Navy Sets World Record With Incredible, Sci-Fi Weapon

Quiller

New Member
Na if they build a ship around the system it would probably be just a cruiser or heavy destroyer. Biggest problem would be power. But this thing is 15 years off so......

Still think they should work on a 12-14 inch naval gun. Dude i talked to said you could build one that had a range of almost 300 mi. without rocket assist. 200 at least. Plan is to increase the length of the projectile and barrel and some other stuff.

Then you wouldnt have to worry about creating something that can take what 400,000g's yet still fit in a tiny projectile.
Don't consider a supersonic railgun projectile to be shaped like a shell, that is like a bullet or even a sharp cone. Consider other shapes, for example, a triangular or arrowhead shape, which is designed to gain range partly due to aerodynamic forces after being jettisoned from the "barrel" of the railgun.

I've seen drawings showing slim, faceted triangle projectiles. Imagine if you will a dense flattened triangle fabricated in part from, say, depleted uranium. Such a shape could conceivably ride its own shockwave to significantly greater ranges, much like a surfboard. These same drawings show very small fins that pop up on the upper and lower surface to give some stability. Not sure if I can post a photo... if I figure a way I will post it.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
I am actually not talking about stationary heat signature but i am talking about the burst signature that happens seconds before releasing a series of shots.
Obviously for the system to come online and " summon" the amount of energy needed to deliver its series of shots it will sort of charge the weapon.
Similar to the Russian heat-blooms from their old boomer's when they are about to leave the harbor for patrol back in the old cold war days when the US was able to see by satellite which boomer was about to set sail based upon their increasing heat signature, now perhaps i am wrong here but i could imagine that seconds before the rail gun becomes operational in terms of actually engaging a target that it would light up like a candle in the dark on a IR/Heat Radar/Sat.
I assume that you are referring to starting up extra generators to supply the power, which would probably happen several minutes before the weapon is fired, not seconds (they need to get up to speed and stabilized before you draw power). However, if the railguns are on a vessel designed with all electric power transmission, they could also draw power from the propulsion system, in which case all you would see is the vessel slowing slightly. It is also possible that there may be extra power available from the main turbines, in which case you might detect a slight drop in the exhaust temperature instead.

As for the weapon itself, it is not like a scifi movie/anime weapon that glows as power builds up. Power is accumulated in a capacitor bank or compulsator located somewhere below deck where it cannot be observed, then dumped into the railgun in a couple milliseconds (say 1,000,000 amps at 10,000 volts for 0.005 seconds). There will most likely be an intense flash as the plasma arc behind/u] the projectile exits the barrel, but it will be small and very short lived compared to the muzzle flash of a conventional weapon. It will however include a substantial EM spike, like a lightning bolt.
 

Quiller

New Member
I assume that you are referring to starting up extra generators to supply the power, which would probably happen several minutes before the weapon is fired, not seconds (they need to get up to speed and stabilized before you draw power). However, if the railguns are on a vessel designed with all electric power transmission, they could also draw power from the propulsion system, in which case all you would see is the vessel slowing slightly. It is also possible that there may be extra power available from the main turbines, in which case you might detect a slight drop in the exhaust temperature instead.

As for the weapon itself, it is not like a scifi movie/anime weapon that glows as power builds up. Power is accumulated in a capacitor bank or compulsator located somewhere below deck where it cannot be observed, then dumped into the railgun in a couple milliseconds (say 1,000,000 amps at 10,000 volts for 0.005 seconds). There will most likely be an intense flash as the plasma arc behind/u] the projectile exits the barrel, but it will be small and very short lived compared to the muzzle flash of a conventional weapon. It will however include a substantial EM spike, like a lightning bolt.


One quick solution: fire three rounds in 30 seconds, then do what the ship's of WW2 did.... aggressively zig zag. Changing direction abruptly will allow evasion of slow retaliartory ship's guns, perhaps even anti-ship missiles. Depends on the defensive abilities of the ship as well,
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Btw just thinking about it, to quote my own words here, as i said about A2A missiles that can give chase to a moving object, there would be one other possible way for the rail gun to achieve a similar effect and that is using the same strategy as the Goalkeeper, firing a rapid succession of shots at multiple directions that would deny a target the ability to evade incoming rounds but how far this would be possible i dunno.
In order to achieve the required rate of fire a railgun CIWS would require multiple barrels, and probably look very similar to the Goalkeeper. The difference is that the higher velocity reduces the amount you have to lead the target by. Other changes such a better penetration, longer range, etc. would actually be determined in the design phase. If they are not needed they could just make the weapon smaller.
So the real question here is will the rail gun be able to become the next best thing to hit targets? or will it only be used versus stationary targets and as finishing off tool?
Because given the limitations so far i believe that the rail gun will have its great benefits but without backup of conventional systems it might still be a fancy toy.

