New Russian Aircraft?

[gf0012-aust]

Well, in fact you are "US biased".
You took the Americans as "standard".

without wanting to get dragged into a justification of national merit.
I'd argue that when a country has publicly demonstrated 3 discrete family types of LO management in manned aircraft, 4 discrete family types in deployed unmanned aircraft assets, a first generation LO naval vessel, and a nation that has the most complex Elint/Comint/Sigint harvesting capability on the planet - then they are pretty well close to being used as a reference point.

until other nations actually trot out something for all to see (as is the standard held up to the americans) - then they are engaged in a publicity show without much merit.

Its when you add demonstrated generational capability across disparate platform types, and across force application dimensions, then there is a serious need to regard them as the baseline.

if we are going to impose "doubting thomas" logic on the US, then we certainly need to apply the same critical approval standards on everyone else - otherwise the bias could be said to be anti-american (and in my experience, a reverse application of bias is usually applied to the americans as soon as other countries are uncompetitive platform to platform.)

 

[SABRE]

This is what i meant about looking like an F22.

Have never seen that one. lol, it is F-22. Not even touch of Su-27/30/45 & MiG-1.44.

Here are some pics which seem to be more famous than others.

http://warfare.ru/0702ey70/update/jan2005/2/vityaz.jpg
http://img79.echo.cx/img79/79/pakfa5yl5vi.jpg
http://www.lockonfiles.com/modules/SITE IMAGES/RUS_5gen.jpg

Look at the 1st pic closely cause it resembles to the aircraft Iran is trying to develop (Project: Shafaq).

 

[Scorpion82]

Yes the russian PESA's are very good, Ibis in particular. However AESA's are more advanced in several ways and also in general more capable. Thats why there is a steady progression, worldwide, from MSA's to PESA's to AESA's. Ibis may be the most capable PESA out there (and I stress MAY) but the nature of PESA's means they lack LPI ability, and they lack en electronic atack capability. Anyways your statement indicates that your critisising me because you dont like what i said because your fundimentaly mistaken in the above statement. I never stated that the russian radars were bad only that the APG 77 was better, and it IS.

It is wrong to assume that non AESA radars haven't any kind of LPI. Of course AESA offers more capabilities in that direction, but that doesn't mean that other radars haven't LPI features. BTW the radar is called Irbis

The fact is that the russians are at 1st gen stealth, the americans are at 4th gen, what does that tell you? That tells me they have sweet *%$# all experiance with LO on a high performance platform.

Do you really think they will built something like the F-117, because it would be their first stealth aircraft? This argument isn't valid in that way.

 

[XaNDeR]

Scoprion is right , Russians might have not built any concrete stealth plane but they are developing and reaserching this area as long as the US are ... PAK-FA was planned ALONG time ago .. and it was not developed yet because of collapse of soviet union ... this time its different only because tehnology will be more advanced as it would have been then , It all depends on what Russia wants but if they want to counter F-22 I SEE NO PROBLEM at all , im pretty sure they can and even beat it in many areas.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

It is wrong to assume that non AESA radars haven't any kind of LPI. Of course AESA offers more capabilities in that direction, but that doesn't mean that other radars haven't LPI features. BTW the radar is called Irbis

Thanks my russian isnt that up to scratch...

What i was trying to point out is there is a significant difference in capabilities between AESA's and PESA's, including the vastly superior LPI capabilities. It seems you're in agreement.

Do you really think they will built something like the F-117, because it would be their first stealth aircraft? This argument isn't valid in that way.

LOL. No mate, I doubt they will build along those same lines, they might have a tad of trouble with the whole supermaneuverability and supercruise bit with the "ugly diomond" technieque. But it indicates the level of experiance the russians have with operational LO platforms, ie none. It took several generations of platforms and billions of dollars of funding to refine LO techniques to a point were a true VLO, high performance fighter could be produced. The russians on the other hand are still at step one with only a fraction of the funding. Somehow i doubt they will achieve a similar result as the F22 in terms of a combination of all aspect, multi frequency VLO and high performance fighter/interceptor. I have no doubt they will achieve the latter.

I dont think the PAk FA will look anything like an F117, but i doubt it will be anywere near as stealthy either. I know your a proponant of the "lets wait and see" mantra, even though the russians would have to leapfrog several generations of said technologies development to acheive anything like the capabilities of an F22. It would be borderline mirraculous if they did, even 20 years late. Personally i dont think its too much of a streatch to doubt that the russians are THAT ingenious.

