Next Generation RN surface warship

[Dr Phobus]

I was looking for opinions on the RN's next surface warships following the daring class. Will it be multi-hulled, mono hull, will it be large like the DDX, or smaller than the daring class. Will is be a multi-purpose design or more specalized ? will there be one at all :unknown

 

[PhillTaj]

Personally, I think it will be either by the "Global Corvette" design or a version of the Daring.

Hey Doc, have you seen the FC65 concept put out by those lovely designers at DML? looks like a nice boat! 6600 tons, 16 TLAM's, 155mm Gun. Personally, I prefer this design for the RN, but of course, we all know what direction the RN is taking. ....*cough*..Canada *..cough*..

 

[Dr Phobus]

LOL how can i disagree with you... I think the golbal corvette idea is something will should purchase along with a true replacment for the type 23. But who am i kidding right !

Anything the RN builds will look rather weak comparied to DDX/CGX. ( or anyone else for that matter)

No, there will be a true type 23 replacement due to the need to retain ship building industry, so there will be a major surface combatent. I feel it will be about 7000t plus. Yes I have seen thatr design, you know i am a fan of the italian verison of the FREMM, they have a better sensors and weapons over the french verison.

 

[PhillTaj]

LOL how can i disagree with you... I think the golbal corvette idea is something will should purchase along with a true replacment for the type 23. But who am i kidding right !

Anything the RN builds will look rather weak comparied to DDX/CGX. ( or anyone else for that matter)

No, there will be a true type 23 replacement due to the need to retain ship building industry, so there will be a major surface combatent. I feel it will be about 7000t plus. Yes I have seen thatr design, you know i am a fan of the italian verison of the FREMM, they have a better sensors and weapons over the french verison.

The Global corvette is interesting, and your right, if it is puchased it will have to be bought in conjunction with a 6000 ton+ class.

I used to think that the RN would buy into the DDX program..but like all US programs, the costs have exploded...upwards of course.

FREMM would be a good option also. Its a good design, and it would appease the eurobunch in Britain.

Will the Italian version carry the SCALP NAVAL? From what I've been reading, only the French have committed to it?

 

[Dr Phobus]

The Global corvette is interesting, and your right, if it is puchased it will have to be bought in conjunction with a 6000 ton+ class.

I used to think that the RN would buy into the DDX program..but like all US programs, the costs have exploded...upwards of course.

FREMM would be a good option also. Its a good design, and it would appease the eurobunch in Britain.

Will the Italian version carry the SCALP NAVAL? From what I've been reading, only the French have committed to it?

Italain FREEM, will have Midas, 76mm Dardo (CIWS), aster 15, with the same radar as in there horizon class warships, MTU-90, 1-2 MH-90, 127mm gun with volcano rounds, i am not sure about navel scalp but there airforce did buy the air launched verison for tornado/eurofigther and also, FREMM will have the correct VLS systems to launch navel scalp so, you really can take a good guess they will do so, more so since even the dutch and spainsh navy purchaseed tomohawk IV for their respects VLS equiped warships.

 

[PhillTaj]

Italain FREEM, will have Midas, 76mm Dardo (CIWS), aster 15, with the same radar as in there horizon class warships, MTU-90, 1-2 MH-90, 127mm gun with volcano rounds, i am not sure about navel scalp but there airforce did buy the air launched verison for tornado/eurofigther and also, FREMM will have the correct VLS systems to launch navel scalp so, you really can take a good guess they will do so, more so since even the dutch and spainsh navy purchaseed tomohawk IV for their respects VLS equiped warships.

A better question is, will Britain adopt the SCALP NAVAL? I understand that such a suggestion is gaining steam in the UK.

 

[Dr Phobus]

Indeed, however, the problem here is:

1-UK would have to pay for the tomahawk IV to be capable to be launched from A-90 VLS,

2-The sea scalp is not as capable as the tomahawk, shorter range, smaller warhead and is more costly per unit.

3-The UK already will be using the Tomahawk, fired from TT by the UK's SSN's fleet

either way the UK will have to "pay" a dirty word these days, hwever, like you say, we need ship borne crusier missles. Going european is not a bad idea, and of course MBDA will in time develop the capabilities of the scalp missle, but off the bat, your looking at only 3 confirmed coustmers, more in time, like singapore and Saudi navy (all aster users)..

 

[PhillTaj]

Indeed, however, the problem here is:

1-UK would have to pay for the tomahawk IV to be capable to be launched from A-90 VLS,

2-The sea scalp is not as capable as the tomahawk, shorter range, smaller warhead and is more costly per unit.

