Moving Forward with Maximizing New Zealands Defense Force Assets

[RubiconNZ]

My other suggestion, which has been made in another thread is that the ADF/NZDF need a base with airfield/port (at a basic level) out into the pacific, I believe Niue was a mentioned. this base would be used as a hub for pacific patrols and a military/disaster logistics hub..

I thought it was a cracker idea then and I do now, biggest risk would be losing it in a cyclone on the island itself, but a forward supply base would make excellent sense while providing even just a little economic stimulus for the chosen island not to mention the benefits of having one or two of the depots amongst the pacific island chain, in any needed situation

 

[Todjaeger]

My other suggestion, which has been made in another thread is that the ADF/NZDF need a base with airfield/port (at a basic level) out into the pacific, I believe Niue was a mentioned. this base would be used as a hub for pacific patrols and a military/disaster logistics hub..

Forward basing, good point, hadn't thought about ways that could be used to assist/expand capabilities of the NZDF. Kind of surprised it didn't occur to me earlier given how much the US does it...

Would/could NZ pre-position supplies in different territories that would be "useful". Much like the US had expected to do with Warplan:Orange from 1923. If I'm remembering correctly it was supposed to have ammo & refueling dumps scattered in different areas of the South Pacific, specifically to assist in a fight against Japan. Might be a little off about the date, but if I think the general concept would work.

Some forward bases/depots with some pre-positioned equipment & supplies, fuel for aircraft, vehicles and ships, containerized food, supplies, etc that can be used to respond to an emergency on the island or be able to rapidly be shipped to another location if needed.

 

[Wooki]

If the RAN or RNZN goes to Austal and says we want a Cat/Tri that can lift a 500-750t payload out to x miles and return empty without refuelling, they will come up with something. I hope

Its not a hope, it would be done. The key for you as the buyer is not to make unreasonable demands. The only thing limiting that type of build is the size of the facility.

Toby, If you'll recall; I chose the 2000NM figure as an academic capability comparison between an 8 unit C130j-30 fleet and a 1000 DWT fast ferry with a speed of 40 knots (Just as you did with a smaller range).

In short, from that comparison I think you need 2 v/ls to make it worthwhile and allow you to reduce your c130 fleet. Or, one 1000DWT ferry per 4 C130 aircraft

As to whether you would want to reduce your c130 fleet to retain capability for other operations is another question. Certainly running a fast ferry is more economical while giving you comparable capability then eight c130 transport aircraft. Provided (that is) you stick to maritime centric operations.

No one mentioned an existing v/l, just what is possible.

So if you strolled up to the front desk of Austal (for instance) and asked them to build a ferry with the above specs. They would in all probability be able to do it with existing technologies.

This also goes back to a valid reason for injecting cash into NZ businesses like Mace Engineering with their engine technologies. Creating a diesel engine with 2 x the horsepower for the same weight as a high speed 4 stroke?? (such as the ones found on the Austal Auto Express 127 design)... Engines happen to be the heaviest thing on a ship like a fast ferry. Risk is minimal as they already have working engines and have proven the concept.

Going for range might also mean changing the propulsion. You don't have to use water jets. In fact when I asked Incat to design a vessel for me that had a 10000 NM range, we were seriously discussing contra-rotating super-cavitating props. Super-cavitating means a propeller that works best when it is creating cavitation at the tips, which in turn means a very high speed prop that can deliver more horse power to the water then a conventional prop. This in turn saves weight in gearing and makes for a very fast platform that is more efficient then a water-jet per sa'.

Anyway, to get the range and speed you would start off with the 127 design and probably move to a SWATH as I have suggested before on other threads. Increase the length a little to increase fuel load and work out the details from that baseline.

The forward basing for disaster recovery is an excellent proposal and would make my comments above about 2 v/ls redundant if one fast ferry was operating from a forward base. You just have to get it there for the benefits to kick in.

cheers

W

 

[Todjaeger]

Going with a forward-basing idea, what are people's thoughts on the number required to be effective, and where they should be placed? Also, what sort of facilities and stores?

I would think at a minimum there should be 3 forward/depots, each with 1,000 n miles of each other, with at least 2 of them within 1,000 n miles of NZ.

In terms of prepared facilities. I would think a dock arrangement to assisting off/on-loading equipment & supplies, along with nearby access to a landing strip capable of taking the any aircraft in the NZDF or ADF inventory. Prepostitioned fuel for vessels, vehicles and aircraft would be stored. As well as food,water, shelters and possibly some heavy engineering equipment.

