New Turkish Tank's Design

[Yasin20]

oh awsome i hope i dont miss it out if its shown on the news when ever with out me even knowing and for Ares who asked for the links when i when on it again the page dos not again keeps saying page is not found

 

[beleg]

Damn what a talk! Turkey just need the know how to produce a tank. The 120mm sb tank-gun will be manufactured bu MKEK, possibly by tech transfer. This will be done by a sub-contractor and not a main contractor. So it is possibly a joint venture design, the barrel ofcourse.

The Hull is also something what is not done in 3 seconds. Also here is a sub contractor needed. Thats it. The rest of the systems are all manufactured 100% by Turkish firms.

There are 2 firms short listed: KMW and the K2 MBT producer.

End of this year, there is a chance to produce a prototype. Lets wait....

Please read my post proper. There the person at head of SSM himself tells everything about the project. Why still making assumptions and guesses?

In a dreamworld you can see a prototype at and of this year..But this is real world.. If i remember correctly prototype is scheduled for 2009 but it may be even a later date.
We are not going to work on someones blueprint and copy an existing tank. It takes years to make a design and even then there can be problems. Look @ India's Arjun.

About the gun we don't need any tech transfer as we have got some know how on making a 120mm short barrel. I think initially the plan will be making it longer not buying a new gun system..

The hull? We are building T-155/K-9 howitzers we also have deep experience with Leopard and M60 hulls, we do know how a hull of a tank is built . That is not a problem as well..

The battle management system and the fire control systems already exist.

Engine will be bought of the shelf.

Armor.. R&D.. and only point of concern..

 

[Soner1980]

No my dear, the T-155 is a license production. The parts are mostly built in Turkey but critical parts just come by shipment from Korea. Turkey has the right to built ASELSAN's electronic systems. Fysically it is almost the same of the K-9 but with changes in computerized systems, the K-9 will never be a T-155 or vice versa.

We have the know-how to manufacture tracked AFV, but designing it is not easy, like you told. You are right that the prototype is expected somewhere in 2009. The 120mm SB tank gun will be for sure manufactured with tech transfer. This was met with the Sabra project by IMI. The 120mm SB CTG is built under license by MKEK...

The armor is not easy as you tell. Russians have invested millions in composite armor. First in their T-64 with many upgrades. Maybe 10 years are invested with many millions of dollars. Turkey has the knowledge of producing composite armor plating. But it is not like multi-layered or laminate armor plates like on the Leo-2 or Abrams.

The 500 millions dollar was approved for the design of the prototype. To build a prototype in 2 years you have to be very clever to do this in such short time. But I don't know how the first batch of 250 mbt's will be but the second batch of 250 mbt's will be more advanced than the first batch of 250 tanks.

 

[beleg]

I think you have a problem understanding what i am saying.

The hull of T-155 is being manufactured in Turkey , its not shipped from Korea. As far as i know mainly the gun is being imported from Korea at the moment. The rest especially the electronics are Turkish production. Original K-9 uses aluminum in some components while T-155 uses steel which is cheaper to produce. I give this as an example because the hull of a SPH is basically VERY similar to a MBT. Turkey can design & build a hull thanks to the cooperation with Korea on the SPH project.

The only and the most important part we lack info is armor and we will need to develop it locally. It is not possible or feasible to import armor technology. And as i said it is the only point of concern. I didn't say its easy i said its hard.. Its a point of concern.

anyway , Korea is selected as the tech & support partner for the new MBT. We'll see how things develop but we have to wait a long time for the prototype its not going to be ready before 2009. Even this date is IMO very optimistic if we are not going to copy K-2 like we did to K-9..

 

[Soner1980]

Yes, I also mean what you are typing here. We both don't understand each other... Critical parts are imported from S. Korea, other parts are manufactured in Turkey... what ever...

The T-155 hull, is a bit different from a MBT hull. But it looks like the same. If it was the almost the same, then we don't need help from a S. Korean sub-contractor firm(see SSM.gov.tr site for news updates on the MITUP) for construction know how. All the systems will be manufactured by Turkey. Only the construction will be done with some help from S. Korea. The gun, electronics, armor, tracks etc.. will be all 100% Turkish manufacture. Only the power pack, I don't know about this. What kind of engine would be used? Import or Turkish model?

