New Zealand awards contract for $500 Million Dollar Project "Protector".

EnigmaNZ

New Member
NZ needs 4 Frigates, They don't all need to be uber models, pulling over a frieghter to check it's cargo can be done by a corvette. The OPV is designed for operation in high sea states, so global ops shouldn't be a problem when required to back up the frigates.

In litteral warfare we have been involved in, the biggest threat has been suicide speedboats, mines, and mini subs.

Added sensors
Harbour rated sonar such as CMAS-36/39 MULTIPURPOSE HULL MOUNTED SONAR
http://www.c-techltd.com/omni.htm

The Bofor 57mm Mk3 weighs 6000 kg with 1000 rounds but minus sensors, the same weight as the Phalanx system, so that 12 added tons between them, plus basic sensors for the Bofor. I picked the Bofor for it's light weight and small foot print, there appears to be no room on the foredeck for anything bigger.

Th Phalanx mounted in place of the current MSI 25mm, gives a reasonable coverage to the sides with it's placement away from the superstructure, it is basically a stand alone system, and it can deal with aircraft, missile and speed boat threats. Mounted low to keep weight low.

The 2 MSI combined 25mm Bushmaster cannon and Mistral missile system is a lightwieght minimal intrusion system for protection from high speed suicide threats whether speedboat or civilian light plane/helo. Mounted to cover Phalanx blind spot at forward edge of flightdeck port and starboard, not to intrude on flight ops.

A surface to surface missile system, could be 2 x twin Pengrin mounted at the rear, range to horizon, protection from FAC and corvettes owned by many 3rd world countries. Remove 1 large RHI, mount other 90 degrees to current position, missiles replace missing seaboat. Relatively lightweigh system.

Torpedo, 2 x twin tube shipborne sets, many 3rd world countries have submarines, mostly obsolent, but still deady if you have no way to counter them. Knowing you can will encourage the owners to keep their distance. Mounted under flightdeck to port and starboard.

Airborne assett being the current Kamen Supersprite of which one can be carried.

The OPV is a 1800 ton vessel, the total added weight shouldn't be more than about 25 tons, and it is all mounted relatively low, at deck level, with Phalanx a deck above, and lightweight basic sensors being the only additional system to be mounted high on the ship.

Yes it will cost, the Anzac upgrade will cost substantially more, the C130, the Orion upgrades are all costing hundreds of millions each, just one of those costs you need to accept. Both major opposition parties are promising big defence budget increases, and are likely to be in government by the year end, so we will see. We are not broke, NZ has run big surpluses for years, it's just that the Labour government prefers to put the surplus to other uses, and there has been much controversy lately over poor quality spending on it's pet areas, largely on alternative groups (you have more likelyhood of getting funding if you put maori, lesbian, gay, alternative to family in the proposal)

We have few large maritine platforms, those we have need to be truely multirole, which is why I would add the systems to the MRV as well. Then we have 5 armed multirole platforms that can be mixed to the overseas operational requirement.

This is new class of frigate / MRV that combines the abilities of the MRV with those of a frigate to create a expeditionary frigate. Interesting concept. Our MRV could be a expeditionary corvette :)

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00218001
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
EnigmaNZ said:
Added sensors
Harbour rated sonar such as CMAS-36/39 MULTIPURPOSE HULL MOUNTED SONAR
http://www.c-techltd.com/omni.htm

The Bofor 57mm Mk3 weighs 6000 kg with 1000 rounds but minus sensors, the same weight as the Phalanx system, so that 12 added tons between them, plus basic sensors for the Bofor. I picked the Bofor for it's light weight and small foot print, there appears to be no room on the foredeck for anything bigger.

Th Phalanx mounted in place of the current MSI 25mm, gives a reasonable coverage to the sides with it's placement away from the superstructure, it is basically a stand alone system, and it can deal with aircraft, missile and speed boat threats. Mounted low to keep weight low.
It will still above the tranverse center of gravity which is a balance of the downward force of mass agains the upward force of buoyancy. Anything above the design CofG is top weight irrespective of the fact it may be below the deck line. The higher the mass is placed the greater the impact as the movment of the c of G is a simple mass to distance relationship. Anything on the main deck will be well above the C of G hence this mass needs to be compensated for.

