage and perhaps forge a closer relationship.

But I think NZ operating subs would be the most benifical for NZ, Australia and the region. Many nearby nations have a frigate to spare for a mission, or a destroyer can be arrange from UK or US. But submarines, more so blue water capable are extremely rare, with nuclear boats from US and UK extremely busy with normal patrols, a few in the region operating subs, even fewer with trained crews, with collins like capabilities.

With a new class of submarines being constructed in ~2020 now would be a excellent opportunity to start a program so details can be sorted and crews trained and see if the program has worth.

It would be fantastic to see 8 highly capable submarined working in the region, making the entire venture more affordable and more effective.

 

[ren0312]

The idea of a submarine arm is certainly interesting and would be a new adventure for New Zealand. The RAN has made no secret of its desire for eight submarines but is struggling to man the six it has. Perhaps a first step in this direction would be for NZ to help man a couple of RAN subs. This would help Australia and develop expertise that would enable the follow on to the Collins class to consist of six RAN and 2 RNZN boats with common maintenance and training arrangements.

Re the transfer of Fremantles and Adelaides I believe the former are worn out but there should be enough life left in the modernised FFGs that might enable one to be transferred when the AWDs join the RAN.

Re the last comment I think we need to be optimistic as the premise of this thread is that a new government wants to improve NZ's status as a regional power.

Cheers

I really do not see how New Zealand can find the budget to operate, 2 half a billion US Dollar submarines, even at between 2 to 2.5 per cent of GDP for defense, New Zealand only has a defense budget of 2 to 2.5 billion dollars for 2005, at one billion US Dollars, that will take up half of New Zealand's budget for that year just to purchase those 2 submarines, assuming a defense budget equivalent to 2 per cent of GDP, even at 2 per cent of GDP, or a 2 billion dollar defense budget for 2005, New Zealand does not have the budget to operate a squadron of Block 52+ F-16s like the one Greece or Singapore has, so it has to make do with a combination of MB-339s and Block 52+ F-16s, and at 2.5 per cent of GDP, or 2.5 billion dollars for 2005, it just has the budget to operate a squadron of them, so given this situation with regards to funding, I really do not think operating 2 top of the line SSKs such as the Collins or U-214s for New Zealand will be a likely option, and 2 to 2.5 per cent of GDP for defense under a National government already verges on being unrealistically optimistic, since New Zealand's defense budget as of now is only 1 per cent of GDP, New Zealand's ability to be a regional power ultimately is limited by its population of only 4 million.

 

[Lucasnz]

Interesting thread. Here's the way I see it. The primary role of the any defence force is the defence of the nation it serves. I don't think the NZDF has that focus. From a NZ perspective the types of threats facing NZ are

• all low level
• and with the exception of terrorism are all martime based

.
That means NZ needs a capable navy and maritime air strike capability (P-3's with ASM etc). I don't think a Falklands size force threating NZ is viable, but there maybe something between the low level threat (two of three ships / subs laying mines, threating shipping etc) and a Falklands sized force that could be an issue. Ideally NZ's focus should be on meeting the low level threats and dealing with regional problems.

Navy
2 x Upgraded ANZAC's
3 x Corvettes
2 x OPV's

An upgrade project to equip NZ's "OPV" craft with the weapon, sensor and combat systems necessary to perform a limited combat role. They were designed to operate 76mm guns and other weapons, but on the basis of cost and political ideology this was decided against. A medium calibre gun (57-76mm) with "SMART" munitions, CIWS/SAM system and an appropriate combat system and sensor suite should be the minimum level of capability these craft operate, IMHO and could provide a useful "Tier 2" combat capability for RNZN, in addition to their patrol functions...

I agree there is room for a 76mm with which the OPV could provide a limited surface combat capability but there is no space for CIWS / Tetral or a limited ASW capability. In addition if you look at the plans on the net, there is no magazine for Maverick, Torpedos or weapons that could provide a ship based helicopter CAS capability. Let the OPV's chase fishing boats and buy corvettes instead.

4 x IPV's (upgraded to 25mm for possible regional deployment)
3 x MCM (Replacing the Diving Tender etc)
1 x Tanker
1 x MRV (Actually I'd like two)
1 x Survery

I think a submarine or two would be a huge benifit to RNZN. To defend itself from a far more superior navy. It also can project power, do recon/surveliance, and the crewing requirements are quite low. Australia is actually short on submarines (and crew). Submarines can also operate independantly if NZ ever required it.

NZ rejected that idea in the early 80's due to there lack of flexbility (i.e. Disaster relief etc). Until NZ has an reasonable size surface fleet I'm don't think any government could justify buying Submarines.