 

[Scorpion82]

Thanks my russian isnt that up to scratch...

What i was trying to point out is there is a significant difference in capabilities between AESA's and PESA's, including the vastly superior LPI capabilities. It seems you're in agreement.

Yes I agree with this. One thing I still have difficulties to believe is the claimed detection range of 400 km against a 3 sqm target. The russians tend to announce capabilities which are often far away from reality.

LOL. No mate, I doubt they will build along those same lines, they might have a tad of trouble with the whole supermaneuverability and supercruise bit with the "ugly diomond" technieque. But it indicates the level of experiance the russians have with operational LO platforms, ie none. It took several generations of platforms and billions of dollars of funding to refine LO techniques to a point were a true VLO, high performance fighter could be produced. The russians on the other hand are still at step one with only a fraction of the funding. Somehow i doubt they will achieve a similar result as the F22 in terms of a combination of all aspect, multi frequency VLO and high performance fighter/interceptor. I have no doubt they will achieve the latter.

I dont think the PAk FA will look anything like an F117, but i doubt it will be anywere near as stealthy either. I know your a proponant of the "lets wait and see" mantra, even though the russians would have to leapfrog several generations of said technologies development to acheive anything like the capabilities of an F22. It would be borderline mirraculous if they did, even 20 years late. Personally i dont think its too much of a streatch to doubt that the russians are THAT ingenious.

The rest of the world has the advantage that they can learn from the US in terms of stealth. I don't know if the russians ever had a stealth demonstrator as it was the case with the europeans. I think it will go the way you described it. The PAK FA will have stealth, but probably inferior to that of the Raptor. I think its AESA won't have the same LPI features as well. In terms of raw performance the PAK FA might comes close or be even better than the Raptor.

 

[Scorpion82]

PAK-FA was planned ALONG time ago .. and it was not developed yet because of collapse of soviet union ...

That's not fully correct. The soviets planned two 5th gen fighters the MiG MFI was supposed to be a multirole fighter while the Su-47 was planned as an air superiority fighter. When the soviet union collapsed russia decided to buy only one plane. In the end the Su-47 and MiG MFI were classed as experimental aircraft and the russians decided that a new fighter should be developed. AFAIK the current PAK FA project was not started before 1999, with Sukhoi receiving the contract in 2002.

 

[JP Vieira]

Russian will make a 5th gen (or whatever you want to call it) fighter: the only question is when and that depends on a single factor: money.
Russia is assuming all the prerrogatives of a major player in the world affairs and an advanced fighter to cope with F-22s is a must.

 

[tphuang]

Yes I agree with this. One thing I still have difficulties to believe is the claimed detection range of 400 km against a 3 sqm target. The russians tend to announce capabilities which are often far away from reality.

According to the Chinese tests with Irbis, it was around 100 km against 0.1 sqm targets. Which works out to around 265 km against 5 sqm targets. Seems a lot more logical compared to 180 km range of Bars-M and 245 km of Zhuk-MSFE.

 

[Scorpion82]

According to the Chinese tests with Irbis, it was around 100 km against 0.1 sqm targets. Which works out to around 265 km against 5 sqm targets. Seems a lot more logical compared to 180 km range of Bars-M and 245 km of Zhuk-MSFE.

That's definitely more reasonable. BTW when did the Chinese test the Irbis?

 

[tphuang]

That's definitely more reasonable. BTW when did the Chinese test the Irbis?

There was an article a while on JDW about PLA testing Irbis, although the reduced range might be because they tested it on a su-30 instead of su-35. I don't know, but it seems like the Russians were definitely overstating the power of Irbis.

 

[funtz]

That irbis might ne heavier/larger requiring more power than what is used.like the EL/M 2032 on mig 21.

China might as well get the lisense for a few SU-35, if it is as good as they say, who needs AWAC and AEW platforms.

 

[Viktor]

This is what i meant about looking like an F22.

Ozzy no one jet knows nothing how about how will PAK-FA look like. No one! And no official pics had being relised so you can not compare some artist imagination picture with the F-22 and say Russia copied it! Does not make any sense.

Further you said Mig-1.44 wa flown only twice. Did you read that on wiki? Would you make 70M plane and drove it only twice! Mig-1.44 only later recived tehnological demonstrator status because at the time it was way expensive for Russian forces.

And do not have any ilusions Mig-1.44 is VLO platform, it could supercruise at Mach 1.8 and carry 8 R-77 in internal weapon bay. Russia is able to produce VLO it is only question in what numbers.