Example if the rail is going to be used to hit a big surface combatant then a guiding computer might be able to plug some solutions that would allow the system to track or predict which evasive actions a target might have and anticipate on it by firing a series of rounds at those locations enabling the gun to sort of catch the target in transit from location a to b (More or less like a sniper trying to hit a moving target or like a goal keeper trying to intercept a sea skimming object) also a question i have does the energy charge fired by the RailG give of a destructive AOE because then it does not have to be a direct hit but a indirect hit could have the same effect.

Now perhaps i am talking to Sci-fi here but as has been mentioned the rail gun hits with great kinetic power however would that not bring back the days of high armored ships? so effectively nullifier the effects of a direct hit? and what else does the rail gun bring into combat? as i could see that electrical charge carry some sort of Emp effect upon the target.
There are several issues that need to be addressed here:
  1. A railgun does not fire an energy charge, it is a type of linear motor that is used to accelerate a projectile. The electrical charge is confined to the rails and does not project beyond the end of the barrel, or become part of the projectile. There is no possibility of an EMP effect except through to action of some exotic ammunition which works just as well in a conventional cannon.
  2. Higher velocities extend the direct fire range (the range at which you are penetrating the sides of the target instead of the top (indirect fire)), and minimize the time of flight and target lead.
  3. The compatibility of railguns and electronic guidance, and even fuses, is debatable because of the high power electric arc that provides propulsion can potentially fry any. It also makes conventional explosive fillings unlikely.
  4. Terminal ballistics may be a problem without the use of fuse munitions. New fuses allow conventional weapons to detonate after penetrating X number of barriers. Railgun ammunition looks to either offer massive penetration (potentially over penetrating) or stops at the first barrier. Conventional munitions may be more capable of depositing more of damage in the guts of the target.
  5. Given the high penetration, reliance on kinetic energy as the only damage mechanism, and possibly limited terminal effectiveness, unarmored hulls may actually offer greater protection by allowing the projectile to exit the ship with maximum retained energy.
 

SpartanSG

New Member
[*] The compatibility of railguns and electronic guidance, and even fuses, is debatable because of the high power electric arc that provides propulsion can potentially fry any. It also makes conventional explosive fillings unlikely.
[*] Terminal ballistics may be a problem without the use of fuse munitions. New fuses allow conventional weapons to detonate after penetrating X number of barriers. Railgun ammunition looks to either offer massive penetration (potentially over penetrating) or stops at the first barrier. Conventional munitions may be more capable of depositing more of damage in the guts of the target.
[*] Given the high penetration, reliance on kinetic energy as the only damage mechanism, and possibly limited terminal effectiveness, unarmored hulls may actually offer greater protection by allowing the projectile to exit the ship with maximum retained energy. [/list]
Great post.

Just wanted to add on that if the scientists are able to develop guidance for rail-gun munitions (such as the much touted AHEAD guided munitions from the 90s) that can survive the firing process, than it will truly be a revolutionary weapon.
 

Beatmaster

New Member
In order to achieve the required rate of fire a railgun CIWS would require multiple barrels, and probably look very similar to the Goalkeeper. The difference is that the higher velocity reduces the amount you have to lead the target by. Other changes such a better penetration, longer range, etc. would actually be determined in the design phase. If they are not needed they could just make the weapon smaller.

There are several issues that need to be addressed here:
  1. A railgun does not fire an energy charge, it is a type of linear motor that is used to accelerate a projectile. The electrical charge is confined to the rails and does not project beyond the end of the barrel, or become part of the projectile. There is no possibility of an EMP effect except through to action of some exotic ammunition which works just as well in a conventional cannon.
  2. Higher velocities extend the direct fire range (the range at which you are penetrating the sides of the target instead of the top (indirect fire)), and minimize the time of flight and target lead.
  3. The compatibility of railguns and electronic guidance, and even fuses, is debatable because of the high power electric arc that provides propulsion can potentially fry any. It also makes conventional explosive fillings unlikely.
  4. Terminal ballistics may be a problem without the use of fuse munitions. New fuses allow conventional weapons to detonate after penetrating X number of barriers. Railgun ammunition looks to either offer massive penetration (potentially over penetrating) or stops at the first barrier. Conventional munitions may be more capable of depositing more of damage in the guts of the target.
  5. Given the high penetration, reliance on kinetic energy as the only damage mechanism, and possibly limited terminal effectiveness, unarmored hulls may actually offer greater protection by allowing the projectile to exit the ship with maximum retained energy.
Just for your information, the electrical charge i revered to is a substitute for the so called bullet the railgun fires i just named it EC as i do not know what to call it....