Army

34 x 105 mm L118 Light Gun

Actually its more like 20

The army's got a lot of good equipment, just not enough, so I'd be looking to increase as a key area of focus

• Javelin (By international standards were very light on Anti Tank)
• Artillery (Say to 155mm - 3 regular and 2 reserve 6 gun battery)
• Mistral

In addition I'd be looking to stand up a Regular Force Group trained and equiped to operate off the MRV.

AirForce
A lot of upgrades and modernisation going on at the moment that will see a more capable airforce is some ways. However I would

• Follow the Quigley report and reduce to number of MB339 to about 9-12 and acqurie around 18 second hand combat aircraft. The Combat aircraft provide a deployable force, while the MB339 provide a low level capability.
• Upgrade the ASW processors on the P3
• Acquire a moderate number of ASM
• Increase the number of LUH currently been tendered for to ensure a light attack heli capability

The NZDF has much of what it needs but for NZ's own security and to ensure it can continue to operate effectively in the region it needs an expensive tweak.

 

[Tasman]

I really do not see how New Zealand can find the budget to operate, 2 half a billion US Dollar submarines, even at between 2 to 2.5 per cent of GDP for defense, New Zealand only has a defense budget of 2 to 2.5 billion dollars for 2005, at one billion US Dollars, that will take up half of New Zealand's budget for that year just to purchase those 2 submarines, assuming a defense budget equivalent to 2 per cent of GDP, even at 2 per cent of GDP, or a 2 billion dollar defense budget for 2005, New Zealand does not have the budget to operate a squadron of Block 52+ F-16s like the one Greece or Singapore has, so it has to make do with a combination of MB-339s and Block 52+ F-16s, and at 2.5 per cent of GDP, or 2.5 billion dollars for 2005, it just has the budget to operate a squadron of them, so given this situation with regards to funding, I really do not think operating 2 top of the line SSKs such as the Collins or U-214s for New Zealand will be a likely option, and 2 to 2.5 per cent of GDP for defense under a National government already verges on being unrealistically optimistic, since New Zealand's defense budget as of now is only 1 per cent of GDP, New Zealand's ability to be a regional power ultimately is limited by its population of only 4 million.

I think a 150% budget increase (which 2.5% GDP would involve) would enable the navy to move from 2 to 5 major units (say 3 frigates and 2 submarines). However, whilst the arrangement suggested above would be valuable for regional power projection, in company with Australia, I would agree that it may not be the best way to tie up additional funding. If the NZDF did have such a funding windfall it would be just one option that could be considered.

Interesting thread. Here's the way I see it. The primary role of the any defence force is the defence of the nation it serves. I don't think the NZDF has that focus. From a NZ perspective the types of threats facing NZ are

• all low level
• and with the exception of terrorism are all martime based

.
That means NZ needs a capable navy and maritime air strike capability (P-3's with ASM etc). I don't think a Falklands size force threating NZ is viable, but there maybe something between the low level threat (two of three ships / subs laying mines, threating shipping etc) and a Falklands sized force that could be an issue. Ideally NZ's focus should be on meeting the low level threats and dealing with regional problems.

Navy
2 x Upgraded ANZAC's
3 x Corvettes
2 x OPV's

I agree there is room for a 76mm with which the OPV could provide a limited surface combat capability but there is no space for CIWS / Tetral or a limited ASW capability. In addition if you look at the plans on the net, there is no magazine for Maverick, Torpedos or weapons that could provide a ship based helicopter CAS capability. Let the OPV's chase fishing boats and buy corvettes instead.

4 x IPV's (upgraded to 25mm for possible regional deployment)
3 x MCM (Replacing the Diving Tender etc)
1 x Tanker
1 x MRV (Actually I'd like two)
1 x Survery


NZ rejected that idea in the early 80's due to there lack of flexbility (i.e. Disaster relief etc). Until NZ has an reasonable size surface fleet I'm don't think any government could justify buying Submarines.

Army


Actually its more like 20

The army's got a lot of good equipment, just not enough, so I'd be looking to increase as a key area of focus

• Javelin (By international standards were very light on Anti Tank)
• Artillery (Say to 155mm - 3 regular and 2 reserve 6 gun battery)
• Mistral

In addition I'd be looking to stand up a Regular Force Group trained and equiped to operate off the MRV.

AirForce
A lot of upgrades and modernisation going on at the moment that will see a more capable airforce is some ways. However I would

• Follow the Quigley report and reduce to number of MB339 to about 9-12 and acqurie around 18 second hand combat aircraft. The Combat aircraft provide a deployable force, while the MB339 provide a low level capability.
• Upgrade the ASW processors on the P3
• Acquire a moderate number of ASM
• Increase the number of LUH currently been tendered for to ensure a light attack heli capability

The NZDF has much of what it needs but for NZ's own security and to ensure it can continue to operate effectively in the region it needs an expensive tweak.