3-The UK already will be using the Tomahawk, fired from TT by the UK's SSN's fleet

either way the UK will have to "pay" a dirty word these days, hwever, like you say, we need ship borne crusier missles. Going european is not a bad idea, and of course MBDA will in time develop the capabilities of the scalp missle, but off the bat, your looking at only 3 confirmed coustmers, more in time, like singapore and Saudi navy (all aster users)..

The SCALP N is supposed to have a 1200 km range if im not mistaken. Saudi Arabia and Singapore canot acquire it. Unless they are developing a 300 km version for export to second tier countries.

I would think that the RN will continue to use the Tomahawk. The missile is battle proven, capable, and bloody cheap.

 

[Dr Phobus]

I agree, the UK will keep Tomahawk IV and proabably pay for the intergration. With the MBDA Navel scalp to many costs and too many unknowns. I think you will find its range is singificantly less than Tomahawk IV.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I think that the RN force structure will revolve around further multi-mission Type 45 hulls capable of anti air and strategic missile launch and lighter hulls based similar to the USN LCS concept that will be capable of operating in the littoral environments that have come to the fore in the war on terrorism and be capable of a wide range of mission including, anti piracy, sub surface/surface warfare and special operations.

 

[Dr Phobus]

I will be surprized if we go for a LCS type design. The focuse will be on a 6000t plus design, it will be truely multi-role in nature, remember this next warships will be the bulk of the UK surface combat fleet with a possbile 16 being ordered, since only 8 T-45's have been ordered (a true crime).

LCS is the pursuit of the USN with the money to spare, neither French or Italain navies are considering such a design. Nor will the RN, this is not to say will will not build a few policing vessels, but they may not be more that enlarge corvettes with a 30mm gun and a lynx helo.
:

 

[Whiskyjack]

I will be surprized if we go for a LCS type design. The focuse will be on a 6000t plus design, it will be truely multi-role in nature, remember this next warships will be the bulk of the UK surface combat fleet with a possbile 16 being ordered, since only 8 T-45's have been ordered (a true crime).

LCS is the pursuit of the USN with the money to spare, neither French or Italain navies are considering such a design. Nor will the RN, this is not to say will will not build a few policing vessels, but they may not be more that enlarge corvettes with a 30mm gun and a lynx helo.
:

I feel that the Type 45 will be used as the multi-role platform with another 4-8 ordered. I don't think that the RN will go for the USN LCS, but will evolve their own hull.

The reason for this is that I feel the RN will need more hulls in the water and there will be a need for a multi-role ship of the 3000-4000 ton class that can be rapidly deployed for less sophisticated roles such as anti-piracy, anti-terrorism, escort, UN peacekeeping etc etc.

This does not mean that they will not be sophisticated but they will not need (a great number) TLCMs or ABMD for these roles. They will need to carry Royal Marines or Special Forces and be capable of anti submarine anti surface warfare in a littoral environment.

They will be needed everywhere and therefore 16+ hulls will be needed. Basic Crew will be 40 odd with different numbers added for different missions.

The problem I see with the RN structure at the moment is that they do not have a DDG like the USN Burkes that are truly multi-roles at the top end of the spectrum. Instead they want separate and Anti-air and Land Attack hulls. I say Combine both into the Type 45 hull and go for a multi mission ‘Frigate/Corvette’ To cover the requirements.

 

[aaaditya]

I will be surprized if we go for a LCS type design. The focuse will be on a 6000t plus design, it will be truely multi-role in nature, remember this next warships will be the bulk of the UK surface combat fleet with a possbile 16 being ordered, since only 8 T-45's have been ordered (a true crime).

LCS is the pursuit of the USN with the money to spare, neither French or Italain navies are considering such a design. Nor will the RN, this is not to say will will not build a few policing vessels, but they may not be more that enlarge corvettes with a 30mm gun and a lynx helo.
:

i remember reading somewhere that the type45 darings were based on the horizon project and that uk was also participant in the project along with france and italy.
i cant understand why uk backed out of it,iam sure it would have been cheaper to jointly develop them with france and italy.

also can someone tell me what is the difference between the type45 daring and the horizon class of deigns?

 

[Dr Phobus]

The UK back out because on concerns about time frame and more importantly disagreements over the electronics fit. The type 45 has the worlds most advanced radar, a duel faced AESA. The italian and french warships have a less advanced radar fit. Moreover, it appears the french cut back there number. The UK, fearing dealy's and even a cancellation of the program, they surged forward with the type 45. Remeber the type 42's are a rather dated design.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Just a thought, but where are the major threat environments that the RN will be operating in the future?

