New major military powers

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crobato

New Member
Globalization means there is no economic hegemon. Rather we have what I call centers of production and grown, and each is intertwined to another center. Globalization in fact makes conventional military obsolete because war simply damages or taxes that network, so that there is no economic benefit in initiating that war. War throughout history has been caused predominantly by economic reasons (the other is religious and ideological, but that's another issue). No one goes to war knowing they would lose their shirt. Its traditionally been a battle for land and resources. A war between any of the economic global pillars will sink the economic boat for everyone, including non participants and no matter where they are.

This alone makes the conventional large scale military obsolete, since the only other entities that can sustain such militaries are fellow global pillars while the economic consequences makes it impossible by motivation for each to declare war upon each other. Furthermore, costly militaries are a drain of resources when the true competition now lies elsewhere; competition in the economic and practical technology sphere. In other words, we fight our wars not in the battlefield, but in the mind and market share. That is the lesson of modern Japan. It is not important to be a military power no longer, but to be an economic one.

The second paradigm that is happening is the evolution of the democratic welfare state. There is a dichotomy between empire and welfare, and the British---as well as the rest of Europe---have long made that decision. They voted to be a welfare state, rather than be empires. In essence, the British Empire was given up by default. Japan has already trended to that state, Russia is on its way, and I predict, so will China and India in the decades to come. Once a significant amount of wealth is accumulated in both countries, much of that wealth will go to welfare. Countries like China, will always consider its greatest threats to be internal---a hungry population. Thus national security and welfare goes hand in hand. If you keep your mouths fed, you have a stable nation. In the US, we have an ideological clash to those who wish it to be an imperial nation (mainly Republicans) and those who want it to be welfare nation (mainly democrats).

There are more changes coming in the future. One I see is the coming of the Corporate Nation. Already this is what China is, and they should just change its name from the People's Republic to China Incorporated.. The whole nation runs like a giant business. While officials are not accountable through a democratic process, they are accountable for their economic performance, complete with stats and economic figures per region, which makes them no different from any corporate blue and white shirt. And that goes up to the top. The CCP itself acts like a boardroom, and its leaders are elected no differently from any corporate boardroom.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
merocaine, economic growth is increased production. China's economic growth means they are continually producing more each year. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "turn its impressive economic growth into productivity growth".
A fair part of Chinas economic growth up to this point could be described as taking up slack. A huge number of underemployed rural workers have moved into unskilled factory work. Productivity per worker, & per head of population, has increased immensely, but largely by putting people into productive work who previously weren't producing much, if anything. To grow to Western (or Korean, or Japanese) levels of income per head, the people already in the industrial economy will have to become much more productive, in the sense of producing more per hour they work.

That's started to happen. In fact, it's been happening for several years. But there's a long way to go.

There are different measures of productivity. e.g. France produced more per hour worked than the USA for many years, but the average worker worked fewer hours (long holidays, shorter working week), & fewer people worked (earlier retirement, more non-working housewives, higher unemployment, etc). So with the USA = 100, French productivity was something like (approximate - I can't remember exact figures & haven't looked them up) -
Per hour worked 105-110
Per worker 85-90
Per head of total population - 70
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Economic growth is not mutually exclusive. The picture being painted here is that if one guys goes up, the other guy goes down. That's not the case. When one guy goes forward, it tends to bring the other guys along, and the collective momentum of all the participants help each other. Japan's recent economic resurgence, for example, has a lot in connection with China's. ....
Absolutely! A lot of the "So-and-so is going up! Oh no!" talk wrongly assumes that the world economy is a zero-sum game, i.e. there's only so much to go around. The old mercantilist thing.

Japan is shipping vast quantities of machinery to China these days, & hi-tech components to be assembled into products in China, some of which are then sold in Japan, cheaper than they used to cost when assembled there. China & Japan both richer.
 