I think you have made some excellent points in this post Lucasnz. What you propose would provide modest but sensible improvements to the army and would restore the air force to something like its strength a decade ago.

Your proposals for the navy have merit. You are probably right re the submarines. The addition of three corvettes would certainly provide teeth to the navy's firepower but my personal preference would be for at least one and preferably two frigates as I believe they could contribute more to power projection. NZ has operated 4 frigates in the past and I can't see why it could not do so in the future, especially given the fact that personnel requirements on modern frigates are much lower than they were in the past.

Cheers

 

[Waylander]

If NZ would really go for subs I think collins (Or subs of similar size) are not the way to go. Smaller subs (like produced by several european yards) would help with the problem of manning and procuring these subs due to a smaller crew and smaller price.

They would not be that blue water capable like the collins but should be able to operate within a significant range from Australian bases and are for sure a big factor for a possible defense of NZ.

 

[Lucasnz]

I think you have made some excellent points in this post Lucasnz. What you propose would provide modest but sensible improvements to the army and would restore the air force to something like its strength a decade ago.

Your proposals for the navy have merit. You are probably right re the submarines. The addition of three corvettes would certainly provide teeth to the navy's firepower but my personal preference would be for at least one and preferably two frigates as I believe they could contribute more to power projection. NZ has operated 4 frigates in the past and I can't see why it could not do so in the future, especially given the fact that personnel requirements on modern frigates are much lower than they were in the past.

Cheers

New Zealand's focus on frigates is historical and fails to reflect changes in sensors and weapons. For example the Anti Air capability on the Leanders (even updated with improved Fire Control, CWIS & Sensors like Canterbury) is more than surpassed by ships like the German K130, equipped with RAM. NZ could acheive today with a corvette outfitted ship (Size being determined by sea keeping & endurance) what it use to acheive with Frigates. I think frigates have their place in the RNZN (As command and area survellience vessels) but NZ needs to way cost, against numbers and right now we don't have the numbers, even with Project Protector, to deal with our own security issues and that of the wider region.

 

[NZLAV]

If there was a budget increase to 2.5-3% and a 3 year $10 billion equipment package (say in about 2020)I would like to attain:

Army

100 Tracked IFV - 25mm cannon
50 Wheeled AFV
320 IMV (to replace LOV)

16 155mm guns
14 SP 155mm
60 MRAAW
16 Medium range AA weapon systems

Navy
4 Frigates
2 160m MRV
2 Replenish/Tankers
4 OPV - 76mm
6 IPV - 25mm
2 MCM
1 Hydrographic

Air Force
34 + possible 36 second hand fighters
22 Light fighters/trainers
8 Medium/heavy Transport
6 Maritime patrol
16 medium utility helicopters
12 LUH - armed
16 light attack (simialr to super tucano)

This is not a huge list. Its just adding on to numbers and adding several major capibilites.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I think the submarines are a bit of a pipe dream. I think any major upgrade of NZ defences are (inc patrol boats). But lets stay positive. Small nations like singapore operate submarines, I don't think NZ is not able to.

Smaller submarines, would they be useful? If deployed from NZ could the atleast make it up to the northern tip of Australia?

Collins has one of the smallest crews on the planet. Buying one of the other subs would not assist in that regard.

Procurement cost wise, I think Australia might come half way if two additional submarines were avalible in the region. The next generation of subs may be more affordable, after the lessons learn from the origional collins program. They are not AIP, they are not nuclear, they would be based on existing collins systems. Canada would most likely be interested in buying 3-6 of them herself (Victoria class will be well old by 2020 after the OZ subs are built) so you are looking at a much more affordable project. Infact NZ having one or two may resolve fears that Canada may have about operating Australian built subs.

Still if NZ could put together a submarine crew that would be impressive in itself. I think a submarine would be the most powerful upgrade NZ could aquire and assert itself as a regional power and not just a police force. But the fact a submarine is a machine of war not a tool for distaster relief places it in the unlikely basket. But it can operate independant of other vessels in a war (unlike a ANZAC frigate or corvettes).

The potential of a next gen collins with Harpoon, Tomahawk, Mod 7's, SAS deployment would be a huge boost to NZ's capabilities.

 

[old faithful]

Add an FFG
4 more NH90,s
Raise a Marine comando unit.(1xHQ coy. 1x Support coy,2 x CDO coy)
Alternatley,increase the NZ SAS by at least another SQN.
Major upgrade of P3K
Amphib APC purchace x@20 veh (NZLAV can not swim)

I think this would increase the Kiwi,s ability to add to an ANZAC task force,and other international campaigns. A sub force would be great,but that would be stretching it i think. I also believe that the above would be achievable in a short time frame.