 

[beleg]

Dear Soner you seem to miss the comments by Sec Murat Bayar a few posts above posted by me.. I'll quote it again ;

This will be a wholly new MBT design to meet specific Turkish requirements, he said. The SSM, he said,has identified the initial requirement for the TAF as 250 platforms. However, Bayar noted:“In Turkey we have more than 3,000 tanks, the average age of which is fairly old. Over the next 20 years, you can easily assume that the entire fleet will be replaced with new tanks.”

Bayar adds that the current M60A3 upgrade programme with Israel Military Industries and Leopard 1A1s with Aselsan fire control systems have provided Turkey with the infrastructure for the new MBT programme.

“The Leopard upgrade is, however, not simply a fire control upgrade. The whole tank is being disassembled; everything is being replaced with new parts and reassembled. Therefore, I can now say I have a modern fire control system and a final assembly line [at Kayseri] with the tooling and expertise to manufacture new hulls. There are two areas in which we lack the expertise: one is the engine, which we will buy in; the second, which is more important, is the armor – this encompasses the whole spectrum of protection. We will therefore invest in the development of this armor capability and that will be locally designed and manufactured. We will set up that capability, maybe to provide whatever is required for the next 20 years.”

Please focus on bold italic part.

a SPH hull is very similar to a hull of a MBT , if you can build one you can build the other too.. You don't need technical assistance for that. The technical assistance needed will be for other areas , imo especially for the design of the turret , auto loader like in K-2? .. Many things are not clear yet we will see in the next months..

• Tank design awarded to Otokar. They will get assistance from Koreans when and where they need.
• Fire control system and C&I systems are subcontracted to Aselsan
• The gun is subcontracted to MKEK which produced M60T barrel under license however its not clear yet if they will use the same gun or something else.
• Engine , probably MTU Diesel off the shelf
• Armor , Research and development project. God knows how much we know about this. This is the main part that we should worry about..

I hope the tank will have some advanced tricks introduced in K2 (like active protection , raising and lowering of the tanks height). I don't know if we want an autoloader but the tank should be operable even if the autoloader doesn't work.

 

[Soner1980]

Hi Beleg, and I have read this: It's Turkish but you are also Turkish. English not yet available. I will translate this so far I can do this

MSB Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı'nın Basın Açıklaması (20 Haziran 2007)

20.06.2007

SAVUNMA SANAYİİ İCRA KOMİTESİ (SSİK):

1. HAVA KUVVETLERİ KOMUTANLIĞININ TEMEL EĞİTİM UÇAĞI İHTİYACINI KARŞILAMAK ÜZERE KAI (GÜNEY KORE) FİRMASI İLE SÖZLEŞME GÖRÜŞMELERİNE BAŞLANMASINA,
For the air force, KAI has won the basic training aircraft.


2. TÜRK SİLAHLI KUVVETLERİNİN MODERN ANA MUHAREBE TANKI İHTİYACININ KARŞILANMASI AMACIYLA BAŞLATILAN MİLLİ İMKANLARLA MODERN TANK ÜRETİMİ PROJESİNDE ANA ALT YÜKLENİCİLERİN BELİRLENMESİNE İLİŞKİN OLARAK;
The project for the need of modern MBT production. The Main sub-contractor has been selected by the defensive secretariat.

• DAHA ÖNCE ANA YÜKLENİCİ OLARAK BELİRLENMİŞ OLAN OTOKAR FİRMASINA GEREKLİ ALANLARDA TEKNİK DESTEK SAĞLAMAK ÜZERE ALT YÜKLENİCİ OLARAK ÖNCELİKLE ADD/ROTEM (G.KORE) İLE GÖRÜŞMELERE BAŞLANMASINA,

Otokar was selected as the main contractor last time. For technical assistance, ADD/ROTEM (S. Korea) was selected and the talks has been started.

