New turkish tank !!???

[swerve]

Turkey is upgrading its Leopard 2s (its own upgrade - it no longer needs to buy in), & has upgraded Leopard 1s as far as is thought worthwhile. It heavily upgraded 170 M60s with Israeli help, with 120mm gun, more armour, new engine, & new FCS. Plans to upgrade more were cancelled because it cost such a large fraction of the cost of a new tank.

This is normal, for Turkey. It tends to stretch out the life of old equipment. M48s were upgraded & kept in service, as were F-4Es, F-5As were turned into DACT & LIFT trainers, etc. The skills & experience gained by local industry in these upgrades are now being applied to new developments.

The new tank is for the future.

 

[Waylander]

Swerve summed it up very well.

Turkey gained alot of knowledge from their upgrade programs (including the ones for the Leopard I & II).

They gained additional knowledge from the tech transfer of the M60 Sabra upgrade programe as well as from the cooperation with South Korea.

But they need new tanks and lots of them and I agree with them that it is much better for turkey to invest all the money into their own industry.

The Leopard Is are no longer competitive even with extensive upgrades and the Sabras are nice but expensive for what is basically still an old M60.

Not to talk of the M48s...

 

[kato]

(its own upgrade - it no longer needs to buy in)

Not to slag off Turkey here, but...

Arguably the armour upgrade is just another IBD Deisenroth package (an AMAP package anyway), the gun is simply switched for a Rheinmetall L55, the RWS occasionally seen in context is made by Rafael, and the FCS components and electronics from Aselsan are local re-builds or modifications of Raytheon electronics delivered in the 1990s (such as DNTSS - at least that's what Jane's seems to claim).

 

[carlgoon]

OK we have here Israeli tank upgrades, German-Israeli tank upgrades, license production of Korean tanks and American electronics. So where is the Turkish in all this? The labor is Turkish sure but all the IP is imported.

 

[Waylander]

So what? That's the best way to build up the experience and knowledge needed for such a project.
The ability to design and build a first class MBT doesn't come out of nothing. There are not that many countries out there which have decades of experience in designing and fielding modern tracked AFVs.
Look at other countries like Japan or South Korea. Their first indigineous MBTs relied heavily on imported IP and parts but their next ones much less.

If you just buy of the shelf you will never be able to field your own designs.
Turkey handles this project rather well IMO.

 

[kato]

Indeed, what's Turkish about it is the system integration. Important step. And the FCS components are produced locally this time, even if they may be evolved from stuff bought from Raytheon for Turkish AFVs.
In the end it's just the usual international game.

 

[kay_man]

the question is not whether they can make an advanced tank or not...........but whether they should invest so much in R&D and infrastructure.

the turkish tank will at-least cost 4 mil a piece or maybe more. but will turkey place such a big order when the tank corps needs to replace only the m-48, m-60s. (which are around 1000 in number).since they have spend so much money to upgrade the m-60s.

the israelis faced the same dilemma, whether to keep investing in merkava series or buy abrams from america which could have been more cost effective.

 

[Waylander]

1000 tanks is not a piece of cake. These are some serious numbers. And the Leopard 1s need to be replaced, too.

Although I doubt that they replace their inventory one by one it is still a big number compared to the number of tanks which gets build these days around the world.
Even during the cold war Leopard II production numbers were closer to 2000 than to 3000 tanks. Puts the numbers turkey needs into perspective.

And it's some serious money if it flows out of the country. Defenitely enough to warrant an indiginieous production.

The Sabra upgrade for their M60s is not cheap. They did it for the technology not because it was a bargain.

 

[Waylander]

To bring some pictures into this thread, here is one of the future upgrade of the Leopard 2s.

The IBD Evolution (or Rheinmetall Revolution) package is clearly visible. In this case ToT is indeed questionable as I doubt that IBD let go of it's AMAP technology easily.

We may very well see the new tank with several AMAP packages as well. Nothing bad with this though as the whole range of AMAP products sells well all over the world.