Such arrangements could assist enormously in responding to disasters. Not only would personnel on a fast transport have whatever they brought with them, there would also be closer opportunities to refuel and resupply. By increasing the number of sites, but keeping them within a certain distance, the risk of catastrophic loss due to an event should be reduced as well.

Let me know what you think

-Cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

Storage of war supples and food, interesting subject. Most nations have barely enough war supplies and food to take care of today's business, much less future business years away. The British had to cross deck ammo and supplies during the Falklands.

About the only nation that has the capability to store things for future use, is America. Unfortunately, the supplies were so old and have been in storage so long, i.e., not being updated, much of the vast supplies were useless.

This subject comes up frequently when discussing recommissioning the Iowa class battleships. The generators are so old on them the builders who built them have no record or plans of building them sixty five years ago.

Yes, it would be great if New Zealand post positioned supplies in its neighboring island nations. Unfortunately, their defence budget barely pays for the supplies needed now. There are no extra funds for supples for the future.

If they did find the funds, and the supples were stored, at some time in the future these parts will be obsolete, tossed away. I know of no civilian government which will fund this potential boondoggle.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Storage of war supples and food, interesting subject. Most nations have barely enough war supplies and food to take care of today's business, much less future business years away. The British had to cross deck ammo and supplies during the Falklands.

About the only nation that has the capability to store things for future use, is America. Unfortunately, the supplies were so old and have been in storage so long, i.e., not being updated, much of the vast supplies were useless.

This subject comes up frequently when discussing recommissioning the Iowa class battleships. The generators are so old on them the builders who built them have no record or plans of building them sixty five years ago.

Yes, it would be great if New Zealand post positioned supplies in its neighboring island nations. Unfortunately, their defence budget barely pays for the supplies needed now. There are no extra funds for supples for the future.

If they did find the funds, and the supples were stored, at some time in the future these parts will be obsolete, tossed away. I know of no civilian government which will fund this potential boondoggle.

I agree, I don't feel that NZ would base military supplies, except for the most basic, at a forward base.

However I think that disaster relief supplies could be based there.

As for the base itself I think an airfield based on the Aussie bare base idea where a large runway is built (or extended). It could still be used for day to day civil ops but also be used as a forward base for P3s every so often and for hercs/757s to operate out of when the need arises. Also a basic port facility.

So not really a military base as such, but a facility paid for by the NZ Govt, that has guaranteed access for the NZDF.

 

[RubiconNZ]

I agree, I don't feel that NZ would base military supplies, except for the most basic, at a forward base.

However I think that disaster relief supplies could be based there.

As for the base itself I think an airfield based on the Aussie bare base idea where a large runway is built (or extended). It could still be used for day to day civil ops but also be used as a forward base for P3s every so often and for hercs/757s to operate out of when the need arises. Also a basic port facility.

So not really a military base as such, but a facility paid for by the NZ Govt, that has guaranteed access for the NZDF.

I like the idea, however thinking about it some issues may arise... Protection, to stop it being pillaged, you wouldn't place in Fiji for example as if another coup occurs youve got a supply depot relatively unprotected, also with airfields and port facilities, you would have to be prepared to defend them otherwise you would be allowing the enemy access to perfect jumping grounds to invade the NZ mainland, NZ's defence consists mainly of its remote status give a country stepping stones and...

 

[Whiskyjack]

I like the idea, however thinking about it some issues may arise... Protection, to stop it being pillaged, you wouldn't place in Fiji for example as if another coup occurs youve got a supply depot relatively unprotected, also with airfields and port facilities, you would have to be prepared to defend them otherwise you would be allowing the enemy access to perfect jumping grounds to invade the NZ mainland, NZ's defence consists mainly of its remote status give a country stepping stones and...

My thinking at the moment goes towards Niue, which is actually part of NZ, so there is not international legal issues.

There is no reason why a 20-30 person garrison could not be installed, but realistically it still requires a potential enemy to cross a large proportion of the earth, stretch a major, and brittle, logistics chain, for dubious strategic reasons.

Plus there are a lot of other small ports and airfields spread over the pacific.

 

[RubiconNZ]

My thinking at the moment goes towards Niue, which is actually part of NZ, so there is not international legal issues.