 

[Scorpion82]

Ozzy no one jet knows nothing how about how will PAK-FA look like. No one! And no official pics had being relised so you can not compare some artist imagination picture with the F-22 and say Russia copied it! Does not make any sense.

Further you said Mig-1.44 wa flown only twice. Did you read that on wiki? Would you make 70M plane and drove it only twice! Mig-1.44 only later recived tehnological demonstrator status because at the time it was way expensive for Russian forces.

And do not have any ilusions Mig-1.44 is VLO platform, it could supercruise at Mach 1.8 and carry 8 R-77 in internal weapon bay. Russia is able to produce VLO it is only question in what numbers.

Has the 1.44 ever demonstrated the mach 1.8 supercruise figure? And honestly look at this aircraft it doesn't look anyhow stalthy at all. In the end it is irrelevant to discuss this, as the aircraft in question is the PAK FA now.

 

[funtz]

PAK FA, I think that is the name of the whole complex responsible with the creation of the stealth aircraft project and associated technology.

No one really knows about the soviet projects like the MiG1.44 (and what ever else never saw the light of day) except the soviets themselves and they never told much, sadly now they are the Russians and still not in the mood to talk, except about the radars -

I have never even seen any thing about US radars that remotely talks about the detection/tracking range.

I think the Russians just try to play mind games with the western governments, still the real credit for B 2 spirit, F117, F 22 goes to the soviets and the propaganda machine, they were good, i think Mr. Putin must have employed the lot of them to run his election campaigns.

Who knows what will the Russian scientists and engineers will come out with, one thing is for sure though they will have to pump in all the money and human resources they can, this technology will be absorbed in many other bomber, fighter, UCAV projects, if they can afford it the costs are justified, after all right now the F-35 market has no competition.

 

[Grand Danois]

What platforms have the Russians fielded that feature complex stealth technologies? By that I mean demonstration of incorporation into the the design from the beginning and serial manufacture.

Haven't noted any myself, but then again, I haven't been looking that vigouriously.

 

[Scorpion82]

PAK FA, I think that is the name of the whole complex responsible with the creation of the stealth aircraft project and associated technology.

PAK FA is just the project designation of the RuAF for the new 5th generation fighter developed by Sukhoi. It's very much the same as JSF or ATF. The actual designation has not been revealed now, though it is said the Sukhois internal designation is or at least was T-50. Not long ago I-21 (Fighter 21) was mentioned as well, but that seems not to be current.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Ozzy no one jet knows nothing how about how will PAK-FA look like. No one! And no official pics had being relised so you can not compare some artist imagination picture with the F-22 and say Russia copied it! Does not make any sense..

actually, provisional sketches were available. according to that data it was closely resembling an S47 but with traditional canted wings. There is a comprehensive article in Soviet Secret Fighters Since 1945 by Butler and Gordon using russian source material

Further you said Mig-1.44 wa flown only twice. Did you read that on wiki? Would you make 70M plane and drove it only twice! Mig-1.44 only later recived tehnological demonstrator status because at the time it was way expensive for Russian forces. .

Two public flights claimed by Rotislav Belyakov - the program manager. However the same source says that it was a maximum of 50 hrs all up including taxiing tests. Max altitude of 2000m tested. Refer to above

And do not have any ilusions Mig-1.44 is VLO platform, it could supercruise at Mach 1.8 and carry 8 R-77 in internal weapon bay. Russia is able to produce VLO it is only question in what numbers.

No its not. A look at the schematics and available photographs shows that its clearly NOT a VLO aircraft. An impressive looking plane, but its about as VLO as a blended wing F15 would be.

 

[funtz]

Well the US also has produced several technology demonstrators like the MiG 1.44 and the SU 47, I am sure the new project will receive more funding and human resources than some technology demonstrator, after all the Russians need to close the gap that followed the soviet collapse.

As I was not involved with the US stealth program at any stage it will be very hard for me to tell exactly how difficult is the development of this technology and will the Russian scientists and engineers will be able to meet the 2015-2020 time line, as far as my opinion is concerned if they can manage they money they will achieve the goal, then again what do I know.

 

[Grand Danois]

Nah, it's not like I think that Russian scientists and engineers are unable to make a VLO fighter.

It's just that in the three decades plus the US have had VLO as a major design parameter it has been evident in several platforms. (They'll enter the fourth decade Dec. 1. this year, as applied tech. First flight of Have Blue. )

So if the Russians have been so latent on VLO the past decades, there must be some evidence of it being applied.