New Zealand awards contract for $500 Million Dollar Project "Protector".

alexsa

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The 25mm Bushmaster cannon, has a range of about 2.5k's. That's it. It would be the closest naval engagement in modern history if it could actually engage another warship
Actually, just to be cheeky, the HMS Belfast engaged a German destroyer at point blank range in the North Atlantic in very misty conditions. In saying this the German vessel did not have an effective radar and thought Belfast was one of it own .... twleve 6" shells dispelled that illusion pretty quickly and with fatal results. I doubt a 25mm cannon really falls into that category.

In so far as lauching homing torpedoes at a ship I would not want to be on that helcopter even is the ship was equiped with a 76mm and half decent fire control to be perfectly honest.
 
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Aussie Digger

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I meant, but did not state "since WW2" in my last post. I think my point is valid though. The 25mm gun is not designed to be engaged in gun battles with other surface combatants. Too little range and hitting power. The gun is designed as a last ditch self defence weapon and to enable a ship to engage "non-combat" vessels, ie: type 3 illegal fishing boats, etc. I wouldn't want to be on said helo either. If the Seasprite is attempting to engage a warship with a Maverick missile or a Mk 46 torpedo, then there is a fair bet that said warship is probably going to have some sort of SAM system. Helo's generally do not fair particularly well when SAM's are fired at them. Particularly helo's with next to no EWSP systems, just like NZ's...
 
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Aussie Digger

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It's a bit hard to establish a price for the upgrade of a single ANZAC because they are being upgraded in a series of rolling upgrades, some of which (such as MU-90 and Harpoon II) were paid for quite a while ago. The ANZAC anti-ship missile defence (ASMD) upgrade program recently announced is costing $250 Million just for phase 1, which includes radar and fire control upgrades, the incorporation of and infra-red search and track system and a "second channel of fire" for the fleet (8 ships).

Given the Harpoon II missiles for the ANZAC frigates cost $64 million, plus upgraded Harpoon weapons control systems were acquired for an unknown sum and the MU-90's are being acquired for an unknown sum, plus the programmed phase 2 of the ASMD upgrade being another $250 million worth, plus the new towed sonar array, mine avoidance systems, additional Mk 41 VLS and ESSM missiles etc, you're probably looking at not much change out of $500 million per ship...
 

EnigmaNZ

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Ah, they are going with the 16 cell VLS on the Oz ANZACs, kewl, all ESSM's or a mix, hmm, tactical and they already have harpoon in the box launchers, so all ESSM's prosumably, equivalent of 64 SM-1's, nice.
 

alexsa

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Ah, they are going with the 16 cell VLS on the Oz ANZACs
The ship is certainly fitted witht he space for 16 cells but the information I have suggested the addition 8 cells have not yet been funded in the up grades taht are happening.

As a matter of interest I have seen a early GA plan of these ships in their 'intended' final configuration (intended when first being contracted). In those drawings they had all 16 cells, the additiona fire control system, 2 CIWS (one where the harpoonnow is and one on the hanger) and harpoon behind the mast. Looked very nice I have to say.

There are those that know much more about this that me but it seems likley that other upgrades will happend before the other 8 cells are fitted (if at all)although it would be a useful increase in capability.
 

Supe

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Regarding the RAN ANZACS: I think it's crazy they don't have a CIWS mounted on those ships. Is this to be rectified?

This project makes vague mention of anti-ship missile protection.
 

Jason_kiwi

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Can anybody tell me of any short/medium range patrol aircraft???

And does any body anything about how the NZ government is thinking about gunships???

thanks
 

alexsa

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Regarding the RAN ANZACS: I think it's crazy they don't have a CIWS mounted on those ships. Is this to be rectified?

This project makes vague mention of anti-ship missile protection.
A close in weapons system/anti missile system is included as part of future upgrades. I am not sure if these systems have formal funding approval at this stage (I don't think so) but they are certainly are part of the project being considered.

It may not be gun based system but I not SeaRAM and Mistral have been mentioned.
 

Supe

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IIRC the Huey's the Kiwis employ has a latent gunship capability but it's not in the same league as a helicopter designed and dedicated to that role. I don't see the Kiwis purchasing any gunships, at least not with the defence budget available and the government mindset.

Edit: Huey gunship

Oh and if you like miniguns: click me
 

gf0012-aust

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Jason_kiwi said:
Do you know any short/medium range patrol aircraft???
Are you talking full maritime patrol or search and rescue?

if the latter, then Oz uses a Dornier 328.
 

gf0012-aust

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Jason_kiwi said:
more coast guard type
Aircraft types vary from Fokker Friendships (Indons), Dash 8's, Dornier 328's (Oz), Orions, Nimrods, Atlantiques, IL-38's, Falcon 900's and Hercules.

Some of these aircraft types might double up as ASW and/or AEW&C depending on the military.
 
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Aussie Digger

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CASA C-235/295 aircraft also come with modular martime patrol, ASW packages as well and can double up as transport aircraft...
 