• ATIŞ KONTROL SİSTEMİ İLE KOMUTA KONTROL MUHABERE VE BİLGİ SİSTEMİNİN GELİŞTİRİLMESİ VE ÜRETİLMESİ İÇİN ASELSAN A.Ş. İLE ALT YÜKLENİCİLİK SÖZLEŞMESİNİN İMZALANMASINA,

The Fire control system and command control communications and information systems are being developed by ASELSAN A.S..

• TANK ANA SİLAHINI ÜRETMEK AMACIYLA MKEK İLE ALT YÜKLENİCİLİK SÖZLEŞMESİ İMZALANMASINA,

MKEK will be kept responsible for the main armament.

• ZIRHIN MİLLİ OLARAK ÜRETİLMESİ İÇİN ÇALIŞMALARA DEVAM EDİLMESİNE,

The armor of the tank will be produced after domestic research has been completed.

• ASKERİ FABRİKALARDAKİ MEVCUT YETENEK VE YATIRIMLARDAN AZAMİ ÖLÇÜDE İSTİFADE EDİLMESİNE,

Investment in military factories for capabilities will go on till the level has been reached to bring acceptable output for the project.

3. MKEK’NA, BARUTSAN ÜRETİM TESİSİSİNİN YENİLENMESİ AMACIYLA 20 M $ TUTARINDA KREDİ VERİLMESİNE

KARAR ALMIŞTIR.

(20 HAZİRAN 2007)​

$ 20mln credit will be granted for Barutsan for renewal of the complex.
(June 20th, 2007)

This is all what I know from sources plus some information from forums. Please tell more, we need information! Don't understand me wrong, but just look from the bright side.

 

[beleg]

It basically says what i wrote above, nothing much different. So after all like most of us guessed Turkey's ties with S.Korea is getting stronger.

 

[Soner1980]

Ok, we did not understand each others language till I posted the etire article....

Yes, S. Korea was already a good ally of Turkey, also when the world cup in 2003 the S. Koreans supported Turkey in the finals, we were 3rd then...

Now, we have also military deals with our S. Korean allies. The first with the T-155, then the basic training aircraft and now the MiTÜP project too. I love them. Meaning that Turkey is self sufficient, is als a big plus for S. Korea too.

But I don't think the Turkish MBT will have an auto-loader. I mean I don't want it because it is not more reliable. When the turret is penetrated and the crew survive and the loader is busted, then it is very hard to load the gun. If you have lost the loader, the other crew member can take his place without affecting the reload speed. What is your opinion about this?

 

[Akinci-Raider]

It basically says what i wrote above, nothing much different. So after all like most of us guessed Turkey's ties with S.Korea is getting stronger.

They are strong....anyway how much money will cost(per piece)on this tank?

 

[eckherl]

Ok, we did not understand each others language till I posted the etire article....

Yes, S. Korea was already a good ally of Turkey, also when the world cup in 2003 the S. Koreans supported Turkey in the finals, we were 3rd then...

Now, we have also military deals with our S. Korean allies. The first with the T-155, then the basic training aircraft and now the MiTÜP project too. I love them. Meaning that Turkey is self sufficient, is als a big plus for S. Korea too.

But I don't think the Turkish MBT will have an auto-loader. I mean I don't want it because it is not more reliable. When the turret is penetrated and the crew survive and the loader is busted, then it is very hard to load the gun. If you have lost the loader, the other crew member can take his place without affecting the reload speed. What is your opinion about this?

I am quite sure that a auto loader will be looked at in the design aspect of a Turkey tank design due to the possibility of a larger caliber gun in the future, you may not need it now but going to larger calibers represent issues in regards to ammunition weights and size, major ergonomics and safety issues. Even the Black Panther is designed to work with larger caliber guns. I am not a big fan of auto loaders either, but my friend, we may not have a choice either in the future.

 

[BilalK]

They are strong....anyway how much money will cost(per piece)on this tank?

The XK2 prototype is $8-9mn per tank, I imagine the Turkish MBT will cost around that much...but it will go down during production for the Turkish Army.