In addition the mass of the mount and support systesm is only part of the issue (regardless of whether is deck intrusion or not). The structure that support these may add as much weigth than the system themselves, particualry where the upgrade is a retrofit as you cannot optimise the structure to minimise weight while still providing support without serious structural surgery. The presumed total of 25 tonnes for all the gear, support structure, fire controls systems and ancillaries would be optimisitic I feel.

Warships are no built with a hugh reserve of stabiltiy (theoretical GM) as this would make them too stiff and likley to whip in a seaway. As such the intended weight and any anticipated growth has to be built into the original design (the old space and weight issue which was certainly noted when upgrading the FFG7). Adding any top wieght upsets the mix and this must be compensated for.

This is new class of frigate / MRV that combines the abilities of the MRV with those of a frigate to create a expeditionary frigate. Interesting concept. Our MRV could be a expeditionary corvette
In respect of the MRV this is a merchant hull and has greater capcaity for grown, however, again any increase in mass above the C of G will reduce load capacity in the vehicle deck above the C of G. the diffecence in this case is that the vessel should have the ballast capcity to compensate. It would still cost a considerable sum to reconfigure the ships structure to support such weapons systems.

My point is these things are best considered at design stage. the OPV will hav elong legs and be a usefull long distance EEZ patrol vessel (the RAN could use an OPV for the souther oceans) but it will cost a motza to turn them into a corvetee.
 

Highwayman

New Member
I have just read that the max speed for the MRV is 19kts.
I don't know a lot about ships but this seems a little slow:confused: ?
If this ship can operate a full speed which I suspect is highly unlikely due to fuel consumption and differing weather/sea conditions it would average at 501 miles per day - not exactly rapid depolyment.
 

EnigmaNZ

New Member
Remember the Anzac frigates it will deploy with can only achieve 18 knots on their diesels, and the Endeavour can only achieve 14 knots, though it is usually sent ahead. If rapid deployment is needed, air transport will be used, Hercules and 757's for troops, chartered C-17's for heavy equipment, as we do for Iraq. If you look at speeds of the newer similar type vessels in other navies, they have a similar speed, the only ones with higher are the steam powered US vessels.

The problem is you need to increase power a lot to see any speed increase, eg, doubling the horsepower will severely decrease the range and increase running cost and will add about 4 knots, thats 23 knots. Deminishing returns.

The British Ocean class 18 kts, Albion class 17.5 kts, the US LHD(R) 20 kts, French Foudre class 21 kts, Ouragan class 17 kts, Spanish Galicia class 20 Kts, Hernan Cortes class 20 Kts, Dutch Johan de Witt class 19.5 Kts, Rotterdam class 20 Kts, Russian Ivan Rogov class 19 Kts, Ropucha-II class 18 Kts etc
 
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alexsa

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Highwayman said:
I have just read that the max speed for the MRV is 19kts.
I don't know a lot about ships but this seems a little slow:confused: ?
If this ship can operate a full speed which I suspect is highly unlikely due to fuel consumption and differing weather/sea conditions it would average at 501 miles per day - not exactly rapid depolyment.
The MRV is based on the MV Ben My Chree RO-PAX ferry. It rated maximum speed is 18 knots. Have a look at the ship technology web site.

http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/ben/

This is in the upper level of standard merchant vessel speeds. The NZ AOR probably has a slower speed than this. Generally speaking standard general cargo vessels, smaller geared container vessles and con bulkers will have speeds between 14 and 18 knots. Reefer vessels tend to be a bit faster (around 20 knots). Pure cellular container vessel are normally faster still (20 to 25 knots) while tankers tend to be slower (14 knots or less). Pushing beyong 17 or 18 knots tends to have a signficant impact on operating costs and unless the trade demands it (Reefers and liner trade pure container vessels) then the ships will not be designed for such speeds.
 