That being said reading your post which is good btw there is another question i want to ask.
How does mother nature react on the rail gun? As i can see natural events influence the effectiveness of the weapon specially on the longer ranges for example a big thunder storm or some sort of natural weather event might limit the effectiveness of the gun as in the end it is some sort of energy that hits the target.
:D
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Just for your information, the electrical charge i revered to is a substitute for the so called bullet the railgun fires i just named it EC as i do not know what to call it....

That being said reading your post which is good btw there is another question i want to ask.
How does mother nature react on the rail gun? As i can see natural events influence the effectiveness of the weapon specially on the longer ranges for example a big thunder storm or some sort of natural weather event might limit the effectiveness of the gun as in the end it is some sort of energy that hits the target.
Well, if it is not firing a projectile it is not a railgun, but something else. Could you supply a link to a site that explains to how this would work, or even to just a better description so I can figure out what it really is? I would guess you are talking about some kind of plasma based weapon, in which case it would be a very short ranged weapon as it would dissipate rapidly due to interaction with the atmosphere and repulsion between the ionized particles.

For a projectile fired from a railgun, weather will have about the same effect as on a railgun projectile as a conventional gun with the same time of flight (i.e. if it takes time T for the projectile to reach the target and there is a crosswind of velocity v, the projectile impact point will be move T*v downwind).
 

Beatmaster

New Member
Well, if it is not firing a projectile it is not a railgun, but something else. Could you supply a link to a site that explains to how this would work, or even to just a better description so I can figure out what it really is? I would guess you are talking about some kind of plasma based weapon, in which case it would be a very short ranged weapon as it would dissipate rapidly due to interaction with the atmosphere and repulsion between the ionized particles.

For a projectile fired from a railgun, weather will have about the same effect as on a railgun projectile as a conventional gun with the same time of flight (i.e. if it takes time T for the projectile to reach the target and there is a crosswind of velocity v, the projectile impact point will be move T*v downwind).
Lmao...forgive me but it seems that you do not understand what i mean whahaha:D
Sorry ...just having fun here.
Ok simply said i do not know if its some sort of projectile, or a energy charge so to give it a name i called it a electrical charge because i just do not know what else i should call it.

Cheers
 

Quiller

New Member
BTW folks, there are some technological issues with railguns that have not been discussed here yet. Among others is the fact that railguns produce their own EMP event. That means the ship's general electronics will have to be well-shielded from the EMP every launch produces. I only mention this because this increases the cost of railgun installation and use.... and putting one on an existing naval platform is unlikely. As one of you mentioned earlier... the platform will probably be built for and around the railgun itself. The shielding issue by itself would probably require this. And... let's talk "real world" here. That shielding probably needs to be around much of the ship's general spaces, because that same EMP burst could burn out personal electronics devices of the crew... laptops, tablets, cell phones, etc. Anything with a chip. Shielding the railgun itself isn't useful because the EMP is part of the "muzzle flash" so to speak.

Second interesting issue no one has mentioned: it is highly useful, and therefore very likely, that any production railgun would include a mechanism for what has been called "pre-injection." This is accelerating the projectile to Mach 1 or better BEFORE THE PROJECTILE ENTERS THE RAILGUN ITSELF. Sorry for the capital letters, but needed to make the point. Using the magnetics to launch a projectile from rest is extremely energy consumptive, leads to extensive ablation of the rails and other metal parts, and can result in tack-welding of the projectile or its sabot to the rails. That event would probably cause what the space industry called a "catastrophic failure," fancy jargon for lots of fireworks and crew deaths,

By injecting or propelling a projectile to Mach1 speeds as it enters the breech of the rail section allows more efficient use of propelling electrical energy, avoids the tackweld problem, and reduces the wear-and-tear on the rails, projectile, and associated element. The most efficient way to do this probably would be using compressed gas. Nitrogen comes to mind, though compressed air might be a cheaper alternative if workable. (Steam could accomplish the same thing... but water would play all heck with the railgun part.)

Third thought..... the projectile probably will sit in front of an armature, a conductive element that is part of the entire physics of railguns. Think of the armature as a sort of sabot actually propelling the projectile, rather than the projectile itself being part of the whole conductive thing. The projectile itself might be some sort of carbon material with embedded conductive metals like oxygen-free copper. Carbon has lubricating properties that could reduce rail damage to allow a greater number of launches before rail replacement.

