Modernization and Acquisition of Combatant Vessels for Pakistani Navy.

[Ethan]

Pakistani navy currently is armed with 8 older British frigates and these need to be replaced as soon as possible. The Pakistani fast attack missile craft are in a slightly better shape, two of these were built locally in the Karanchi shipyard. The antimine warfare / laying vessels are also in decent shape. I think a few were acquired from Sweden or from France in mid 90s.

However the major surface combatants need to be replaced with newer vessels which would last for another 25 years or so. There were rumors that Pakistan had ordered 4 Jianwei II class frigates from China but it seems this deal fell through because of a lack of funding. The deal was assumed to be around $500,000,000. However, I think the deal did not go through because the Chinese Navy is not acquiring these vessels as their next generation frigate either and has stopped the production of any newer vessels of the same class. These ships lacked adequate anti-ship/ anti-aircraft defence as well as proper anti sub defences. Therefore, PN probably decided to wait until the right vessel came along.

The Chinese are currently starting the construction of a new generation of vessel, which on the surface seems to be very similar to the Lafayette class frigates. The latest photos indicate a new generation of Chinese FFG. The Type 054A is currently under development to replace Jianghu and Jiangwei class FFGs. It may feature an American MK48 style 32-cell VLS (armed with a chinese variant of the SA-N-12/HQ16 with Front Dome guidance radar) utilizing hot launch as well as Type 730 CIWS.

The ship's anti-ship missiles would most probably be the newest C-803 missile which has a cruise speed of .9 mach and is supersonic in the final stages of the flight. It has a reported range of 250 KM. There is also a LACM variant of the C-803, which has a range of 400 KM. These missiles can also be launced from submarines and aircraft such as the JH-7A Leopard II.

I will post pictures of the Type 54A frigate, which shows a VLS in the front of the ship and behind the main deck gun and that of C-803 anti-ship/LACM later on. I dont have the pictures on my computer right now.

I believe Pakistan should acquire these in sufficent numbers to not only replace the 8 older Brtish ships which are of the 1970s era but should acquire enough to actually increase the number of major surface combatants.

These ships are cheap and carry the right amount fire power and are truly multirole unlike the previous frigates i.e the Jiangwei I, II, and III. I think Pakistan shoud order 4-6 directly from China and build another 4-6 under licence. Armed with medium range SAMs these will give the naval ships a capability that the navy does not currently have along with long range anti-ship missiles and LACMS. I belive 12 of these ships would be a handsome addition to the Navy.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Pakistan – PHALANX Close-In Weapon Systems


(Source: Defense Security Cooperation Agency; issued Nov. 16, 2004)


On 16 November 2004, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of six Phalanx Close-In Weapon Systems (CIWS), upgrade of six Phalanx CIWS Block 0 to Block 1B, as well as associated equipment and services.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $155 million.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale for six Phalanx Close-In Weapon Systems (CIWS), upgrade of six Phalanx CIWS Block 0 to Block 1B, spare and repair parts, modification kits, supply and support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics services and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $155 million.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that continues to be a key ally in the global war on terrorism.

The proposed sale will provide Pakistani surface ships with a highly lethal defense capability against inbound aircraft, missiles, and fast moving surface craft. The modernization of the CIWS will enhance the capabilities of the Pakistani Navy and support its regional influence. It will further allow Pakistan to ensure the viability of their existing CIWSs by facilitating the upgrade of the current Block 0 system that are being phased out and becoming unsupportable by U.S. Navy logistic systems. Upgrading of the current system into the Block configuration that the U.S. Navy operates from will also reduce Pakistani logistical costs and will also reduce overall operating expenses.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractor will be The Raytheon Company of Tucson, Arizona. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

There will be U.S. Government and contractor representatives for one-week intervals twice annually to participate in program management and technical reviews to Pakistan.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded. (ends)

 

[Ethan]

Phalanx is not a substitute for medium range missiles and new multirole frigates, which is what Pakistan needs. I hope Pakistan is not paying for this crappy stuff out of it's own pocket. As far as I am concerned this is a complete waste of money.

 

[tatra]

I doubt Pakistan is getting 054 or 054 derivative ships any time soon. Plan will need to make these for itself rather than for export. New ships for Pakistan, at least the planned first four, are likely F22P and Jiangwei based.

