New Zealand Army

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Pardon my ignorance but the two (folding) brackets above the windscreen are wire cutters?

To protect the hatch gun operator ... and/or comms aerials (when fitted to the cabin sides) or other roof aerials on C&C type variants)?



Photo Source:

Haven't noticed them on the MHOV (HX trucks) or armored Pinzgauer before? If not, looks like a lot of thought was put into the Bushmaster design!
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Pardon my ignorance but the two (folding) brackets above the windscreen are wire cutters?

To protect the hatch gun operator ... and/or comms aerials (when fitted to the cabin sides) or other roof aerials on C&C type variants)?



Photo Source:

Haven't noticed them on the MHOV (HX trucks) or armored Pinzgauer before? If not, looks like a lot of thought was put into the Bushmaster design!
On the MHOVs the wire cutters are mounted directly to the gun plate and the LAVs have one mounted central in front and another on the turret. Seems to have been an afterthought on the pinzgauer (ie forgotten) but tbh they forgot a few things on the A pinz in general like upgraded suspension, air con, more horsepower, uprated trans etc so not exactly a surprise tbh.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
On the MHOVs the wire cutters are mounted directly to the gun plate and the LAVs have one mounted central in front and another on the turret. Seems to have been an afterthought on the pinzgauer (ie forgotten) but tbh they forgot a few things on the A pinz in general like upgraded suspension, air con, more horsepower, uprated trans etc so not exactly a surprise tbh.
My colleague is wrestling with some Pinz issues at the moment.
What Ive seen of the wiring on those completely rule them out as a deployable asset and should serve to rule out anybody involved in that politically driven acquisition from any comment on any subject at any time. Starting with Helen Clark.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Bushmaster details such as variant numbers, basing at Linton and Burnham (but with new training, simulation and headquarters infrastructure to be built at Linton), to be fitted with an interim C4 communications system (RFT for a new C4 communications system is expected by mid-2023, with delivery 2025-26 to allow the Bushmasters to be operationally deployed), Thales still involved with training, capability integration and support.

Apparently the Plan ANZAC Bilateral Service Cooperation Plan intends to field a New Zealand Motorised Infantry Battalion Group within an Australian brigade.

Presumably the NZ Army will send over a detachment for when training?

But I can't help wonder if some sort of permanent basing could be established in Australia it will also work wonders for recruitment and retention.

Regardless it signals greater co-operation and interoperability.

Source: Tim Fish writing for Monch Publishing 31 May.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Bushmaster details such as variant numbers, basing at Linton and Burnham (but with new training, simulation and headquarters infrastructure to be built at Linton), to be fitted with an interim C4 communications system (RFT for a new C4 communications system is expected by mid-2023, with delivery 2025-26 to allow the Bushmasters to be operationally deployed), Thales still involved with training, capability integration and support.

Apparently the Plan ANZAC Bilateral Service Cooperation Plan intends to field a New Zealand Motorised Infantry Battalion Group within an Australian brigade.

Presumably the NZ Army will send over a detachment for when training?

But I can't help wonder if some sort of permanent basing could be established in Australia it will also work wonders for recruitment and retention.

Regardless it signals greater co-operation and interoperability.

Source: Tim Fish writing for Monch Publishing 31 May.
Seems to be a few numerical issues with this report considering we only ever had 321 pinzgauers total (including the armoured variants) so replacing both these and the remaining unimogs (@220 from the original 450) with just 230 vehicles is bound to leave some units wanting to say the least?

I've read somewhere else that the tender for 143 UV-L and 334 UV-M was to replace the remaining Pinz. These numbers seem more in line to replace both the pinz and mogs rather than old mates 230, albeit still less than current numbers (But that seems to be the new norm anyway). Considering one of the pre-requisites was that they needed to be COTS, with 1000 in current use and ideally from the same family for commonalitys sake I would seriously be leaning towards the ADF G-wagons with the 4x4 version for the UV-L and 6x6 variant for UV-M options. Covers off proven, interoperable and support programme being already in place just across the ditch. Bonus being they have armoured options as well.

