Morality and War

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Time to pause a little before posting for some of you.

remember the forum rules on respect...

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And PLEASE TRY TO USE THE QUOTE codes:

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ThunderBolt

New Member
I am sorry if i caused some one to get offended, but this is just my opinion. Again Iam sorry for what i said, especially when i said about US attacking Canada...
 

DarthAmerica

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  • #23
thegoldenhorde said:
EXUCUSE ME?:eek:

Approxamately 220,000 people died in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. More died from radiation posioning later. In Iraq, far less than 100,000 people have been killed by American air strikes. As an American, I must refute your claim.
If you sum total the people killed in the 15 years of war we have had with Iraq and include live lost due to diplomacy/sanctions it will be far less than if the issue was settled with nukes. Of course only using counter force strikes.

Also it could have been done without the necessity of occupying Saudi Arabia potentially preventing 9/11.
 

Scorpius

New Member
Admin: Text deleted. You've been on here long enough to know what are acceptable frames of reference for questions.

sorry.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Admin: A very solid reminder. Read the forum rules before posting. If people cannot abide by simple requests we will close the thread. This topic can be debated at an appropriate level - work out how to do it or lose it.
 
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DarthAmerica

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Historical Note

As I ponder military history and human nature. It seems that there is a direct relationship between desperation and morality. The more dire your situation, the less morally limited you are in your methods.

When you are in a position of strength however. Its in your interest, sometimes, to impose limitations on combat to prevent the disadvantaged enemy from using "equalising technologies and tactics" that might otherwise allow a means to offset your advantages.


So fundamentally, we arent dealing with morality at all. Just prudence. Where this strategy fails is when you deal with an enemy that does not subscribe to your high moral standards or the much more likely possibility that the enemy realises that its not in his interest to play by your rules. At that point unless you make an adjustment, you could lose.

Losing means death.
 

Ding

Member
Just to ask a question...

why exactly did US invaded Iraq? Is it because of WMD? Is Iraq directly challenging the US militarily? Oil? or maybe according to another forumer "To free the Iraqi people? Or to split our enemies in two and gain strategic position while getting control of oil, water, and one end of the straight? "

what was the exact reason(s) that happened. Oh and just as a reflection, can you really say the quality of Iraqi civilian is better now that when they were under Saddam?

If, as what I often hear, US went into Iraq - Operation Iraqi Freedom... It should be Liberation by the way, since you Liberate oppressed people..you dont freedomise them... but then it will become Operation Iraqi Liberation or OIL..isnt that ironic??? - on the premise of liberating the people, isnt that going to war over a moral dimension? that because US is morally correct, it justifies her action? the end justifies the means?

or am I wrong and the Gulf war is because of something else?

If the above main question can (of course you can) be answered, then I'll come out with my view of morality in war...
 
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Rich

Member
Ding said:
Just to ask a question...

why exactly did US invaded Iraq? Is it because of WMD? Is Iraq directly challenging the US militarily? Oil? or maybe according to another forumer "To free the Iraqi people? Or to split our enemies in two and gain strategic position while getting control of oil, water, and one end of the straight? "

what was the exact reason(s) that happened. Oh and just as a reflection, can you really say the quality of Iraqi civilian is better now that when they were under Saddam?

If, as what I often hear, US went into Iraq - Operation Iraqi Freedom... It should be Liberation by the way, since you Liberate oppressed people..you dont freedomise them... but then it will become Operation Iraqi Liberation or OIL..isnt that ironic??? - on the premise of liberating the people, isnt that going to war over a moral dimension? that because US is morally correct, it justifies her action? the end justifies the means?

or am I wrong and the Gulf war is because of something else?

If the above main question can (of course you can) be answered, then I'll come out with my view of morality in war...
Type, "Saddam's violations of UN resolutions and Cease fire agreement" in a search engine and see how many instances pop up. I guess the historical equivalent would be to have given Hitler a pass at the end, thru Political correctness and stupidity, and then passing dozens of resolutions while turning a blind eye to his WMD "shell game", UN inspector obstructions, shooting at allied warplanes, and trying to assassinate a former US President visiting France.

You do remember all this don't you? He did it for over a decade, all the while the same United Nations helped him create an underground oil economy that he used to reconstitute his centers of power while starving his people for the 6 O'clock newscasts.

Why do I bother even explaining this anymore?:drunk1 I guess I'm the only one who remembers. The only one who remembers he never complied with inspectors and simply could never be trusted.