Snayke

New Member
Economic growth in one economy can affect another only if they are linked through globalisation. Simply stating that economic growth itself has a ripple effect is incorrect. Those who do not take part in globalisation cannot reap the benefits. That's what I was referring to. >_>
 

swerve

Super Moderator
To get back on topic:

new (or reviving) military powers should be looked for in countries in the following categories -

Countries which have long-standing military issues (ambitions or perceived threats) which they have not previously been able to do much about because of lack of resources, but which are getting richer.

Countries which are able to afford powerful military forces, but have not previously felt the need for them, which begin to feel such a need.

Anyone want to suggest countries which fit either category?
 

Snayke

New Member
China and India. xD

Perhaps Japan due to a possible relaxing of restrictions? Most of the emerging powers in my opinion are in Asia.
 

ainanup23

New Member
China and India. xD

Perhaps Japan due to a possible relaxing of restrictions? Most of the emerging powers in my opinion are in Asia.
Japan is in a major way responsible for the economic revival of China, becouse it contributed to China`s economic and technological march. Japan got a huge unchallenged market in the neighbourhood for it`s goods and services The western nations were the late comers Japan`s pacifixt views in defence preparedness and over dependence on US has seen it not being a major player in ASIA. But it still has the edge in term of technologies but lacks the will to go along unlike India and China who have developed their own global identities ,
 

Snayke

New Member
I was more referring to the possibility of future Japanese governments agreeing to relax restrictions on their military capabilities. We've already seen some small calls, which can only get bigger with time. Japan has the economic power to sustain a much larger military. Although they do have a capable military at this moment, I believe with time it can turn larger and become somewhat of a regional power. That is only if the Japanese ease their own restrictions. The potential is there.
 

ainanup23

New Member
I was more referring to the possibility of future Japanese governments agreeing to relax restrictions on their military capabilities. We've already seen some small calls, which can only get bigger with time. Japan has the economic power to sustain a much larger military. Although they do have a capable military at this moment, I believe with time it can turn larger and become somewhat of a regional power. That is only if the Japanese ease their own restrictions. The potential is there.
Building military muscle depends on many things apart from economic power it depends on political will, and the citizen must be able to pshylogically absorb loss of life in the face of any conflict where there will be certainly loss of life. the US had to withdrawn troops from vietnam as the nation could not mentally absorb the vast loss of lives. Political will, technological advancement, citizen acceptability, and economic muscle all contribute to a nation ability to take part in any conflict. What is missing in Japan`s case is political will and how the citizen will react to use of force.
 

mrtp-33

Banned Member
No African power can claim a title of major military power.
whats wrong with south-africa ??

iam a bit surprised that nobody mentioned about South-africa.

i can understand that it is a peaceful country, the country of nelson mandela, but still.....


:confused:
 

swerve

Super Moderator
whats wrong with south-africa ??

iam a bit surprised that nobody mentioned about South-africa.

i can understand that it is a peaceful country, the country of nelson mandela, but still.....

:confused:
It's not been mentioned because it is not a major military power, and has no immediate prospect of becoming one.
 

nyrhex

New Member
what about Israel?

i know this will sound like im bisad couse im Israeli but why isnt Israel being considerd as a possible major power?

i mean, you people mention economy, the Israeli economy is one of the most stable in the world, Israel is only getting richer.

Israel is one of the only 8 nuclear powers, with estimations that put her in between the 5th and the 3rd place as far as nuclear stockpiles. and it has missiles that cover Asia, Africa and Europe, and can hit targets in the east cost of the U.S.

the Israeli air force is one of the best in the world, some Israeli pilots train U.S pilots. and right now there is a deal between the U.S and some arab nations, 20bill worth of arms are to be sold to them, and Israel is using this to get some for her, one of the weapons that will be sold to Israel is the F-22, makeing Israel the second stealth power.

so why isnt Israel even an option?:unknown
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Israel is for sure THE regional power in the middle east but it is by no means a global player and just doesn't has the resources to reach such a status.

With a population of only 6,5 million people and a GDP of 140 billion US$ it has by no means the ability to expand its forces (be it manpower or equipment) to project global power.