EnigmaNZ

New Member
For all the extra cost of having those 4 extra knots, more space taken up by engines and fuel, so enlarge the ship to carry the same payload, more cost, higher running costs, and if you had to deploy somewhere about 10 days steam away, the difference in saved time is about a day. Again the returns aren't there.

I'm just pleased we are getting something, after years of talk, and it is better than aussies first modern amp, the Tobruk hehe.
 

alexsa

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Staff member
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EnigmaNZ said:
For all the extra cost of having those 4 extra knots, more space taken up by engines and fuel, so enlarge the ship to carry the same payload, more cost, higher running costs, and if you had to deploy somewhere about 10 days steam away, the difference in saved time is about a day. Again the returns aren't there.

I'm just pleased we are getting something, after years of talk, and it is better than aussies first modern amp, the Tobruk hehe.
But can it run aground on purpose? The LPHs are as old!

Seriously I think the RNZN is getting quite a versitile ship for the money so I agree with what you say.
 

EnigmaNZ

New Member
Apparently we were offered the Tobruk but refused as it was considered too small. The next ships to require replacement over the 5 to 10 year time frame are the Endeavour, Mananui and Resolution, hopely new purpose built vessels, the last 2 really need to have a secondry mine countermeasures role as we will lose that function when the inshore patrol boats are retired in the next couple of years, but that is for the future, along with the Anzac upgrades. Woohoo. Hmm, as long as the green party don't get too much say in the next government, or the frigates will be gone.
 

alexsa

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EnigmaNZ said:
Apparently we were offered the Tobruk but refused as it was considered too small. The next ships to require replacement over the 5 to 10 year time frame are the Endeavour, Mananui and Resolution, hopely new purpose built vessels, the last 2 really need to have a secondry mine countermeasures role as we will lose that function when the inshore patrol boats are retired in the next couple of years, but that is for the future, along with the Anzac upgrades. Woohoo. Hmm, as long as the green party don't get too much say in the next government, or the frigates will be gone.
From what I understand (I am willing to be corrected) the Endeavour was a pretty astute buy at the time in terms of cost and capability. Hopefully the next AOR will be as good a decision.

It seems a pity the Mine hunter build in Australia could not have been extended to provide an IPV/Minehunter for NZ noting the Huon could fulfil the role (at greater cost admittedly). It would also provide some economies in regards to support between the RAN and RNZN.
 

EnigmaNZ

New Member
I forget the original cost of the Endeavour, but being Korean built it was fairly cheap. It did have engine problems on it's first voyage, and recently it was found the release for the lifeboats was faulty, but has been a good ship. Hard to believe it is coming up 25 years old. They are still being sold new.

The Huon is probably too small to replace the Resolution in the hydrographic and oceanographic roles, particulary as it operates all round the Pacific. But the Manuwanui, well maybe. Certainly the Resolution replacement will have the sensors necessary for the role, but a large, while the diving tender will fit size wise but in it's existing role doesn't require such an extensive sonar suite. But by 2010+ cost will have droped, so you never know. An updated budget Huon could fill both roles here, diving tender and mine warfare.
 

aaaditya

New Member
EnigmaNZ said:
I forget the original cost of the Endeavour, but being Korean built it was fairly cheap. It did have engine problems on it's first voyage, and recently it was found the release for the lifeboats was faulty, but has been a good ship. Hard to believe it is coming up 25 years old. They are still being sold new.

The Huon is probably too small to replace the Resolution in the hydrographic and oceanographic roles, particulary as it operates all round the Pacific. But the Manuwanui, well maybe. Certainly the Resolution replacement will have the sensors necessary for the role, but a large, while the diving tender will fit size wise but in it's existing role doesn't require such an extensive sonar suite. But by 2010+ cost will have droped, so you never know. An updated budget Huon could fill both roles here, diving tender and mine warfare.
hey what are the specifications for the huon,does it carry any weapons besides the 30mm cannon,what is the rov operated on it by the australian and the newzealand navies(would you be having any specifications)?
i believe it can be used for light coastal patrol and anti smuggling roles.:coffee
 

alexsa

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aaaditya said:
hey what are the specifications for the huon,does it carry any weapons besides the 30mm cannon,what is the rov operated on it by the australian and the newzealand navies(would you be having any specifications)?
i believe it can be used for light coastal patrol and anti smuggling roles.:coffee
Both Deagle and Naval Technology have information on the Huon. Principal dimensions are shown below.