Anyway... food for thought and comment gents and ladies.
 
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My2Cents

Active Member
BTW folks, there are some technological issues with railguns that have not been discussed here yet. Among others is the fact that railguns produce their own EMP event. That means the ship's general electronics will have to be well-shielded from the EMP every launch produces. I only mention this because this increases the cost of railgun installation and use.... and putting one on an existing naval platform is unlikely. As one of you mentioned earlier... the platform will probably be built for and around the railgun itself. The shielding issue by itself would probably require this. And... let's talk "real world" here. That shielding probably needs to be around much of the ship's general spaces, because that same EMP burst could burn out personal electronics devices of the crew... laptops, tablets, cell phones, etc. Anything with a chip. Shielding the railgun itself isn't useful because the EMP is part of the "muzzle flash" so to speak.
The EMP from the muzzle is relatively minor because the arc and magnetic fields will not extend much beyond the rails. The shielding on the gun is supplied by the structure holding it together (when firing the rails repel each other). A simple structure like a muzzle break could block the rest, unless you are directly in front of the barrel (and therefore have more important concerns)

The shielding you want for the rest of the vessel is a Faraday Cage, and is already built into the vessels structure for EMCON purposes. What’s the point of locking down all your systems if someone off duty composing a message to his family on his iPhone can give you away.
Second interesting issue no one has mentioned: it is highly useful, and therefore very likely, that any production railgun would include a mechanism for what has been called "pre-injection." This is accelerating the projectile to Mach 1 or better BEFORE THE PROJECTILE ENTERS THE RAILGUN ITSELF. Sorry for the capital letters, but needed to make the point. Using the magnetics to launch a projectile from rest is extremely energy consumptive, leads to extensive ablation of the rails and other metal parts, and can result in tack-welding of the projectile or its sabot to the rails. That event would probably cause what the space industry called a "catastrophic failure," fancy jargon for lots of fireworks and crew deaths,

By injecting or propelling a projectile to Mach1 speeds as it enters the breech of the rail section allows more efficient use of propelling electrical energy, avoids the tackweld problem, and reduces the wear-and-tear on the rails, projectile, and associated element. The most efficient way to do this probably would be using compressed gas. Nitrogen comes to mind, though compressed air might be a cheaper alternative if workable. (Steam could accomplish the same thing... but water would play all heck with the railgun part.)
That is 1980’s technology, where you need to build a cannon on the end of a cannon, it is just too big to be practical. They do it now using pulse shaping technology, something that was not available back then (it is an outgrowth of variable speed DC motor R&D, which in turn was a byproduct of developments to deal with a major electric vehicle design issue). Basically you start out at low power, then increase the power level as the projectile accelerates. This greatly reduces the tendency for tack-welding as well as reducing the cooling and erosion issues with the rails. But not to the extent that they can claim to have solved those problems.

The technology used back then for accelerating the projectiles is called a light gas cannon, a 2 stage device that used a piston in a cannon barrel instead of a projectile to compress helium or hydrogen gas until a predetermined pressure was reach, at which point either a rupture disk opened releasing the gas into the main barrel, or a shear pin breaks releasing the projectile, and the gas propels the projectile down the barrel. Why use such a complicated arrangement? Because the average velocity molecules in a gas is proportional the square root of the temperature divided by the molecular weight. The main components of the propellant gases in a conventional cannon is carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxide (mw=28 and 30), so hydrogen gas (mw=2) moves about 3.8x faster, so the pressure in the barrel drops slower. What this boils down to is if the peak acceleration is that, compared to a high velocity cannon of the same barrel length, a light gas cannon, the average acceleration for the light gas cannon is something like 2x higher, with 50% increase in muzzle velocity, and even more is possible because you can use longer barrels that for the conventional cannon.
Third thought..... the projectile probably will sit in front of an armature, a conductive element that is part of the entire physics of railguns. Think of the armature as a sort of sabot actually propelling the projectile, rather than the projectile itself being part of the whole conductive thing. The projectile itself might be some sort of carbon material with embedded conductive metals like oxygen-free copper. Carbon has lubricating properties that could reduce rail damage to allow a greater number of launches before rail replacement.
Railgun projectiles either have to be non-conducting or carried in a non-conducting sabot. The armature is as you noted on the back, but in many designs it is little more than a strip of metal that vaporizes to create an electric arc that functions as the armature. The projectiles will probably be tungsten or depleted uranium for maximum density and energy retention, and are likely to have a ceramic coating to reduce heat transfer from passing through the atmosphere, i.e. much like an APDSFS, except with a skirt instead of fins that would burn off too quickly at those velocities.
 
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