It already spends more than 7% of its GDP for defense and has a conscript army (3 years men and 21 month women). Add to this the big military aid of the US and you see that Israel already operates close to its possible maximum strength.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
and can hit targets in the east cost of the U.S.
Israel does not have ICBM's.

the Israeli air force is one of the best in the world, some Israeli pilots train U.S pilots.
The Israelis co-operate in DACT - they do not train US pilots.

one of the weapons that will be sold to Israel is the F-22, makeing Israel the second stealth power.
The US has said clearly and unambiguously in the last 7 days that the F-22 will not be sold to any foreign powers

Get your facts right before you post again or you are going to have a very short shelf life in here.

We have no problem with patriotic fervour, but we have little time for people who do not research basic facts and then present opinion as truth.
 

nyrhex

New Member
Israel does not have ICBM's.
well, in the english wiki it doesnt say it but the Jericho 3 is assumed to be able to hit targets in the eastern part of the U.S.

i did not mean to say Israeli pilots train U.S pilots, i cant find it now but i remmember a story about F-15 pilots trianing some U.S pilots, i cant supply with a link couse as i said i cant find it again.

im sorry for saying the U.S will sell, i ment could sell. im sorry for stateing an assumption as fact. i belive you have an expression about the word assume but i dont remmember how it goes.

annyways thanks for the worning and the info.
 
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crobato

New Member
Japan is in a major way responsible for the economic revival of China, becouse it contributed to China`s economic and technological march. Japan got a huge unchallenged market in the neighbourhood for it`s goods and services The western nations were the late comers Japan`s pacifixt views in defence preparedness and over dependence on US has seen it not being a major player in ASIA. But it still has the edge in term of technologies but lacks the will to go along unlike India and China who have developed their own global identities ,

Japan was actually quite a bit slow compared to Western nations. Germany and the US was well ahead into investing in China and setting up plants there. Figure out why German designed cars and trucks dominated the market for well over 2 decades.

Having a big market in China contributed to Japan's economic revival. So everything worked out pretty well. The true relationship of China with Japan is not with the Japanese government, but the true powers in charge---the corporations.

Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and the overseas Chinese were the spearheads into investing in China.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
well, in the english wiki it doesnt say it but the Jericho 3 is assumed to be able to hit targets in the eastern part of the U.S.
I suggest that unless absolutely desperate, that you not use Wiki as a source for reference. It is notoriously unreliable and innacurate, and as anyone can edit the articles it is subject to abuse. www.missilethreat.com is a far better site to use and with greater credibility.

The Jericho 3 is not due for service until late 2008 - and there is nothing concrete on it available. It's also an IRBM.

i did not mean to say Israeli pilots train U.S pilots, i cant find it now but i remmember a story about F-15 pilots trianing some U.S pilots, i cant supply with a link couse as i said i cant find it again.
DACT is training by association. There is a thread in here that is a sticky reference source. Its worth reading so that you have a clearer understanding of why its conducted.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1157
 

nyrhex

New Member
I suggest that unless absolutely desperate, that you not use Wiki as a source for reference. It is notoriously unreliable and innacurate, and as anyone can edit the articles it is subject to abuse. www.missilethreat.com is a far better site to use and with greater credibility.

The Jericho 3 is not due for service until late 2008 - and there is nothing concrete on it available. It's also an IRBM.



DACT is training by association. There is a thread in here that is a sticky reference source. Its worth reading so that you have a clearer understanding of why its conducted.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1157
thanks for the info :)
 

metro

New Member
Israel does not have ICBM's.
Shavit7, could be tweaked/used/classified as one, right?

The US has said clearly and unambiguously in the last 7 days that the F-22 will not be sold to any foreign powers.
How do things like sims work in terms of nations like AUS, IL, JP, training in them for a "what if scenario." Or is sim training (modified) off the table as well?

I agree, Israel won't get it until or unless Australia (#1 option IMO) opens the door for its export.

all the best!
 
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