There is no reason why a 20-30 person garrison could not be installed, but realistically it still requires a potential enemy to cross a large proportion of the earth, stretch a major, and brittle, logistics chain, for dubious strategic reasons.

Plus there are a lot of other small ports and airfields spread over the pacific.

Valid, I guess it was a little paranoid , Niue would be a excellent choice and any assistance in the economy would most likely be welcome

 

[Todjaeger]

I agree, I don't feel that NZ would base military supplies, except for the most basic, at a forward base.

However I think that disaster relief supplies could be based there.

As for the base itself I think an airfield based on the Aussie bare base idea where a large runway is built (or extended). It could still be used for day to day civil ops but also be used as a forward base for P3s every so often and for hercs/757s to operate out of when the need arises. Also a basic port facility.

So not really a military base as such, but a facility paid for by the NZ Govt, that has guaranteed access for the NZDF.

What I was talking about re: bare basing, was to store certain supplies at different locations in the South Pacific. My reference to Warplan: Orange was that such resupply sites were scattered about, not the storage of ammunition, etc.

While setting up such a facility at Niue is a good idea, I think it might be better if similar facilities could also be setup at Tokelau and in the Cook and Kermadec islands as well. That way there isn't reliance on just once site which could be taken out by a disaster, and all the areas as affiliated with NZ.

As for stockpiling/storage of supplies. I see no reason why NZ couldn't safely store things like food, potable water, fuel, tentage and water purifiers and generators for an emergency.

With the bare base idea, having something like the RAAF has, include some reinforced structures to withstand a tropical cyclone, have inside them pre-packed shipping containers with the food, etc. and also have fuel tanks that can resupply aircraft, vehicles and vessels that might come to call. Include runaways and a docking area. That I think would about cover it.

The only other requirement that might be necessary would be for NZ to get portable ATC equipment if it needed to use a forward base a great deal in an emergency.

 

[gf0012-aust]

As for stockpiling/storage of supplies. I see no reason why NZ couldn't safely store things like food, potable water, fuel, tentage and water purifiers and generators for an emergency.

There are significant costs in doing this though. Australia used to have a similar process in place for emergency stocks right up until the mid 80's. ie we used to outfit all major buildings in Darwin with "monsoon/cyclone stocks".

the building I was in charge of typically had the following:

complete brand new toyota landcruiser 4wds
multiple sets of 4wd and truck tyres
fuel reserves held in 44 gallon drums
canned food
emergency clothing
water purifiers
emergency shelters (soft material)
emergency flat pack shelters
diesel stocks
portable generators
shotguns and centrefire weapons held in an armoury within the the cage.
basic medical supplies
portable communication. specific buildings were also kitted out with repeaters.
some building supplies.

the cost to replenish and replace stuff such as this in multiple places became a financial nightmare

 

[Todjaeger]

There are significant costs in doing this though. Australia used to have a similar process in place for emergency stocks right up until the mid 80's. ie we used to outfit all major buildings in Darwin with "monsoon/cyclone stocks".

the building I was in charge of typically had the following:

complete brand new toyota landcruiser 4wds
multiple sets of 4wd and truck tyres
fuel reserves held in 44 gallon drums
canned food
emergency clothing
water purifiers
emergency shelters (soft material)
emergency flat pack shelters
diesel stocks
portable generators
shotguns and centrefire weapons held in an armoury within the the cage.
basic medical supplies
portable communication. specific buildings were also kitted out with repeaters.
some building supplies.

the cost to replenish and replace stuff such as this in multiple places became a financial nightmare

This is a bit larger in scale than I was thinking of...

Basically what I had in mind was a dock/jetty, and attached to that was a paved airstrip. Along with the airstrip there might be 1-3 reinforced aircraft hangers, and inside the (locked) hangars would be standardized shipping containers. Inside of those would be palletized containers of food, water, tents, etc. There would also be portable water purification and generators. The rest of the supplies needed would be brought by the HSV, like vehicles, medical supplies, etc. I think one of the most important things to have at the bare base would be stocks to refuel the HSV in the event that the disaster is farther out.

The sort of situation where I see this being used would be to respond to situations like Grand Cayman Island found itself in after Hurricane Ivan hit in 2004. Basically the island was flattened and the water purification plants were knocked offline because of contamination.