I don't nesscessarily see us needing to base troops in Aus and more maybe a greater emphasis on combined training at unit level. Tbh we have essentially been abiding by this structure already with Aus taking the lead in deployments and us providing relative/relevant support. Timor (2 + Aus bns, 1 NZ), Timor 2 (Aus bn, kiwi coy), Solomons (Aus coy, NZ platoon), Iraq trg mission etc. The orgs pretty much always been there this just formalizes the arrangement.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Seems to be a few numerical issues with this report considering we only ever had 321 pinzgauers total (including the armoured variants) so replacing both these and the remaining unimogs (@220 from the original 450) with just 230 vehicles is bound to leave some units wanting to say the least?

I've read somewhere else that the tender for 143 UV-L and 334 UV-M was to replace the remaining Pinz. These numbers seem more in line to replace both the pinz and mogs rather than old mates 230, albeit still less than current numbers (But that seems to be the new norm anyway). Considering one of the pre-requisites was that they needed to be COTS, with 1000 in current use and ideally from the same family for commonalitys sake I would seriously be leaning towards the ADF G-wagons with the 4x4 version for the UV-L and 6x6 variant for UV-M options. Covers off proven, interoperable and support programme being already in place just across the ditch. Bonus being they have armoured options as well.

I don't nesscessarily see us needing to base troops in Aus and more maybe a greater emphasis on combined training at unit level. Tbh we have essentially been abiding by this structure already with Aus taking the lead in deployments and us providing relative/relevant support. Timor (2 + Aus bns, 1 NZ), Timor 2 (Aus bn, kiwi coy), Solomons (Aus coy, NZ platoon), Iraq trg mission etc. The orgs pretty much always been there this just formalizes the arrangement.
Yeah, may have been a typo in the article about Pinz numbers (or was meant to mean both Unimogs and Pinz's)?

According to this OIA request (Sept 2022) there were 266 non-armored Pinz delivered but only 255 operational as of Sept 2022 (which doesn't quite add up to 261 in itself).

Same OIA request states 224 Unimogs remain in service, with 98 earmarked for future disposal. So is the PMCP project looking to replace all remaining Unimogs or just some (i.e. still leaving some others with the Reserve Units, and/or increasing their numbers as the Regular Force passes some more down to them in time)?
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
I would love to know when, where and who is involved in this interim C4 and storage fitout.

My understanding was it was all on hold till funds were released.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Yeah, may have been a typo in the article about Pinz numbers (or was meant to mean both Unimogs and Pinz's)?

According to this OIA request (Sept 2022) there were 266 non-armored Pinz delivered but only 255 operational as of Sept 2022 (which doesn't quite add up to 261 in itself).

Same OIA request states 224 Unimogs remain in service, with 98 earmarked for future disposal. So is the PMCP project looking to replace all remaining Unimogs or just some (i.e. still leaving some others with the Reserve Units, and/or increasing their numbers as the Regular Force passes some more down to them in time)?
Exactly, no matter which way you cut it there is literally no way 230 replacements will cover both fleets (remaining pinz and unimogs) anyway as that is still currently 479 vehicles total remaining (and not including remaining 2228 trucks either). I know we will most likely aqquire less vehicles which is generally the case but more than halving seems alittle extreme so surely that quoted figure is for either pinzgauer OR unimog and not both. They have recently just had another big auction of mogs and other equipment through turners so that was probably the 98 mentioned.

I can't see them keeping mogs once the new vehicles begin arriving considering they were deemed obsolete almost a decade ago now already as you can only beat a dead horse so long no matter how good that horse is. They have definately proven their worth during these recent disasters almost putting the MANs to shame really.

Will also be interesting to see if air force keep their small fleet of pinz which were aqquired separately and take on a few more surplus army variants or tag onto the replacement project and go with whatever army decides?
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I would love to know when, where and who is involved in this interim C4 and storage fitout.

