NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

Navantia have a smaller version of the Juan Carlos/Canberra Class LHD, IIRC, around the 180-190 mark, 15-17,000 ? No ski jump and still has the well dock. Im sure Spain would do a very good deal on that ? and would also have supply chain commonality with the RAN LHD's.

Navantia are touting a LHD / LHA, LPD / LSD or an LPA /LKA13,000 tonne in the Athlas Family. If we went down the LHD track there would be commonality with the RAN and from what I read it also can do AOR. So since Endeavour would be the first replacement then this could be well worth looking at. When Canterbury is due to be replaced then a second vessel would be ordered. We would then have two vessels with commonality and the associated benefits with the RAN operating similar vessels. It is half the size again of the Canterbury but in the long run I think that if two 13,000 Navantia LHDs were bought for the RNZN then in the long term it would be money well spent giving NZDF very good capability for the JATF.

This is the Navantia paper on its amphibious warfare ships. 85 pages but a good read. http://infodefensa.com/wp-content/uploads/JCI_en_v2.pdf

 

[aussienscale]

Navantia are touting a LHD / LHA, LPD / LSD or an LPA /LKA13,000 tonne in the Athlas Family. If we went down the LHD track there would be commonality with the RAN and from what I read it also can do AOR. So since Endeavour would be the first replacement then this could be well worth looking at. When Canterbury is due to be replaced then a second vessel would be ordered. We would then have two vessels with commonality and the associated benefits with the RAN operating similar vessels. It is half the size again of the Canterbury but in the long run I think that if two 13,000 Navantia LHDs were bought for the RNZN then in the long term it would be money well spent giving NZDF very good capability for the JATF.

This is the Navantia paper on its amphibious warfare ships. 85 pages but a good read. http://infodefensa.com/wp-content/uploads/JCI_en_v2.pdf

Do recall seeing that late last year, good find, nice to have a read through that again, definately some good options in there, even if to buy plans and have one of the South Korean yards build ? Always have a little giggle to myself in this presentation where they clearly state that the Athlas 26000 on which the Juan Carlos/Canberra Class are based on also has a version without the ski jump pretty funny when one of the biggest defences on why it has the ski jump on the Canberra class is that it had to be there for the design and structual integrity of the ship, and that it was cheaper to leave it there than to take it off and re-design it ? They must not have know of the other options bugger hey

Cheers

 

[Lucasnz]

Hi all. I've been following the discussion about Canterbury etc while I've been on the road.

With regards to complement and Canterbury's replacement the highest you could go I think would be around 250, given you need to have at least another 1/3rd ashore to provide a degree of rotation. However a smaller complement for any Canterbury replacement is a must given the impact high attrition has on a navy the size of the RNZN.

With regards to Damage Control you would need a min of 8 personnel at each Damage Control Station (Section I/C, Comms, 3 for fighting and 3 as flooding or replacement Fire Team - and personally I find that a bit thin). The other issue is the larger the ship the more teams you need, and this ignores the issue of having a mobile repair team in order to repair power supply etc.

While automation is a international trend I read something recently that the USN is finding that LCS crews are are working long hours. Crew size does impact on endurance and the ability to remain on station, not to mention the impact on harbour duty watches / shore leave even away from ones home port. I would think that for a major combatant 125 (about what a Type 26 is proposed) would be the min size you could go, given the increasing size etc. I note from the Navy Today the ANZAC's need a min of 64 people to maintain 4 night time duty watch teams, and thats in Auckland. Away its likley to be higher. Someone more upto date with ANZAC's might like to discuss that one. I don't agree about a 4 person duty watch alongside Auckland, though those living onboard could probably assist in an emergency.

 

[ngatimozart]

Something different but something I think that impacts upon the thinking of NZDF in Afghan. This is an article that first appears in Defence Talk yesterday How the Taliban mastered the operational art of modern war | Defense & Security News at DefenceTalk in an abbreviated form with the full article in The American Conservative Unfriendly Fire | The American Conservative

I am not a student of tactical and strategic doctrine but I do have a litte understanding of what the article says. I have for a while seen the similarities between the Vietnam War and Afganistan and to a lessor degree Iraq. I would argue that the Taleban have studied the Vietnam war (they'd be silly not too) and realised that they cannot meet ISAF head on. They have learnt from their war against the Soviets (as part of the Mujihaddein) and they handed them a humiliating military and political defeat. It is their intention to do the same to the ISAF and they might just possibly do that. All they have to do is wait them out and in the mean time sow discord and distrust between the Afghan Military and ISAF.

