Military Balance in South Asia

is it almost meaningless to speak about an India-Pakistan balance

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 61.4%
  • No

    Votes: 17 38.6%

  • Total voters
    44

vijayshimla

New Member
tomahawk6 said:
It would be interesting for India to deploy several brigades in eastern Afghanistan to help NATO out.;)
[B]It would be good for India to have presence in Afghanistan for peace keeping perhaps U N should demand it- India will have to come out of its shell sometime- to fulfill it's desire for a sec. council seat.[/B]
 

peacelover

New Member
India as a peace keeper in afganistan

It would be great for India as a peace keeper in afganistan but do you think that pakistan would be comfortable to have a division of indian forces on it's afgani border.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
Indian Army definitely need a dedicated Attack Heli to perform CAP and Anti-tank roles.
not like modfying Mi-17 for Anti-Tank Roles when it is required.
 

aaaditya

New Member
ajay_ijn said:
Indian Army definitely need a dedicated Attack Heli to perform CAP and Anti-tank roles.
not like modfying Mi-17 for Anti-Tank Roles when it is required.
that's why they are developing the lch,though i would prefer something heavy like the mi35 which also has a troop carrying capability.
 

TheDefender

New Member
aaaditya said:
that's why they are developing the lch,though i would prefer something heavy like the mi35 which also has a troop carrying capability.
Yeah i know LCH is also gonna take time in its development same like the LCA.You know there are a lot of things to do in the development of sophisticated items for the military.So lets see what happens to the LCH.I dont understand why Indian Air Force and Indian Army wants indegnous items,i know that time is going no where and if they do not develop anything in time nothing is gonna happen because there are four countries in a row which are nuclear powers.But why only indignous.See what Pakistan has done,they made a joint venture with China in developing the thunders and they took the engines from Ukrine for the development of Al-Khalid, later all things can be done indegnously to save time and $$$.
 

aaaditya

New Member
TheDefender said:
Yeah i know LCH is also gonna take time in its development same like the LCA.You know there are a lot of things to do in the development of sophisticated items for the military.So lets see what happens to the LCH.I dont understand why Indian Air Force and Indian Army wants indegnous items,i know that time is going no where and if they do not develop anything in time nothing is gonna happen because there are four countries in a row which are nuclear powers.But why only indignous.See what Pakistan has done,they made a joint venture with China in developing the thunders and they took the engines from Ukrine for the development of Al-Khalid, later all things can be done indegnously to save time and $$$.
ths shows how ignorant you are about the lch project,the project has already received funding from the indian airforce and is in an advanced stage of development ,with the first prototype expected to fly late next year.

this attack helicopter is a direct derivative of the alh dhruv using the same main rotor,tail rotor and transmission but with a redesigned body(the image of which has already been displayed),the avionics are likely to be developed using the indo-israeli technology and the avionics integration is to be done by a company know as datasol.

the lch will also have the same engine as the alh,this engine is a joint development between india and france and is currently undergoing ground tests,this engine is known as the shakti in india and ardiden 2h in france and is a derivative of the tm333-2c2 engines a variant of which power the current batch of the alh dhruv's,these engine will be replaced in the future by the shakti,which will be common for both the dhruv and the lch(may be a slightly uprated variant )

the advantage of this is that timescale of development is reduced ,the cost of development is reduced since the basic technologies like the rotor and gearbox are already developed and proven and all that they would require would be a slight redesign,also the maintainence cost will be reduced since many of the components would be interchangeable,production would be simplified since the same tooling would be used.

the alh is already in service with the indian armed forces(a total of 300 have been ordered by the indian armed forces and a a squadron is being acquired for the indian special forces),another feature of the alh dhruv is that it is weapons system capable ,it can easily converted from troop transport to combat support in a few hours .

the normal load out of the alh dhruv wsi includes 8 - 16 anti tank missiles ,2 rocket pods and the giat 20mm cannon . however it's drawback compared to the lch would be reduced stealth and manouverability.

a comparable type of development is the bell cobra which was developed from the bell huey and became a very successfull attack helicopter.

the indian air force is the prime sponsor for the lch programme and has expressed an interest in acquiring upto 60 attack helicopters initially.
 