Nevertheless I really like the look of these upgrades with a big minus being the main sight which doesn't get relocated as in other armor upgrades for the Leo.

 

[swerve]

Indeed, what's Turkish about it is the system integration. Important step. And the FCS components are produced locally this time, even if they may be evolved from stuff bought from Raytheon for Turkish AFVs.

Exactly. Local system integration of components from various sources, including locally-built from foreign origins, is a long way along the path. Once you can do that, you can integrate new technology from other sources. That puts you in control. You can substitute suppliers.

The locally-built stuff also shows progress. It isn't all straightforward foreign designed kit licence-built for a specific project, but some of it is locally adapted from originally foreign models, developed through a succession of projects. That implies an ability to do more technology substitution.

In the end it's just the usual international game.

Absolutely. Major western firms do the same all the time.

 

[swerve]

the turkish tank will at-least cost 4 mil a piece or maybe more. but will turkey place such a big order when the tank corps needs to replace only the m-48, m-60s. (which are around 1000 in number).since they have spend so much money to upgrade the m-60s.

Turkey has only upgraded 170 M60, & has dropped plans to upgrade more.

 

[carlgoon]

the question is not whether they can make an advanced tank or not...........but whether they should invest so much in R&D and infrastructure.

the turkish tank will at-least cost 4 mil a piece or maybe more. but will turkey place such a big order when the tank corps needs to replace only the m-48, m-60s. (which are around 1000 in number).since they have spend so much money to upgrade the m-60s.

the israelis faced the same dilemma, whether to keep investing in merkava series or buy abrams from america which could have been more cost effective.

But even when you spend more buying home made tanks you save more by tax revenue and forex. It makes good sense for Israel and Turkey to build at home even if it appears to cost more in the initial purchase. Especially as both Israel and Turkey are constantly using their tanks on operations against the Palestinians and Kurds. They would have much higher repair bills than other tank uses so having a local tank factory makes this cost much cheaper.

 

[kay_man]

But even when you spend more buying home made tanks you save more by tax revenue and forex. It makes good sense for Israel and Turkey to build at home even if it appears to cost more in the initial purchase. Especially as both Israel and Turkey are constantly using their tanks on operations against the Palestinians and Kurds. They would have much higher repair bills than other tank uses so having a local tank factory makes this cost much cheaper.

What about licence production of some tank like the Leo-2?
That solves the constant maintainence problem+ It is a good tank +battle tested + Turkey does not have incur R&D cost.

 

[carlgoon]

What about licence production of some tank like the Leo-2?
That solves the constant maintainence problem+ It is a good tank +battle tested + Turkey does not have incur R&D cost.

Iznt that what they are doing with the Korean tank? Leopard 2 isn't really battle tested. No tank vs tank battles like Abrahams and Merkava.

 

[swerve]

The Korean K2 incorporates a lot of foreign technology. It looks as if Turkish plans for Altay are to do something similar to what the Koreans did, i.e. integrate a mix of foreign & indigenous components, but with a higher foreign proportion than in the K2. Gun from Rheinmetall (licence-built in Turkey), engine either MTU or Korean (licence-built), local FCS based on that they're putting in the Leopard 2NG, etc.

 

[Waylander]

What about licence production of some tank like the Leo-2?
That solves the constant maintainence problem+ It is a good tank +battle tested + Turkey does not have incur R&D cost.

You don't get the same experience in system integration and ToT compared to building your own tanks with foreign assistance.
And some considerable money is still spend for the license as well as for the first batches which will be build in the country of origin just like it was done with the Leopard IIE for example.

@Carlgoon
It's Abrams (the general) not Abraham (the president).

 

[[TR]AHMET]

First Altay MBT Photo

and other IDEF 2011 photos Türk Silahlý Kuvvetleri (TSK) Fotoðraf Galerisi - Turkish Military Photos

 

[hopeful73]

when can we see first prototype?
have you any info?

 

[Heruamarth]

According to the plan, first prototype is to be built this month, December 2011.

 

[Heruamarth]

Edit: Became irrevalant as post above has been deleted.
H.