I know that this question is in some ways a stupid one because you can never guess the next war, especially over 10-20 years. But I feel comfortable that Europe is not likely to see any major conflict (maybe Russia, as a failed state, but I do not see that as likely)

The eastern Med around Israel is another potential. The Persian Gulf is also a candidate.

Would the RN be a major contributor to the North Western Pacific? I can see a few ships deployed but nothing like a major Task Force.

I can see western navies going back to the 19th and early 20th centuries where the coasts of Africa, Asia and South America had to be policed. Criminals, Pirates and Terrorists, where a Type 45, DDG 51 etc are less value than a shallow draft, fast moving multi role ships (I know this sounds like me justifying me earlier posts and that is true!). Look at it this way since the Second World War the focus has been on countering major, modern surface and sub surface combatants, and while this is still the case, it is not to the same extent as it was. Whereas the anti piracy/drug/terrorist has been neglected to a certain extent. The RNs history as the navy of an empire was mostly doing these things.

just a few thoughts.

 

[Dr Phobus]

Interesting points on policing roles, hence to like corvette designs. Protecting the north atlantic will still be a stragetic role for the RN, also, patrolling the med and persian gulf. I agree, not disernable threat, but of course that does not mean our allies are so far away from danger. The american's, australia, will have the exspanding chinese navy to contend with. Thus, look for a 2 tier RN with a 24 unit war fleet, these ships will need large, capable and have long range. Pax Brittianica

:nutkick

 

[Whiskyjack]

Interesting points on policing roles, hence to like corvette designs. Protecting the north atlantic will still be a stragetic role for the RN, also, patrolling the med and persian gulf. I agree, not disernable threat, but of course that does not mean our allies are so far away from danger. The american's, australia, will have the exspanding chinese navy to contend with. Thus, look for a 2 tier RN with a 24 unit war fleet, these ships will need large, capable and have long range. Pax Brittianica

:nutkick

Yes I agree that is what they need. The problem I see is that the RN will end up with 16-20 tier 1 ships and to pay for that will have nothing else! One Type 45 with Tomahawk and Aster (Astor?) is worth any three Frigate/Destroyer currently in RN service in terms of combat power.

The reason I go back to an LCS type ship is the type of mission it is to conduct will be of more 'day to day' relevance going forward.

16 Type 45 and 16-24 RN LCS hulls will give the RN a fire power and flexibility that it has not had in more than two decades!

I think we are looking at the same thing from different angles. I see your corvette as an LCS ship that can operate much like a multi role escort frigate, close inshore fully networked into the Type 45s, with the ability to be rapidly fitted out for different mission types (therefore keeping the basic ship price down) .

In my mind I see a trimaran that has shallow draft, but is capable of operating in heavy weather conditions found in the Atlantic, with a short range air defence and anti ship missile.

I know this is all speculation and I should no better but it is hard not to design force structures!

 

[Dr Phobus]

I think th e RN will not go for a modular LCS like warships, I forsee a real low end vessel, without a rapid modular ability, up-gradable over time yes, modualr no. Like you say we see differences in our respective opinions. The trimarage (sp?) concept, I would be surprized if it turns into a real warship. Nor do i see a development of T-45, its will be a whole new warships.

The trend for these policing vessels seem to be enlarged OPV with help capability.

 

[Matt]

There is nothing i like better than speculating on RN Force structures!!

The fact is that we have a govt which is not propared to spend anything like the amount it should on our armed forces.

One ship can only be in one place at one time. The Royal Navy needs more frigates and destroyers not less.

Global piracy is on the increse, the threat of maritine terrorist attack is real, and we have a duty to provide adique defence of british overseas territories, all but one of which are islands.

The UK can only go two ways.

1) Be a strong global power, who stands up for itself and others in need.

2) Hide away in the corner and let others do it all.

I go with number 1. Which means you HAVE TO spend more on our armed forces

 

[mark22w]

As we have yet to see an order for hulls 7 and 8 and the additional two PAAMS systems, I can see the T45’s being capped at six. It was interesting to note the 1SL on leaving post reiterate the need for eight..! I suggest concern and numbers only seem to decline for the RN of late.

If the T45’s were capped at six and with their ‘fitted for but not with’ capabilities how likely is it the 23/22 replacements will take on the land attack role – and with the larger size of likely replacements, with fewer hulls. Let’s speculate for a moment on 12 ‘land attack’ replacements providing a very capable force of 18 first class Destroyers.

Surely there’s then room for an upgraded OPV in reasonable numbers to take on the policing roles etc in the Caribbean and South Atlantic? But then again didn’t the Type 23 start off as a cheap and cheerful platform for a towed-array…