 

[Soner1980]

Good point Eckherl! The 90mm tank round was able to reload very vast in the tank. Then the 105 came in use with the M60, (later the M48A5 and finaly in the Abrams) it was a fine tank gun. The 120mm can be loaded also very vast with a human loader. But I don't think there will be larger tank guns in the future. You can go larger and larger and finally we can use the 203mm howitsers caliber as tank guns. Is a 203mm APFSDS round better than a 120mm APFSDS? The HEAT round will be better. Will the 203mm APFSDS (203mm is an example) have a muzzle velocity of 3000 m/sec. ? How many round can be carried? 18 like the JS-3 in 1945?

I don't think the first Turkish tank also be so expensive like the K2. But really I don't know. Maybe $ 2 mln or maybe $ 10mln.

 

[eckherl]

Good point Eckherl! The 90mm tank round was able to reload very vast in the tank. Then the 105 came in use with the M60, (later the M48A5 and finaly in the Abrams) it was a fine tank gun. The 120mm can be loaded also very vast with a human loader. But I don't think there will be larger tank guns in the future. You can go larger and larger and finally we can use the 203mm howitsers caliber as tank guns. Is a 203mm APFSDS round better than a 120mm APFSDS? The HEAT round will be better. Will the 203mm APFSDS (203mm is an example) have a muzzle velocity of 3000 m/sec. ? How many round can be carried? 18 like the JS-3 in 1945?

I don't think the first Turkish tank also be so expensive like the K2. But really I don't know. Maybe $ 2 mln or maybe $ 10mln.

I can see the next level being in the 130mm to 140mm caliber range on Russian and Western series tanks in the future, they already have been tested with good results, after this phase we will most likely see ETC type guns. We are already testing auto loaders in M1 series tanks for the 120mm.

 

[Soner1980]

Why larger guns? The Leo-2A6 have the same caliber but with a longer barrel. The old 120mm gun has a range of 3000 meters to destroy tanks effectively, now with the longer version, 5000 meter range is a very long range fot tank guns.

They have to try out the 105mm or 90mm tank guns with muzzle velocity booster. More ammo is also important, 90mm APFSDS with 1800 m/s speed is great I think.

But the enemy will not scare away with a pippet so they built big guns

Auto loader in the Abrams? Never heard of it. But who knows? The Germans are working for a new tank gun and also the Russians for it's T-95. T-95 was cancelled Nizjniy Tagil came with the T-90 upgrade what is cheaper for the Russian army.

 

[eckherl]

Why larger guns? The Leo-2A6 have the same caliber but with a longer barrel. The old 120mm gun has a range of 3000 meters to destroy tanks effectively, now with the longer version, 5000 meter range is a very long range fot tank guns.

They have to try out the 105mm or 90mm tank guns with muzzle velocity booster. More ammo is also important, 90mm APFSDS with 1800 m/s speed is great I think.

But the enemy will not scare away with a pippet so they built big guns

Auto loader in the Abrams? Never heard of it. But who knows? The Germans are working for a new tank gun and also the Russians for it's T-95. T-95 was cancelled Nizjniy Tagil came with the T-90 upgrade what is cheaper for the Russian army.

We have come close to maxing out the capabilities of 120 mm KE ammunition, max effective range for engaging modern tanks with the likes of 3000 meters is not standard, 2000 meters is a more realistic range including for the L55.
The Russians will end up going to a bustle mounted system due to the fact that possibly current penetrator size is pretty much maxed out, it could very well possibly be the case now engaging tanks with the likes of M1A2 or
Leo2A6 at the 2000 meter mark.

The U.S, UK and Germans have tested with auto loaders, the technology has been tried and proven.

 

[beleg]

Soner its more of a business than friendship.. I don't think the peoples affection to each other have great effect in business deals.

Well as i said the most worrisome thing is neither the gun nor the autoloader nor another point. We can solve these problems. Its the armor. Will we use the aluminum based armor on K2? What is the situation with local R&D projects ? Boron & Steel can produce enough protection? These questions are important. Active protection systems are a must.. Will they be installed?

We need time to see how it goes.

If K2 is localized like in K-9/T-155 project then we can safely assume the final price will be less than 8m$ because we have many price advantages over Korea. T-155 costs much less than K-9 per unit.

 

[yasin22]

any have any idea if the second designe of the tank came out yeat like you know new drawings