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/huon_pm00011001.aspx

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/huon/

The vessels are fitted with a 30mm but I understand this being rebarreled to the 25mm unit used on the Armidales.

Crew 36
Endurance10 days
Draft 3 m 10-ft
Length 52.5 m (172-ft)
Max Range 2,780 km (1,501 nm)
Max Speed 14 kts
Full Displacement 720 tons
Passengers 13
Power 1,960 shp
Beam 9.9 m (32-ft)

I certainly could be used in the patrol role although I have to admit it is a bit slow at 14 knots.
 
A

Aussie Digger

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  • #153
alexsa said:
I certainly could be used in the patrol role although I have to admit it is a bit slow at 14 knots.
The Huons were used as patrol vessels in the Solomans last year during RAMSI.

Cheers.
 

aaaditya

New Member
alexsa said:
Both Deagle and Naval Technology have information on the Huon. Principal dimensions are shown below.

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/huon_pm00011001.aspx

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/huon/

The vessels are fitted with a 30mm but I understand this being rebarreled to the 25mm unit used on the Armidales.

Crew 36
Endurance10 days
Draft 3 m 10-ft
Length 52.5 m (172-ft)
Max Range 2,780 km (1,501 nm)
Max Speed 14 kts
Full Displacement 720 tons
Passengers 13
Power 1,960 shp
Beam 9.9 m (32-ft)

I certainly could be used in the patrol role although I have to admit it is a bit slow at 14 knots.
thanks for information.
wouldnt a 30mm gun be better considering that it is a bigger caliber and hence will have a longer range and greater hitting power. by the way what is firing rate of the 25mm gun and its range also who are the manufacturers?:coffee
 

alexsa

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aaaditya said:
thanks for information.
wouldnt a 30mm gun be better considering that it is a bigger caliber and hence will have a longer range and greater hitting power. by the way what is firing rate of the 25mm gun and its range also who are the manufacturers?:coffee
I believe it is the same M242 bushmaster that is used onthe Armidales and ASLAV (200 rpm). The 30mm is about 680 rpm from memory but this was being considered on the basis of a common gun and ammunition type for all RAN vessels.
 

aaaditya

New Member
thanks by the way can the gun be used for destroying the mines?

i believe that mcmv like huon carry our active,passive and mechanical sweeps of the mine can anyone differentiate the difference between them or provide a link?:coffee
 

cherry

Banned Member
Haven't two of the Huons been mothballed for cost cutting measures for ADF? If this is so, then why can't they be sold or leased to NZ to be used as they were meant and for patrol duties?
 

gf0012-aust

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cherry said:
Haven't two of the Huons been mothballed for cost cutting measures for ADF? If this is so, then why can't they be sold or leased to NZ to be used as they were meant and for patrol duties?
thats correct, which is a bit rude considering the amount of money spent recently to make acoustic mods to the those hulls. They could have exported them as well for new builds. They're now regarded as being in the top end of minewarfare capability.

another govt stuff up! :mad:
 

seantheaussie

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
thats correct, which is a bit rude considering the amount of money spent recently to make acoustic mods to the those hulls. They could have exported them as well for new builds. They're now regarded as being in the top end of minewarfare capability.

another govt stuff up! :mad:
The US is deficient in mine warfare & has relatively excessive armor & AEGIS ships so their loyal ally mothballs minehunters & buys abrams & AWDs:confused:
 

cherry

Banned Member
Well I am all for Abrams tanks and AWD. Perhaps we can sell these two mothballed Huons to the Yanks in exchange for additional tanks or something else we could do with?
 
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