And its not America causing Iraq's torment now. Just like it wasnt under Saddam.

BTW, we also invaded to force Political change in the region and split/flank our other enemies "Iran/Syria", while wresting control of much of the regions oil, water, and strategic position. Take a look at a regional map sometime and see where our enemies are, and then where American forces are. Why do you think Russia is arming Iran to the teeth? Weve done something, from 1/2 the world away, that their communist Dictators could only dream of.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Oil and War

I must say I am a little tired of the war for oil debate, if we look at economic costs alone estimated costs of 1 Trillion US for the campaign and the cost of US and Iraqi lives, the they did for oil arguement doesn't stick with me, I mean imagine 1 trillion dollars worth of fuel subsidies, and US fuel is still at a pretty sweet price with UK petrol at 1 pound a litre. I 100% agree that Sadam Hussein was a Homicidal maniac who needed to be removed from power, that the Iraqi people will be better off with out him, I mean as far as I know Northern Iraq is doing relatively well at the moment. I think that President Bush snr, should of finished the job properly at the time and the resultant massacre of the Kurdish rebellion was on the heads of US Policy. The Iraq could have waited untill Afghanstan was little more safer as I think anyone would admit efforts have been hindered there due to resource priority.

[QUOTE ] Why do you think Russia is arming Iran to the teeth? Weve done something, from 1/2 the world away, that their communist Dictators could only dream of. [/ QUOTE]

Youv'e hit the nail on the head there Rich, Cold War chess games from either side have created alot of the problems to date, one of the Afghanistan biggest threat CIA supplied Stingers, Iraq one time ally of US with some assistance to Iran the only other nation with F-14's, these are follow on effects of the Cold War that have more than eaten the "peace dividend." The most common terrorist weapon AK47 and a RPG, sure now its Russian Mafia supply but 20 yrs ago nope it was all state sponsored, much like the Contra incident.

In relation to Armament of space well that is a absolute given, while I dont like the idea of nuclear weapon platforms, I mean Skylab hit Aus as it game down... other systems will prvide the best defence, which will include offence.

Dropping the bomb in WW2, terrible, but any one with with half a brain can see that it saved lives on all sides, Okinawa being the clear and shining example. Use of it again in a similar matter, if need be yes, however the need is generally not city busting its

In relation to POWs as a great grandson of Allied POW of Japanese forces, treament MUST be how we would expect ours to be treated, if the Aus gov EVER treated pow's in similar matter well I would be disgusted as well as many other survivors and relatives.

Torture well nearly the same goes except well what is torture, being stripped naked meh, sleep deprivation meh, deprivation of certain liberties, meh again. Heck even a waterboard, (Id never want it used on me) but well its hardly permanently damaging or well cruel, once yous start getting to electricity bamboo shoots under the nails and ripping finger nails out well I really couldnt support that either I mean it jsut comes down to treatment of other humans even as despicable as they me, once you use there methods you sink to their level.


Other WMDs well ban them all, and cripple countries one way or another, I mean I do not think there would be any descent person who wish the same could not be done with Nukes, but there will always be someone wanting them, total disarmement by the US and Russia plus the the other "official" 3 powers, great but someone will always want the upper hand,

oh yeah targeting civillians well that again, I mean the outrage of 911 other than the embaressment of the security breach was the targeting of civilians, the world stopped as a result not just financial ramifications but the horror of the atrocity, if you act in reciprication well then you become as bad and jsut as much and enemy to the world or humanity as the original agressor,

well that was just my humble opinion, fcriticism is cool, as ive held these views for awhile and am glad to express them and you can only truly know your opinion once youve defended them.
Cheers
 

DarthAmerica

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  • #30
Ding said:
Just to ask a question...

why exactly did US invaded Iraq? Is it because of WMD? Is Iraq directly challenging the US militarily? Oil? or maybe according to another forumer "To free the Iraqi people? Or to split our enemies in two and gain strategic position while getting control of oil, water, and one end of the straight? "

what was the exact reason(s) that happened. Oh and just as a reflection, can you really say the quality of Iraqi civilian is better now that when they were under Saddam?

If, as what I often hear, US went into Iraq - Operation Iraqi Freedom... It should be Liberation by the way, since you Liberate oppressed people..you dont freedomise them... but then it will become Operation Iraqi Liberation or OIL..isnt that ironic??? - on the premise of liberating the people, isnt that going to war over a moral dimension? that because US is morally correct, it justifies her action? the end justifies the means?

or am I wrong and the Gulf war is because of something else?