Centu_rion

New Member
Actually as an impartial observer, I would state that as per the CSIS report, India may look like a major player against Pakistan, but it would be very interesting to see how it stacks up against China.

Also the comment by Lord of Lords that India has never accepted the partition of the subcontinent cannot be held true, since India has defeated Pakistan twice since independence, yet has never tried to assimilate Pakistan. I think that the Indians know that they would be faced with an insurgency that would be a waste of resources and personnel.

India also lacks true attack helicopters, but doesnt the possession of the Harrier act as an adequate equalizer since it allows the combination of VTOL manueverability with the higher top speed.
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Even a VTOL can not compared to an attack helicopter. A VTOL like the Harrier remains a fighter/attacker and will never fly like an attack helicopter. And attack helicopter often enough moves more like a ground vehicle.
 

kams

New Member
Waylander said:
Even a VTOL can not compared to an attack helicopter. A VTOL like the Harrier remains a fighter/attacker and will never fly like an attack helicopter. And attack helicopter often enough moves more like a ground vehicle.
Very true. Only real attack helicopter India has is two squadrons of Mi35.

While there is a major ongoing effort to boost the helicopter squadrons in both IA and IAF (80 new Mi-17 for IAF ordered 150+ already in service, 120 ALH Dhruv on order by IA, 195 Light Utility/scout helicoter on the verge of order for IA to replace old Cheetah) very little is known about procuring a dedicated Attack Helicopter. As AAditya pointed out, LCH is being evolved from ALH. Half of IA's ALH are supposed to be armed with anti-tank missiles and rockets. Not sure whether any of the armed versions are in service though.
 
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vijayshimla

New Member
Every defence effort by India can not be seen as Pakistan Centric-India is a nation six times the size and with 10 times the GDP ( which will only grow )- and has some very long borders and as Naipaul says it is a nation of a thousand mutinies. I really feel that India must have a Helicopter fleet of at-least 1000 helicopters- considering the varied topography of our nation. Actually regarding the matter of 120 ALH production by HAL- one really doubts wether in its present state- HAL can produce 120 ALH on time & on schedule. India will have to get the latest production tech from Europe or USA to be able to keep up with this most urgent force multiplier requirement.
 

kams

New Member
vijayshimla said:
Every defence effort by India can not be seen as Pakistan Centric-India is a nation six times the size and with 10 times the GDP ( which will only grow )- and has some very long borders and as Naipaul says it is a nation of a thousand mutinies. I really feel that India must have a Helicopter fleet of at-least 1000 helicopters- considering the varied topography of our nation. Actually regarding the matter of 120 ALH production by HAL- one really doubts wether in its present state- HAL can produce 120 ALH on time & on schedule. India will have to get the latest production tech from Europe or USA to be able to keep up with this most urgent force multiplier requirement.
Care to enlighten us on the current status of HAL? Also as you are talking about technology, I would like to know what you think about the technology behind ALH as compared to say Bell 407 Shen? Leave apart the fact that they are different class of helicpters but about Rotors, Controls, Cockpit instruments etc.
 

kams

New Member
powerslavenegi said:
That should answer many questions on lch.

more about dhruv.
I wanted Vijays comments of technical aspects of ALH vs a 'Imported ' heli. He has a aversion to anything indigenous and makes all enveloping statements.
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
kams said:
I wanted Vijays comments of technical aspects of ALH vs a 'Imported ' heli. He has a aversion to anything indigenous and makes all enveloping statements.
this is what bell has to offer compare it with dhruv If one compares the weight and other performance stats both look similar but I think Bell's avionics,survivability and I guess its world known reliability gave it an edge over the indeginous version.
 

kams

New Member
powerslavenegi said:
this is what bell has to offer compare it with dhruv If one compares the weight and other performance stats both look similar but I think Bell's avionics,survivability and I guess its world known reliability gave it an edge over the indeginous version.
Why you feel that we are buying the ARH version of 407? In any case the hingeless main rotor blades made of carbon composites are way ahead of Bell 407. As for avionics, may be you should take look at the cabin pics of both ALH and 407.
 