My understanding was it was all on hold till funds were released.
It will all be tied into the wider NEA project which is still on going as comms are literally an integral part of it, backbone infact. The problem of doing a project in stages is merging it all together and making (hoping) all the chess pieces work together.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
It will all be tied into the wider NEA project which is still on going as comms are literally an integral part of it, backbone infact. The problem of doing a project in stages is merging it all together and making (hoping) all the chess pieces work together.
Yeah I've been watching the nea activity from my office the last couple of months and they have been very busy. But have not heard anythIng about what mechanical fitout work is needed to facilitate it all. Do these have 19" racks installed? Do they have rifle racks for MARS? All that sort of kiwi-isation stuff.

But seeing as Wagner group looks like they are invading the chatham islands something should probably made ready soonish.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
Lol the Chatham Islanders local intel on who steps foot on 'their islands' would likely far outweigh any Wagner Group capability! ;)
Well i suspect its wagner planning a fishing charter for xmas shutdown.
As long as they declare if they have been near any orchards or farms. Or illegally invading or committing war crimes etc.
 

SP_viewer

Member
Exactly, no matter which way you cut it there is literally no way 230 replacements will cover both fleets (remaining pinz and unimogs) anyway as that is still currently 479 vehicles total remaining (and not including remaining 2228 trucks either). I know we will most likely aqquire less vehicles which is generally the case but more than halving seems alittle extreme so surely that quoted figure is for either pinzgauer OR unimog and not both. They have recently just had another big auction of mogs and other equipment through turners so that was probably the 98 mentioned.

I can't see them keeping mogs once the new vehicles begin arriving considering they were deemed obsolete almost a decade ago now already as you can only beat a dead horse so long no matter how good that horse is. They have definately proven their worth during these recent disasters almost putting the MANs to shame really.

Will also be interesting to see if air force keep their small fleet of pinz which were aqquired separately and take on a few more surplus army variants or tag onto the replacement project and go with whatever army decides?
Are these not just replacing the Armoured Pinz? That's what I've heard and Andrew Little only mentions them replacing 60 Pinz vehicles here which is how many Armoured Pinz NZDF bought:
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Are these not just replacing the Armoured Pinz? That's what I've heard and Andrew Little only mentions them replacing 60 Pinz vehicles here which is how many Armoured Pinz NZDF bought:
Different projects. The 43 bushmasters have replaced the 60 armoured pinzgauers, correct. These quoted 230 new "utility trucks" are the next stage of armys PMCP programme supposedly aimed at replacing the un-armoured pinzgauers (266) and remaining garrison unimogs (224) which in terms of numbers alone doesn't quite add up to even 1 for 1, hence the obvious shortfall somewhere in either 1 or both of the legacy fleets.
 

SP_viewer

Member
Different projects. The 43 bushmasters have replaced the 60 armoured pinzgauers, correct. These quoted 230 new "utility trucks" are the next stage of armys PMCP programme supposedly aimed at replacing the un-armoured pinzgauers (266) and remaining garrison unimogs (224) which in terms of numbers alone doesn't quite add up to even 1 for 1, hence the obvious shortfall somewhere in either 1 or both of the legacy fleets.
Ah sorry, my misunderstanding.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Different projects. The 43 bushmasters have replaced the 60 armoured pinzgauers, correct. These quoted 230 new "utility trucks" are the next stage of armys PMCP programme supposedly aimed at replacing the un-armoured pinzgauers (266) and remaining garrison unimogs (224) which in terms of numbers alone doesn't quite add up to even 1 for 1, hence the obvious shortfall somewhere in either 1 or both of the legacy fleets.
I have been following that RFT for ages, and the number of additions and corrections to the RFT are beyond a joke.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
NZ Army News Issue 542 (May 2023) has an update on Plan ANZAC, the plan to improve co-operation between the NZ and Australian Armies.
Would value others opinion but my reading of it is that one of the major aims is to enable the NZ Army to provide a motorized battalion which will be the NZ contribution to a combined NZ/Australian Brigade. NZ Army will adopt Australian Doctrine and training regime.
Interestingly the same Army News edition has an article about the 27th Commonwealth Brigade, from the Korean War, where Australian and NZ forces served together. Back to the Future!