 

[lalith prasad]

what sort of vessels are the f22p ,how do they compare with the in brahmaputra class of vessels ,project17a and project 15 class of vessels.

 

[mysterious]

There we go once again Lalith Prasad! One normal discussion underway and you come up with a tit-for-tat Indo-Pak comparison as you've done before in other threads. Tell me why can't we have a 'normal' discussion about some equipment without having the comparison being shoved in our faces when the discussion hasn't even started properly yet? F-22P frigates have been discussed a thousands times in the naval forum on DT plus there's Google always available for you to exercise some searching skills. And once again, if you want to compare, open up a new thread, dont derail this one as this one is only about discussing 'Modernization and Acquisition of Combatant Vessels for the Pakistani Navy'.

 

[Ethan]

As Mysterious said, this is not a discussion of India vs. Pakistan. We are discussing what platforms Pakistan might be acquiring. Since there has been no mention of the Jiangwei II class frigates recently, I am assuming the deal has not gone through. Remember the same thing happend with the Mirage-20005 and other rumors. So I am assuming it has not gone through.

Type-54A seems to be a very capable frigate. For one thing it has a 32 cell VLS launcher armed with HQ-16 (Chinese production version of the SAN-12 missiles). Also it will be armed with longer range anti-ship missile the C-803 which has a range of 250 KM, like the Russian variant it cruises at subsonic speed and it supposed to be supersonic in the final stages of it's flight. There is also a first generation LACM of the missile, I think it's called YJ-12 and suppose to have a range of 400 KM. Not much more is known about this missile, but if it is the same frame then it could be loaded on the same canisters at that of the C-803 missiles. Armed with an anti-sub warfare helicopter it would be a very capable and affordable multi-role FFG.

Guys please refrain from making any comparisons with the Indian Navy. That could be another thread.

 

[mysterious]

Mods?? Somebody to limit Mr. Suchit in his pants?

 

[doggychow14]

if pakistan really does acquire the pahlanx close in systems....ummmmmm then too it will be a loser in sorts....pakistani navy shouldnt forget that the indians are acquiring the admiral gorshkov with the mig-29k and ka-31 helicopters and is also looking at the tupelov 22 bombers....not to mention that it is reviewing the orions of america...at the same time it is building its own aircraft carrier which will carry atleast 20 light combat helicopters and 6 ka-31....so it needs to be beware and cautiously paln to modernize its fleet.

Carriers are used for power projection. Pakistan is right next to India....Pakistan can just use land based aircraft as the range will be sufficient.

 

[Ethan]

Please refrain from using fowl language and demeaning other nations. This is not about Pakistan vs. India. We are trying to talk about the possible naval vessels Pakistan may acquire.

According to www.naval-technology.com the last of the Agosta 90B submarines will enter service with PN at the end of 2004. Also France gave Pakistan a complete transfer of tecnology for the subs and gave it the licence to market the sub to other countries. This information is according to the website.

I was wondering what about the three remainin older Agosta subs, even though these are capable platforms these were acquired in the late 70s. Is Pakistan going to replace these also with the new Agosta 90B subs, since as of now it is suppose to be able to build these entirely on it's own. Does anyone know anything about this?

Maybe an evolved design of Agosta 90B (Agosta 90C?) one with VLS cells for launching cruise misslis (YJ-12 with a range of 400 KM armed with Nuclear warheads).

 

[Ethan]

In a surprise attack the carriers can be neutralized. They are not all that is made out to be. The threat from subs could very well keep then in the shipyards as it did in the 71 war.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Ethan, a decent close in defence system is a pre-requisite for any major warship these days. You simply cannot operate without one. To adequately defend yourself, you need a layered defence system comprised of longer and shorter range, complementary defence systems.

The Phalanx 1B is the latest edition of the popular Phalanx Close in Weapon System and is the current inservice standard Phalanx used on US Navy warships. It's hardly "crappy stuff" as you put it...

A foreign military sales announcement (like this one) means that a particular Country (in this case Pakistan) has placed an order for a particular system through the US's foreign military sales system, ie: Pakistan has specifically requested this system. If so they're obviously quite willing to pay for it. I can't think of anyone else who'd pay for it for them...