What might make this sort of arrangement somewhat more palatable is if the bare bases became regular stopover points for NZDF and/or ADF personnel that are on routine patrol (for Navy) or overflights (for Air Force) By stopping regularly, they could deliver replenishment stocks as well as refuel themselves so that the fuel doesn't seperate. Not to mention make sure that no one has "helped themselves" when no one is around...

Be interested in the critique of the idea. Granted, not sure exactly the quantity of stocks that would be "sufficient". The only thing I would say in that regard, for fuel, be it ship of aircraft, there should be enough to completely refuel the ship or aircraft. At least in my opinion anyway.

 

[Wooki]

There was quite a significant little advertisement on TV I caught here when Hurricane Katrina came through.

It was a scene of a truck with the vendor logo on it (Home Depot, Walmart, whatever) making a left turn signal with the radio playing.... some sort of disaster was reported and the signal changed from left, to right and the truck pulled away.

with the normal splurge, "we care, etc, etc,"

To create a supply "dump", you don't create a military or civil emergency facility. You put in place a working hardware-like store, like your Walmart or your Home Depot.

And you run it at a "loss". That is to say you make it large enough to respond to an event and have it operate as a normal store. This alleviates the problem of "old stocks" as you have created turn over, which arguably can pay for new stocks. You just maintain a very large inventory.

If you do this and let commercial practices take over, market forces will begin to make the island and that warehouse an economic hub within the Pacific Islands.

Not all solutions have to be military solutions

cheers

w

 

[Todjaeger]

There was quite a significant little advertisement on TV I caught here when Hurricane Katrina came through.

It was a scene of a truck with the vendor logo on it (Home Depot, Walmart, whatever) making a left turn signal with the radio playing.... some sort of disaster was reported and the signal changed from left, to right and the truck pulled away.

with the normal splurge, "we care, etc, etc,"

To create a supply "dump", you don't create a military or civil emergency facility. You put in place a working hardware-like store, like your Walmart or your Home Depot.

And you run it at a "loss". That is to say you make it large enough to respond to an event and have it operate as a normal store. This alleviates the problem of "old stocks" as you have created turn over, which arguably can pay for new stocks. You just maintain a very large inventory.

If you do this and let commercial practices take over, market forces will begin to make the island and that warehouse an economic hub within the Pacific Islands.

Not all solutions have to be military solutions

cheers

w

I'm not sure a "commercial" solution would provide what I would be looking at having in Niue, or the Cook Islands, etc. Can anyone provide info on the economic & civilian supply chain situation for the NZ possessions? With Niue, for instance, it is approximately 500km from the next closest island. With that in mind, I would anticipate that any "civilian" usage of supplies by way of purchase, etc. would be confined to Niue and any vessels or aircraft that come to call there. I believe that it would be cheaper for commercial enterprises to just import supplies directly from the source than to transship it through Niue of some other South Pacific island.

Regarding the example given of Home Depot, something like that would work well in the US, or other fairly densely inhabited area. Such locations can & do get restocked on a regular basis, with places like supermarkets frequently getting freshly restocked on a nightly basis. For far-flung forward bases, particularly if they only have small local populations, I'm not sure that would work. At least not without significantly more specifics.

As for a further explanation of the bare-base idea. What I would be looking for it a site that, in the event of a disaster on the island, stored supplies and facilities could be immediately used to assist in recovery. Secondly, use of the facility could be made in the event of a disaster at a nearby island. The location could be a waypoint to refuel and resupply on the way to & from the disaster site.

-cheers

 

[Wooki]

I'm not sure a "commercial" solution would provide what I would be looking at having in Niue, or the Cook Islands, etc. Can anyone provide info on the economic & civilian supply chain situation for the NZ possessions? With Niue, for instance, it is approximately 500km from the next closest island. With that in mind, I would anticipate that any "civilian" usage of supplies by way of purchase, etc. would be confined to Niue and any vessels or aircraft that come to call there. I believe that it would be cheaper for commercial enterprises to just import supplies directly from the source than to transship it through Niue of some other South Pacific island.

Regarding the example given of Home Depot, something like that would work well in the US, or other fairly densely inhabited area. Such locations can & do get restocked on a regular basis, with places like supermarkets frequently getting freshly restocked on a nightly basis. For far-flung forward bases, particularly if they only have small local populations, I'm not sure that would work. At least not without significantly more specifics.