Screen Shot 2023-06-16 at 4.08.13 pm.png

Screen Shot 2023-06-16 at 4.08.55 pm.png
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Well the NZ Army needs to have a decent air defence capability, UAV capability and wheeled SPGs. The Russo Ukrainian war is driving those lessons home hard. The Army should have MANPADS and a SPAAG/M capability. Since the Australians are acquiring NASAMS we should too. Army will also require more helicopter lift capability than what the NZDF have at the moment.

EDIT: Add link
 
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Stuart M

Well-Known Member
Major General Howard Kippenberger said:
The period 1930-1938 was probably the most discouraging the New Zealand Army has survived. Those who soldiered on knew that they had no support or sympathy from Government or the great majority of the public… Equipment was never replaced, however worn or useless. The economy axe fell mercilessly on the small Regular Force… This was in 1938, with war clearly imminent. Four colonels who publicly denied a Ministerial statement that all was well were placed at once on the Retired List. It was a good experience. No one, professional or amateur, who continued to serve throughout that period, could ever be completely discouraged by the disappointments and disasters we were soon to suffer.
Brigadier Stanley Crump (massey.ac.nz)

A thesis on Brigadier General Crump, boss of New Zealand Army Service Corp during WW2. Aside from the worthiness of this essay, this extract from Kip in someways sums up the last few decades and the more recent effects of the Covid on the Army and shows where the army needs to go in rebuilding its capacity to fight.

Certainly, Crumps work should finally be of required observance of followers of NZ army affairs, as logistics has reappeared as an issue with the Ukraine war. For armies like Australia and NZ as well as the UK these days, logistics from battalion to division in a warzone should be an attention grabber, but unfortunately blanket stacking does not have the same military sex appeal as being that bloke on the balcony at the Iranian Embassy Siege. This is quite a balcony, as I hear that at least 100.000 blokes might claim that honour of being on it on the day but it seems that no one ever wants to the guy who handed out the winged boots on the famous feet of doom.

Amongst the key issues Crump was addressing at that point was how to train his units in supporting mobile warfare with mechanised vehicles when the Army at that time in New Zealand was only equipped with a handful of trucks. A temporary solution was found for at least a modicum of training in motor transport to be conducted before embarking for overseas service – the Officer Commanding (OC) Petrol Company in Trentham received orders in November 1939 to uplift a motley crew of transport from Palmerston North, being a “mixed bag of butchers’ vans, brewery wagons, and the like, plus one Diamond-T truck, and Indiana 5-ton flat-top, and a couple of Morrises.”
and

During this time vehicles continued to be ordered and provided from the United Kingdom to Egypt. This enabled Crump’s ASC soldiers to begin their journey towards expert familiarity in their machines of war. Hardly any of Crump’s soldiers had prior experience with heavy vehicles. For example, one of 4 RMT’s sections (a platoon-sized unit) had 90 men, but only three had driven heavy transport vehicles in New Zealand, and only 30 of the whole section had a basic car license. The remainder, 57 men, had never even driven a car.14 The challenge of turning untrained civilians into expert drivers and soldiers was met by Crump and his subordinate commanders who began an intensive and innovative training regime to teach not just how to drive, but also how to navigate the barren desert by day and night (a skill that paid great dividends later on in the war), maintain the vehicle, marry-up with the fighting troops and how to defend against air attack
History not repeating, but rhyming to disturbing degree? And as the Ukraine war shows, where does the gear come from and how is it moved to the location its needed at? Something worth pondering, but not enough do so at the political level.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
NZ Army Motorised Infantry Battle Group.

I am throwing this out for discussion. It's one suggested acquisition set for the NZ Army that has the probability of both interoperability and compatibility with the AU Army. I have deliberately neglected the rotary wing airlift capability.

From what I understand a MIBG (Motorised Infantry Battle Group) comprises infantry in soft skinned vehicles; and that the command and support structures are relatively small, compared to a brigade structure. Ukraine has shown the vulnerability of soft skinned vehicles anywhere within enemy artillery and drone range. Hence my belief that such a force structure has a good probability of suffering severe casualties before the MIBG reaches the frontlines, if they are detected by the enemy. Based upon the presumption that we could face the PLA in battle, this isn't an ideal situation, especially with the PLA-GF watching and learning the lessons of the Russo - Ukrainian War. The PRC has a strong drone manufacturing capability and they are not the Russian military, WRT inept leadership, logistics etc., and they have a political philosophy and governance system that they all believe in.