 

[lalith prasad]

it is very simple issue i have no intention of actually comparing indian and pakistani naval ships all i want to point out is at the best f22 class of vessels(if you check the specifications on the sinodefence.com)are comparable to in brahmaputra claa of vessels which are of medium tech .pakistan needs to to acquire more modern vessels than them if they want to take on indian navy,instead of looking to chinese pakistan should diversify towards germany (have they ever cosidered the german meko200 class)they can kick any indian naval vessel.(2500-3500 tons displacement,6000nms range paams etc).f22 will not be much of a threat to the indian naval vessels like(shivalik of bangalore).

 

[tatra]

Purchase of Type 054 from China may present some difficulties as PLAN needs modern ships built as well. As an alternative to F22P, PAK-N could look into getting some South Korean built ships (like the one supplied to Bangladesh) with Chinese armaments (e.g. 1x 100mm DPG, 2x twin 37, 1x5 round SAM launcher, 2x4 SSM, 2x3 ASW torpedotubes, ASW/ASuW helicopter) and a mix of Western and Chinese radars and electronics. I'm sure the Chinese would be willing to supply the weaponry. By building in South Korea initial cost may be kept relatively low and delivery speedy.

 

[srirangan]

I highly doubt South Korea will sell to Pak considering Pak's relations with the North.

 

[tatra]

I highly doubt South Korea will sell to Pak considering Pak's relations with the North.

Relations are a matter of choice and can change. Besides, business is business. Why would a country like Pakistan want to stay associated with North Korea anyway? For nuke and missile tech? There are other possible sources for that plus look at where PAK already is in those fields today. I'm sure the US wouldn't mind providing incentives for breaking those ties that would be of interest to PAK.

 

[Ethan]

Lalith:

You are right, the original F-22P won't be much of an addition to the Pakistani navy. But I dont think F-22P is the name of a particular class of vessel, I would assume that it is the name of the procurement program. Originally it seemed it was the Jiangwei II firgates. Then there was no mention of the subject anymore and latest reports seemed to indicate the project didnt go through because of a lack of appropriate funding.

The latest reports have stated that the vessel has a dead weight of 3000 tons, I am assuming once again that total displacement maybe around 3500 tons. Based on that I'd say there is a good chance that the friates might be eigther the Type-54 or the more evolved design Type-54A. However, this is only an assumption. Either way, the F-22P version would in all probability differ from the Chines variants in terms of avionics. I sure it would have a certain amount of Western content. As has been reported recently that U.S. if providing the latest variant of the Phalanx CIWS. This has been reported just as the dawn article reported Pakistan's acquisition of the 3000 ton frigate. Maybe therse CIWS are intended for these frigates.

I am just connecting the dots. I guess we will find out for sure which vessel is it exactly soon enough. Either way, if three of these vessels will be constructed locally, then it'd be a great boost for the PN as well as for the Pakistani economy and ship building industry.

I am anxiously awaiting to see which vessel it would be. Once again my guess is either Type-54 or Type-54A. Let me know which vessels do you think these might be?

 

[Ethan]

Well if anyone finds out which frigate is it exactly that Pakistan has netotiated for, then let us know. I searched on the web and there is no mention of what vessel is it exactly accept that it has a dead weight of 3000 tons and would carry a Chinese Anti-sub warfare Helicopter.

Moving away from the discussion of Frigates. Let's talk about the the Agosta 90b subs. Onc of the articles I read, I think it was from dawn.com, it stated that Pakistan will commission it's 3rd Agosta 90b sub in March 2006.

Does anyone know what Pakistan intends to do with the older Agosta subs that were inducted in the lates 70s. Will Pakistan construct additional Agosta 90b subs to replace the older subs or will it be going through some kind of a modernization of these subs.

Also are the Agosta 90bs going to be cofigured to carry some kind of Nuclear tipped LACM. I think I read somewhere earlier that Pakistan was planning on such a capability. It might just have been a rumor.

 

[webmaster]

May want to look at this thread as well:

http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2284

 

[gf0012-aust]

Also are the Agosta 90bs going to be cofigured to carry some kind of Nuclear tipped LACM. I think I read somewhere earlier that Pakistan was planning on such a capability. It might just have been a rumor.

The Agostas were modifed recently (in the last 1.5 years). I don't think the info is in the public domain though.

None of the changes were weapons related though.