 

[Todjaeger]

New Zealand's focus on frigates is historical and fails to reflect changes in sensors and weapons. For example the Anti Air capability on the Leanders (even updated with improved Fire Control, CWIS & Sensors like Canterbury) is more than surpassed by ships like the German K130, equipped with RAM. NZ could acheive today with a corvette outfitted ship (Size being determined by sea keeping & endurance) what it use to acheive with Frigates. I think frigates have their place in the RNZN (As command and area survellience vessels) but NZ needs to way cost, against numbers and right now we don't have the numbers, even with Project Protector, to deal with our own security issues and that of the wider region.

Wow this thread sounds familiar... Moving along though...

I would like to see the NZDF arranged as follows

RNZN
3 upgraded Anzac frigates (3rd MEKO 200 hull built in Europe kitted in Aus/NZ)
OR
2 upgraded Anzacs plus
2-4 K130-type corvettes, though with Mk 48 or 54 VLS for ESSM

2 Upgunned OPV (57mm should suffice with mini-Typhoons)
1 JSS-style AOR/LOLO vessel
4 upgunned IPV (25mm)
2+ MCM/patrol/training vessels w/25mm+ gun and SAM (mistral?)
1 MRV (HMNZS Canterbury) with mini-typhoons
formation of an SBS unit or combat dive team

For the RNZN, I'm not sure whether another frigate or a few corvettes are better. Having more corvettes would allow greater potential striking power around NZ, but I'm not sure that they would be able to match the Anzacs in terms of seakeeping and range. For the OPV, I don't see real value in mounting a 76mm since they wouldn't be used as warships. However, something with greater range and more effective against civilian shipping for emergencies would be sensible, especially if there isn't room in the hangar to carry munitions for the Seasprite. The rest more or less follows as expected additions or upgrades.

RNZAF
Reactivation of the MB-339 for pilot training, as well as army & navy training
P-3K upgrade of ASW equipment and addition of standoff AShM
Upgrade of Seasprite for ASW role
OR
NFH-90 version for use aboard the Anzacs
Addition of Q300 sized MPA/training aircraft
AAR role for Boeing 757 (or replacement with A330 MRTT like the RAAF)
C-130H replaced/augmented with KC-130J

Getting into a slightly unrealistic area...
JAS39 Gripen (with upgraded engine) and/or
F-35 JSF once it starts being fielded

Army
Addition of an IMV to forces
Addition and/or replacement of NZLAV with an actual IFV
tracked 120mm AMOS
radar queued Mistral
additional Javelin
replace 105mm howitzers with 155mm SP with advanced/guided munitions
armoured engineering equipment
expansion of NZSAS

-Cheers

 

[stray_kiwi]

If there was a budget increase to 2.5-3% and a 3 year $10 billion equipment package (say in about 2020)I would like to attain:

Air Force
34 + possible 36 second hand fighters
22 Light fighters/trainers
8 Medium/heavy Transport
6 Maritime patrol
16 medium utility helicopters
12 LUH - armed
16 light attack (simialr to super tucano)

This is not a huge list. Its just adding on to numbers and adding several major capibilites.

IMHO thats too many fighters. When you think about peacetime deployments thats an awful lot of aircraft sitting on the ground. I personally prefer Lucasnz's scenario of a similarly sized air combat force to what NZ enjoyed prior to 2001. While we could use the Macchi's as a low cost option I favour buying Hawks from the Australians and utilising them as both a lead-in trainer so our pilots are able to fly the F/A-18s or JSF's of the RAAF if needed, but also with the option of mounting air to surface munitions for secondary ground attack/maritime strike roles.

 

[NZLAV]

Just going off topic a little bit, a change I would like to see is the name of the New Zealand elite forces. They are currently called the SAS, which is used by many nations. I would prefer the name Elite Warriors because it relates more to New Zealands history. Also I would like to see an Honorary Protective guard established (similar to Croatias, 200 personal) that will be troops loyal to the government.

 

[Waylander]

Aren't all the troops loyal to the governement?
I would think that NZ is one of the last countries needing a sort of republican guard within its armed forces.

Elite Warriors sounds a little bit like out of an B-Action Movie.

 

[KH-12]

Aren't all the troops loyal to the governement?
I would think that NZ is one of the last countries needing a sort of republican guard within its armed forces.

Elite Warriors sounds a little bit like out of an B-Action Movie.

Or an animated Action Toy

Seriously why does the NZ government need an elite unit to protect it, Helen's glare would scare off most potential foes !

 

[merocaine]

I would prefer the name Elite Warriors because it relates more to New Zealands history. Also I would like to see an Honorary Protective guard established (similar to Croatias, 200 personal) that will be troops loyal to the government.

Defend the Sheep! Defend the Sheep! We must defend the Sheep!....:crazy

sorry could'ent resist, what are you talking about? all soldiers are loyal to the serving goverment, you live in a democracy not a dictatorship.