This leads into the question how do we equip the NZ Army and MIBG in order for it to survive and fight; and the organisational structure that best serves the NZ Army.

I note that the Australians have selected the Hanwha AS-21 Redback as its tracked IFV replacing their M113 AS APC. They have also selected the AS-9 Huntsman and its AS-10 ammo supply vehicle for its SPG capability, and the Rheinmetall Boxer for its CRV / wheeled IFV. The Redback, being based on the Hanwha K21 IFV that's in service with the South Korean Army. The Elbit MT30 turret with the Mk-44 Bushmaster 30mm gun and Spike LR2 ATGM, is mounted on the Redback.

The Australian Army has a minimal AD capability based on the NASAMS system, and no real mobile VSHORAD capability to protect its armoured forces in the field, especially when they are on the move. I get the impression that the Australians haven't figured out that the may be bereft of battlefield air superiority; and questions have to be asked whether or not they have bought fully into the US arrogance about that. According to 4 Star Gen Breedlove (USAF Ret) former SACEUR, the last time a US soldier was killed by enemy fixed wing action, was in April 1953 in Korea.

NZ
The NZ Army reconstitution plan calls for the commonality of platforms etc., with the Australian Army. With this in mind we should consider a ground combat fleet comprising a mix of:
  • Hanwha Redback IFV.
  • Rheinmetall CRV.
  • Bushmaster 4 x 4 vehicles.
  • AS9 Huntsman SPG
  • AS10 ammo supply vehicles for the Huntsman SPG.
  • We should also adopt the Australian Army Battle Management System.

Such a fleet would give us a good combat capability and hopefully the Redback should be able to be integrated with turrets already integrated on the K21. This would enable us to utilise the base Redback vehicle for other capabilities, such as a light tank for infantry fire support and as a mobile VSHORAD, something both the Australians and us are sorely lacking in. The Aussies are using the Redback for their armoured force infantry and whilst we don't field a MBT, we should have such a vehicle for our infantry to ensure that they can be safely deployed in a hostile environment, especially one where a wheeled IFV may be incapable of traversing, or insufficiently armoured for.

We could use the CRV to replace the current NZLAV on a one for one basis. The Aussies intend using it for recon but we could and should use it for fast deployment of troops. Each CRV should have the 30mm turret installed as well. It just gives us more flexibility on the battlefield.

We aren't going to acquire MBTs unless we could buy some Leopard Ones and use them in the infantry support role, like the Ukrainians appear to be doing, however I can't really see the justification for that. Hanwha has integrated the Cockerill 105mm gun turret onto the K21 with this being known as the Hanwha K21-105 and it retains the K21 amphibious capabilities. The Cockerill gun is also capable of firing the Ukrainian Falkirk ATGM. Hanwha also has integrated an air defence turret with a radar, 30mm gun, and SHORAD SAMs onto the K21 IFV.

The Ukrainians love the Australian 4 x 4 Bushmaster and it has proved to be quite good on the battlefield. IIRC we have ordered 44 odd Bushmasters. Maybe we should replace the complete Pinzgauer fleet on a one to one basis with the Bushmaster; it would make sense.

Another capability is a MRLS such as HiMARS, but I feel that the South Korean K239 Chunmoo system would be better and more easily obtainable, considering the US delays with manufacturing new order HiMARS because of their inadequate industrial surge capacity.

Whilst it can be argued that we would be operating within the context of an Anzac Brigade, and the AU Army would supply the heavy kit such as arty and tanks, they do have a limited number of armoured combat assets and we should be self sufficient in such capabilities. Ultimately we are responsible for ensuring the survivability of our own forces, regardless of who with, how, and where they are operating. It gives us the capability of working independently if needs be. Cost will be a factor but it would be money well spent; VfM.
 
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