 

[STURM]

I would argue that the Taleban have studied the Vietnam war (they'd be silly not too) and realised that they cannot meet ISAF head on. They have learnt from their war against the Soviets (as part of the Mujihaddein) and they handed them a humiliating military and political defeat. It is their intention to do the same to the ISAF and they might just possibly do that. All they have to do is wait them out and in the mean time sow discord and distrust between the Afghan Military and ISAF.

I think most counter insurgency campaigns, whether fought in Malaya, Rhodesia or Afghanistan share similiar characteristics. Whilst many of the elder Talibs would have fought against the Soviets under people like Hetmatyer and Haqqani, most of the rank and file were probably to young too have participated against the Soviets. Though many of the tactics being used against ISAF were also used against the Soviets theTalibs had to learn the way, to evolve their tactics to cope with the advantages ISAF has that the Soviets did not. They also have made changes in others areas such as being more media savy - often releasing press statements on attacks or claiming reponsibility way before ISAF has issued anything. And they have adopted a 'friendlier' face and adopted policies that are less harsh than the ones imposed when they ruled the country, to retain local support. They also realise that many who support them may not neccessarily agree with their interpretation of their religon but do so simply because they want to see and end to the presence of foreign troops.

 

[htbrst]

Since its so quiet in here how about an article to gnash your teeth over. The reporter is so rabid in this poorly written article that he even spells 'Army' incorrectly at one point.Nothing like a good beat-up of the defence force as space filler on a slow news day .:flame.

No predators for NZ soldiers - national | Stuff.co.nz

No predators for NZ soldiers

New Zealand's military is not about to get killer drones despite including a couple of them in an illustration in a submission to Parliament.

Instead the military is likely to go no further than a handheld unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) capable of taking very good video and transmitting it live.

The NZDF recently made submissions to Parliament's foreign affairs and defence select committee and included a stylised drawing of where they saw themselves in the decade ahead.

Leading the charge over the Pacific Ocean were two Predator drones which cost around US$4 million ($5 million) a piece and can be armed with missiles.

On Friday, for example, US drones killed 12 militants in Pakistan. US President Barrack Obama is known to personally confirm all drone kill orders.

The NZDF, asked to explain the illustration, said they are still working out where drones "might fit in the mix of technology available.

"It seems certain that UAV will be considered; in particular as we decide on how best to deliver the maritime surveillance needs of New Zealand into the future."

The navy has looked at how to use them.

The armed is trialling Kahu (hawk).

A hand launched drone provides video and still imagery to forces.

Army News last year reported that Kahu had become invaluable for helping protect soldiers on the ground as well as gaining intelligence in the battle area.

They've flown it regularly in the brutal weather of the Waiouru Training Area although add that persistent rain, low cloud and winds of over 60km/hr "still represent inoperable conditions".

The army has also developed a bungee launch system for Kahu so that it can get off the ground in low wind. They are also looking at cameras which have a 360 degree viewing capability.

The introduction of persistent medium sized UAV's could hold so many advantages for a small force like the NZDF, particularly in the maritime domain and overwatch of operations similar to Timor etc.

So by 2035 I certainly hope we have at least considered operating a few !

 

[recce.k1]

Another Michael Field concoction mixing dissimilar facts, opinions and his biases. I'm just amazed Fairfax continue to pay him for such lazy repeating yet again when it comes to Defence.

Of course there won't be Predators soon, NZ doesn't have the necessary infrastucture in place (nor no doubt the access to such restricted infrastructure, let alone the budget).

Thankfully at least Mr Field let's his subjects speak, in which, contrary to the tone of the article, advises what we all know which is the NZDF is interested in and is considering UAV technology especially for the maritime survellance domain, for its future force. But first steps first eg planning for C4ISR and such investment over coming years.

Here's the rudimentary report that Mr Field all but ignored, except for that pretty picture which allowed him the basis of an article. Ka-ching Fairfax! :dance


http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyr...VI_00DBSCH_EST_11306_1_A253023_Estimatesf.pdf

 

[Lucasnz]

NZDF Casualties in Afghanistan

The NZDF is reporting 2 dead and 6 injured in a fight in Afghanistan (I wonder if a LAV took a hit). No details have been released as of yet.

My condolences to the families of the personnel involved.

 

[steve33]

The NZDF is reporting 2 dead and 6 injured in a fight in Afghanistan (I wonder if a LAV took a hit). No details have been released as of yet.