If the above main question can (of course you can) be answered, then I'll come out with my view of morality in war...


Why Iraq was invaded, again...


*Violating the UNSC cease fire terms

*Saddam was an active threat to the United States

*Saddam was a consistent source of regional instability

*Saddam was vulnerable

*US Paradigm shift more to preemption vs deterence

*To provide a more permanent US presence in a key region of the world

*Security of natural resources

*To flank Axis of Evil and other terror sponsors/sympathizers

*To deny strategic depth to SA, Pakistan, Iran and Syria

*To facilitate more rapid US responses to regional threats and follow on operations

*To demonstrate US resolve following 9/11

*To increase US influence/control in and over regional politics

*To prevent an Iraq/AQ axis

*To assist Israel
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Reasons for War

DarthAmerica said:
*To assist Israel
Whoa thats a reason that I would not like to presented in the general public, hehe thats uber contentious, Hey I agree 100% with the list, but if that last one was ever admitted :hehe
 

DarthAmerica

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robsta83 said:
Whoa thats a reason that I would not like to presented in the general public, hehe thats uber contentious, Hey I agree 100% with the list, but if that last one was ever admitted :hehe

From a morality point of view its got public political legitimacy this time because Saddam's government was openly sponsoring terrorism against Israel by funding the suicide bombings.
 

merocaine

New Member
torture

For me morality comes to play if torture is used just for the sake of using it. If it is administered by professionals in a controlled environment for interrogation purposes. Then I dont have a problem with it. You all know the ticking timebomb analogy. That best explains my position.

Been watching 24 lately......

I would go one step further.
Obviously you would have to get the medical profession in on the act, to make sure ur not going to kill the guy! so that might cause some problems with the hypocratic oath, but hey making an omlette and all

You would also need a branch of law that could deal with confessions made under duress, touture lawyers so to speck.

For true professional to occour you would need schools to teach tourture techniques, its not going to be like saddam, its going to be scientific, the school of medicine the school of law the school of tortue ect.

The population would have to be prepared also, they might have some worries concerning torture, so the best thing to do would be to turn the tourturer into a hero, take him out of the shadows so to speck. Like a fireman or a policeman a young lad would be proud of having a touturer as a parent.

The last thing you want to do is try to hide it like your ashamed or something
:rolleyes:
 

merocaine

New Member
torture

"For me morality comes to play if torture is used just for the sake of using it. If it is administered by professionals in a controlled environment for interrogation purposes. Then I dont have a problem with it. You all know the ticking timebomb analogy. That best explains my position."

Been watching 24 lately......

I would go one step further.
Obviously you would have to get the medical profession in on the act, to make sure ur not going to kill the guy! so that might cause some problems with the hypocratic oath, but hey making an omlette and all

You would also need a branch of law that could deal with confessions made under duress, touture lawyers so to speck.

For true professional to occour you would need schools to teach tourture techniques, its not going to be like saddam, its going to be scientific, the school of medicine the school of law the school of tortue ect.

The population would have to be prepared also, they might have some worries concerning torture, so the best thing to do would be to turn the tourturer into a hero, take him out of the shadows so to speck. Like a fireman or a policeman a young lad would be proud of having a touturer as a parent.

The last thing you want to do is try to hide it like your ashamed or something
:rolleyes:
 

KGB

New Member
merocaine said:
"For me morality comes to play if torture is used just for the sake of using it. If it is administered by professionals in a controlled environment for interrogation purposes. Then I dont have a problem with it. You all know the ticking timebomb analogy. That best explains my position."

Been watching 24 lately......

I would go one step further.
Obviously you would have to get the medical profession in on the act, to make sure ur not going to kill the guy! so that might cause some problems with the hypocratic oath, but hey making an omlette and all

For true professional to occour you would need schools to teach tourture techniques, its not going to be like saddam, its going to be scientific, the school of medicine the school of law the school of tortue ect.

:rolleyes:
Let me refer you to the work of Dr Alfred McCoy , a historian based I think in the Univesitynof Michigan. In his book "Closer than Brothers" he offers compelling evidence that the torture techniques used by certain repressive regimes during the cold war originated from research in the US, funded by the CIA and then taught to client states.
 

merocaine

New Member
School of the Americas is a case in point.
But I'm sure most of the scuzzy little dictatorships the americans supported were well capable of figuring out there own little routines for them self's.
Anyway whose hands are clean when it comes to those things
 
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