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vijayshimla

New Member
One wonders how many are real life pilots amongst us! ( I am! ) When it comes to real life flying- one is looking at up time- reliability- avionics- etc etc etc., a helo is a very complex machine- and Bell has been doing it far longer than any body else & they have manufactured more helos- than all other manufacturers combined, also so has Eurocopter manufactured a lot of advanced tech helos even US Army is buying these-Not many ALH are getting sold in real world markets. ( no because it is an inferior helo- but because of not so fantastic rep. of the manufacturer.!! I am not putting down India- what i am against is- they way the public enterprises like HAL are managed by Babus who rule, and they can not be efficient, What is in doubt is the managerial capabilities of HAL, not the tech they can develop- because tech is by scientists & engineers, in which we excell !- But to manage a giant enterprise like HAL the way every public enterprise is managed in India is expecting too much from a Babu. Giant Aero enterprises like Bell, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, are not managed by scientists, but by Super Managers with giant manegerial skills!!
 

kams

New Member
vijayshimla said:
One wonders how many are real life pilots amongst us! ( I am! ) When it comes to real life flying- one is looking at up time- reliability- avionics- etc etc etc., a helo is a very complex machine- and Bell has been doing it far longer than any body else & they have manufactured more helos- than all other manufacturers combined, also so has Eurocopter manufactured a lot of advanced tech helos even US Army is buying these-Not many ALH are getting sold in real world markets. ( no because it is an inferior helo- but because of not so fantastic rep. of the manufacturer.!! I am not putting down India- what i am against is- they way the public enterprises like HAL are managed by Babus who rule, and they can not be efficient, What is in doubt is the managerial capabilities of HAL, not the tech they can develop- because tech is by scientists & engineers, in which we excell !- But to manage a giant enterprise like HAL the way every public enterprise is managed in India is expecting too much from a Babu. Giant Aero enterprises like Bell, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, are not managed by scientists, but by Super Managers with giant manegerial skills!!
You are talking about different things here.
1. Development of Indigenous products
2. Quality of developed products.

Project management comes in to play to ensure efficient development cycle. Its true that Aviation giants like Bell, Boeing, LM etc will beat the crap out of NAL/HAL anytime. I am not disputing that. Heck I will be the first one to cry about DRDO and our legendary babus. Anytime you want to kick a babus butt, you can count on me to join in.

I am glad that atleast you agree that the product that came out (very late yes) is not bad. Thats what I am arguing too. I am not a flag holder for all products that are indigenous and foreign stuff are bad. But if we have a indigenous good product, I am all for it. And ALH is darn GOOD.

I am also not saying ALH is a substitute for 407. Its not, and they are in different class. 407 is a proven heli, and good for the role intended for. However its not technologically more advanced than ALH.

HAL is delivering ALH on schedule after the hicup with tail rotor. Till now they have delivered 72 helicopters to Indian Defence forces and will deliver 50 more by the end of this year. The rate of delivery from next year will be around 40/year (to armed forces). Total requirement is 120 for Army, 150 for Airforce, and 40 for Navy. Not sure how many for Coast Guard and civilian use. Thats good rate of production.

Army has projected a requirement of 65 lch.

BTW I am not a pilot, are you in IAF or civie?
 

aaaditya

New Member
hey kams calling alh good is an understatement ,it is one of the most advanced helicopters in the world as of now.the only problem is marketing the helicopter,earlier india had signed a joint marketting deal with israel but now eurocopter is interested in marketing this helicopter with hal.
 

Diablo

New Member
i think India and Pakistan are in balanced position otherwise they would have wiped themselves up long ago.
 
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