Jason_kiwi

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There current proposed armament is
25mm vullcan rapid fire cannon, 50 cals
Seaspite helicopter armed with mavrick anti ship missiles,torps,depth charges,homing torps and mg's

I think the opvs hav a fine armament for now. If they were to go onto combat I think they should arm them with

A twin 60mm Cannon
2 25 mm vulcans
2 triple torpedo tubes
1 mistril SAM site
4 50cal mgs
 
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Jason_kiwi

New Member
The MRV will be very capable
can carry a combany of troops and fighting vehicles
2 landing craft
5 NH90 helis
1 seaspite heli
arms: 25mm vulcan rapid cannon,4 50cal mg's

The OPV will be armed with 25mm and 4 50cals (25mm bullet are about 30cm long and a 50cal is about 12cm)

This is why the IPV's are much better than the old Moa class IPVs

The old inshore Patrol craft have served us well, but the four new Inshore Patrol Vessels will be more than twice the size and speed capability of the vessels they replace and will have a range of more than 3000 nautical miles, more than double that of the old craft. They will accommodate 36 crew and will be armed with three .50 calibre machine guns compared with the IPCs' one.
 
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Jason_kiwi

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Here is an article on NZ's poor little rich military

In reality, Defence has had vast amounts of taxpayer money earmarked for its use by this government. Despite the huge surpluses that Finance Minister Michael Cullen has chosen to amass, the health system has not enjoyed the instant gratification given to Defence, virtually from the moment that the Clark government took office.

Since the Defence Ministry's annually upgraded Long Term Development Plan was announced in 2002, 22 major projects have proceeded, totalling some $3 billion over the next decade – with roughly 40 percent being spent on the Air Force alone. Yes, the Air Force did lose the old Skyhawks, but its new expenditure includes:

$352 million for the upgrade of the Air Force P-3 Orions

an estimated $100-200m for the purchase and modification of two Boeing 757s for transporting VIP personnel and cargo

an estimated $400-$550m for the replacement of the current fleet of Iroquois utility helicopters

an estimated $11m to replace the Sioux training helicopters

an estimated $8m upgrade of Ohakea Air Force Base.


As for the Army, its new big-ticket items include:

$93m for a new fleet of Pinzgauer light operational vehicles to replace the Army's Land Rovers

$672m for a fleet of LAVs (light armoured vehicles) to replace the old M-113 tracked vehicles. The additional operational costs for these vehicles will rise from $12.9m this financial year to an estimated $15.21m in 2007/08

$26.8m for 24 Javelin medium-range anti-armour weapon systems

$120m for the so-called TMCS (tactical and mobile communication system) radios

$10m for an identification, alerting and cueing air defence missile capacity to complete our current Mistral VLLAD (very low-level air defence) system.


And the Navy hasn't missed out. Its checklist includes:

$500m for the Protector project that involves the acquisition of a new multi-role vessel, two 85-metre offshore patrol vessels and four 55-metre inshore patrol vessels to enhance military and economic security within our exclusion zone

the review of the Crown's long-term ocean-based research needs, and how the Navy can meet them.

In addition, the first phase (estimated cost: $10m) of the joint command and control system (JCCS) was completed in October 2003, and Cabinet approval is being sought for the next phase.


The bureaucrats haven't missed out, either. Their bounty includes:

a new $58.3m Defence HQ building in downtown Wellington, to be surrounded by an anti-terrorism security zone that will exacerbate the city's parking problems.

And for the troops? The 2004 Budget allocated a $20m pay rise for the armed forces – their fourth in four years – plus an additional $16m to enhance Air Force recruitment. In mid 2003, Defence Minister Mark Burton noted that the pay increases for 2003 alone "will equate to an increase of $1000 to $5000 per annum for the majority of personnel".

None of these figures includes the multi-million cost of the deployments in Timor Leste, Afghanistan and Iraq. True, the huge amounts cited above are spread over several years – yet, if anything, the sums are understated, in that most do not include project-creation costs, operational costs and inflation adjustments due after 2005/06.

Yes, Defence (like the health and education sectors) has been underfunded for years. It is also true that the Navy's Protector project will have economic and biosecurity benefits. By the same logic – presuming that national security is the rationale for the spending spree – the $70.2m in police anti-terrorism funding also belongs in this tally, as does the extra

$14.8m allocated to create dedicated police national security teams.

Can such massive expenditures possibly be justified, given the social and infrastructural needs evident elsewhere in New Zealand? The armed forces do face recruitment and retention problems – but then, so do the health and education systems, without being blessed with such a slew of new, ameliorative projects.

In election year, the government will be pointing to its 2004 Budget package of $1.2 billion for families in need. Very welcome, no doubt. It will be up to Labour to explain why it first ensured that the Army and Air Force had each been allocated similar levels of support. Odd priorities, some might think, for a centre-left government.
 

Jason_kiwi

New Member
I think the NZ Army is great...105 fighting vehicles,352 LOV's,24 anti armour weapons,mistril sam,unimog trucks,reconaccance vehilces,support vehicles,carl guistaf,81mm morters,105mm artillary,etc

The Navy is good except short 1 frigate,2 frigates,2 OPV's,1 MRV,1 Replemish,2 survey,1 diving/mine,4 patrol,2 LCM's,2 training.

The airforce is good except needs 20-30 fighters,7 transport,12 helis,3 short range patrol,new medium range patrol being considered,6 orions,5 seaspites,16 stunt/training,etc

all we need is 1-2 more frigates and some fighters
 
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