As for a further explanation of the bare-base idea. What I would be looking for it a site that, in the event of a disaster on the island, stored supplies and facilities could be immediately used to assist in recovery. Secondly, use of the facility could be made in the event of a disaster at a nearby island. The location could be a waypoint to refuel and resupply on the way to & from the disaster site.

-cheers

You are right about distance, but you subsidize the operation, as you are running it at a loss, but it will be cheaper then running a base per sae.

Doing this will also encourage economic development from neighboring islands as it will be cheaper to purchase subsidized goods then import directly from the source because it is closer. If you do that tough then you must make a long range commitment, as this little "node" is creating a totally artificial economy. Remove the node and the economy would collapse in upon itself.

It is something that needs to be carefully considered and implemented. Most definitely not as easy as building a new platform.

cheers

W

 

[Sea Toby]

We have gone from basing military supplies to civilian supplies, these islands under New Zealand already have civil defence shelters with supplies to last a few weeks. The Canterbury after a natural disaster should arrive within a week, a frigate or OPV could arrive a day or two earlier. New Zealand Hercules aircraft would arrive within several hours with medical personnel and supplies.

Rebuilding will start after the humanitarian rescue phase. The first phase is to tend to the wounded, bury the dead, and bring food, before terrible diseases break out. The Canterbury will bring the lion's share of the rebuilding equipment and personnel necessary. The population of the 15 small Cook islands is 18,700, the population of Niue island is 2,000. These are small towns, not small or large cities.

 

[Wooki]

We have gone from basing military supplies to civilian supplies, these islands under New Zealand already have civil defence shelters with supplies to last a few weeks. The Canterbury after a natural disaster should arrive within a week, a frigate or OPV could arrive a day or two earlier. New Zealand Hercules aircraft would arrive within several hours with medical personnel and supplies.

Rebuilding will start after the humanitarian rescue phase. The first phase is to tend to the wounded, bury the dead, and bring food, before terrible diseases break out. The Canterbury will bring the lion's share of the rebuilding equipment and personnel necessary. The population of the 15 small Cook islands is 18,700, the population of Niue island is 2,000. These are small towns, not small or large cities.

And your point is that the Cook Islands and Niue make poor locations for such an effort?

My point is that a commercially based ware-house concept in a strategic location will create economic stimuli that will (in turn) create new vessels procured by nations other than NZ that can respond to a natural disaster.

Why? Because the new vessels will be built to service Island nations shuttling to and from the "ware-house Island". If you are struggling with how to envisage that, an example of such a warehouse model would be Hong Kong and Singapore albeit on a larger scale.

Niue, would not be my location of choice for such an operation, but I think others were thinking more along nationalistic lines here and that is why it was proposed.

cheers


W

 

[Whiskyjack]

And your point is that the Cook Islands and Niue make poor locations for such an effort?

My point is that a commercially based ware-house concept in a strategic location will create economic stimuli that will (in turn) create new vessels procured by nations other than NZ that can respond to a natural disaster.

Why? Because the new vessels will be built to service Island nations shuttling to and from the "ware-house Island". If you are struggling with how to envisage that, an example of such a warehouse model would be Hong Kong and Singapore albeit on a larger scale.

Niue, would not be my location of choice for such an operation, but I think others were thinking more along nationalistic lines here and that is why it was proposed.

cheers


W

I think there are two points here, the one which you are talking about is more disaster orientated. I tend to agree with your ideas there BTW!

My original idea was more around having an airfield/port capability into the Pacific that the NZDF (or ADF etc..) could use as a logistics/jump off point for Peace Keeping/Peace Enforcement/Intervention operations out into the Pacific. Hence the idea that the base needs to be somewhere that the NZDF can operate under NZ law. No tricky politics then!

 

[Todjaeger]

But tricky politics are fun...

Where I was starting from with the idea was that if NZ had a HSV, or any other vessel for that matter, there were pre-positioned spots that it could refuel at. That way, if something happened in Fiji (another coup, natural disaster, etc.) for instance, NZ could rapidly deploy the HSV to land personnel and equipment, or conduct an evacuation. Then if it needed fuel, instead of needing to rendevous with the Endeavor or a RAN replenishment it has an alternate location it could go through.

From there, additional considerations were added. If there is already a refueling facility for ships, why not add a landing strip to refuel flights since aircraft will have the same range issue. And it went on from there...

The underlining requirement for the facilities though was it had to be useable by the NZDF whenever they wished, without requiring overflight or landing rights.

-cheers