My condolences to the families of the personnel involved.

Press confernece at 12.00pm.

We certainly got hit hard i hope our governemnt has the balls to order our military to take offensive action against the people who did this follow them into the neighbouring province and kill them.

 

[ngatimozart]

Press confernece at 12.00pm.

We certainly got hit hard i hope our governemnt has the balls to order our military to take offensive action against the people who did this follow them into the neighbouring province and kill them.

I would suspect utu will happen although NZG will not call it that. Lt Tim O'Donnells killers were found & dealt with according to various media. My codolence to the whanau friends and comrades in arms. Best wishes for the wounded and their whanau.

 

[steve33]

The NZDF is reporting 2 dead and 6 injured in a fight in Afghanistan (I wonder if a LAV took a hit). No details have been released as of yet.

My condolences to the families of the personnel involved.

They were caught in an ambush the Lav were targetted with RPG and the troops on the groups machine gun and rifle fire.

The casulties were suffered in a time frame of 2-3 minutes, by the sound of things most of them hit in the first volley of fire.

Classic ambush what a bitch i hope we ramp things up and hunt these guys down before we leave Afganistan.

 

[Cadredave]

They were caught in an ambush the Lav were targetted with RPG and the troops on the groups machine gun and rifle fire.

The casulties were suffered in a time frame of 2-3 minutes, by the sound of things most of them hit in the first volley of fire.

Classic ambush what a bitch i hope we ramp things up and hunt these guys down before we leave Afganistan.

Woahh,
Nothing was said about LAV being hit, please dont jump to conclusions Lav are not the only vehicles in the North East, it could of been M11151 Frag 7 Humvees and judging by the discription of what the CDF said my money is on M11151 based patrol, RPG's wont do that amount of damage to a LAV.

CD

 

[steve33]

Woahh,
Nothing was said about LAV being hit, please dont jump to conclusions Lav are not the only vehicles in the North East, it could of been M11151 Frag 7 Humvees and judging by the discription of what the CDF said my money is on M11151 based patrol, RPG's wont do that amount of damage to a LAV.

CD

Sorry to jump to conclusion your right it could have been up armoured Humvee.

They were moving to secure the highground when they were fired on one was in an armoured vehicle and was killed by an RPG and the other by small arms fire and 17 Insurgents were seen leaving the area carrying their dead and wounded.

 

[Shonz]

Offensive subject title deleted from banned members post

I would suspect utu will happen although NZG will not call it that. Lt Tim O'Donnells killers were found & dealt with according to various media. My codolence to the whanau friends and comrades in arms. Best wishes for the wounded and their whanau.

Im suprised you are your on God, and you can even cry! Judge and judge, but please dont cry!

 

[Tee_Centre_10]

Im suprised you are your on God, and you can even cry! Judge and judge, but please dont cry!

Why did you bother registering on a defence forum just to abuse others?

 

[steve33]

Im suprised you are your on God, and you can even cry! Judge and judge, but please dont cry!

Whats your deal muppet.?

 

[gf0012-aust]

my condolences.

apols for tardy reply but have been unable to respond prior

 

[exported_kiwi]

Im suprised you are your on God, and you can even cry! Judge and judge, but please dont cry!

WTF are you on about? Some of our brave boys got killed and one of our own people was sending his condolences, albeit here, to the families and other loved ones of those who were killed and wounded. Might be best you decide to join the human race before judging others!

Mods, sorry, but as a Kiwi, I had to say something.

 

[ngatimozart]

WTF are you on about? Some of our brave boys got killed and one of our own people was sending his condolences, albeit here, to the families and other loved ones of those who were killed and wounded. Might be best you decide to join the human race before judging others!

Mods, sorry, but as a Kiwi, I had to say something.

Thanks mate hadn't noticed the nutters post but I see that it has joined the list of those who manage to get banned on their first post. Methinks that list is getting longer.

 

[ngatimozart]

I have been pondering the viability of NZ purchasing a JORN system off Australia and operating it here. I read somewhere that the cost for Australia was around AU$1 billion, but how accurate that is I don't know because there is very little about JORN in the public domain. However I think as a long term investment it would pay for itself. Given that JORN is has all weather detection of air and surface targets out to an arc of 3000km ( Defence Materiel Organisation ) such a setup in NZ would be of material benefit in that for maritime patrolling we would know where the targets were and plan the patrols with that data thereby reducing the amount of time searching for targets.