MiG News

[ROCK45]

Training

Why would India wait until less than a year away from getting the Fulcrums to begin training? Wouldn't the maintenance personnel at least begin their training? We’re talking about a different engine, radar, and weapons systems not to mention modern cockpit, all things that need to be serviced. This doesn't sound right something isn't working.
Or
India's government isn't flipping out having a 20 aircraft deal go into the fifth years because the radar is getting close to completion. IAF is just waiting for the best equipment they can get.

I guess were finding out in 2009.

 

[nevidimka]

This is the 1st time India is buying a carrier plane that takes of normally right? So there may be some longer time taken to be good in handling those planes.

Also if there is something wrong in Mig being able to deliver the good,s INdia wouldnt have increased the order for the planes.

Also this may sound stupid, the picture I posted, between the yellow and the grey which are the composite structures? I'm thingking the grey. Am I right?

 

[ROCK45]

Yellow

1. This is the first time India is buying carrier base Mig-29's but five years is way too long. Russia's aircraft industry has built naval fighters before so there not inventing the wheel here.

2. I have no idea in the world why India would increase and aircraft order on a aircraft that's took five years to build and is late. And for a carrier which is also late and untested. Think of all the equipment and systems, and sub-systems that are involved a aircraft carrier to begin with that must function correctly. A carrier is too valuable an asset to put to sea without everything working 100%. Did India wait five years for the first Flankers? On a personnel note would you buy something from somebody or some company who's five years late? I have no idea why India's government still wants to go down this route or even think of them for the MRCA purchases, do they magically think things will get better?

Since you follow Indian topics do you know if the current Indian Mig-29 upgrade proposal is even moving? Wanted to know is it the slowness of the Indian government at fault or is MIG to blame?

3. I think composite is the yellow parts myself. Both the Fulcrum and Flanker designs would benefit greatly if more composite could be used.

 

[Feanor]

India increased the order because it's an advanced fighter that shares commonality with its existing Fuclrum fleet, and thus will be far easier on pilot training and maintenance. Morever they were bound by the original order of iirc 19 planes. Having two different carrier-based fighters, with only a handful of each in service makes no sense, hence why they probably decided to use the 29K for their future indigenous carrier.

 

[nevidimka]

Perhaps, India wanted the stall in production due to the delay in the the carrier delivery? There's no point in having those carrier planes clocking up flying hours from an air base b4 it actually operates from a carrier where it is supposed to operate from?

 

[ROCK45]

Mig-29k

I agree the first order needed to be doubled one squadron just isn't enough nor cost effective. Five years for what 19 aircraft is too long and this just a reflection on MIG management.

India wanted the stall in production due to the delay in the the carrier delivery

Maybe Salty Dog could answer better then I on how carrier pilots are trained, I'm pretty sure much of there early training does not involved landing on real carriers. There is still a good share of work up for a new type like the Mig-29k, I realized that India shares commonality with the other Fulcrums India has but there are some changes. I couldn't see why India wouldn't want 30 or 40 trained up pilots and a fair number of trained Navy maintainers. Operating fast jets is a huge undertaking for India's Navy. Supporting a Air Wing from shore facilities is another huge project by itself at least getting the aircraft portion of that going would have been helpful long term. Maybe I just found the hold up and why no pressure from India is being dished out.

 

[Salty Dog]

US Navy fighter pilots go through the Carrier Strike Pilot training syllabus pipeline which consists of Primary Training, Intermediate Jet Training and Advance Strike Training. The latter includes final carrier qualifications.

According to the article below 32 IN pilots are programmed for Advanced Strike Training with the US Navy. They might start at the Intermediate Jet Training, especially if they already are helicopter or fixed wing pilots.

Indian Pilot Records First At Sea Qualification Aboard Carrier

The Brazilian Navy started out with Intermediate Jet Training in Argentina for experienced pilots then completed the Advanced Strike Training with the US Navy. They now train new pilots in the US Navy with the full US training syllabus. They still have to transition thier pilots to the A-4 in Brazil.

What this means is that the IN pilots will receive their initial carrier qualifications with the US Navy (and earn the US Navy gold "wings") but will still have to transition to the Mig-29K and carrier qual with those. The downside is between graduation at Pensacola and actually landing a Mig-29K on a carrier will take several years, a long time for a carrier pilot to go without any traps.

 

[harryriedl]

US Navy fighter pilots go through the Carrier Strike Pilot training syllabus pipeline which consists of Primary Training, Intermediate Jet Training and Advance Strike Training. The latter includes final carrier qualifications.

According to the article below 32 IN pilots are programmed for Advanced Strike Training with the US Navy. They might start at the Intermediate Jet Training, especially if they already are helicopter or fixed wing pilots.

Indian Pilot Records First At Sea Qualification Aboard Carrier

The Brazilian Navy started out with Intermediate Jet Training in Argentina for experienced pilots then completed the Advanced Strike Training with the US Navy. They now train new pilots in the US Navy with the full US training syllabus. They still have to transition thier pilots to the A-4 in Brazil.

What this means is that the IN pilots will receive their initial carrier qualifications with the US Navy (and earn the US Navy gold "wings") but will still have to transition to the Mig-29K and carrier qual with those. The downside is between graduation at Pensacola and actually landing a Mig-29K on a carrier will take several years, a long time for a carrier pilot to go without any traps.

and landing on Gorskov is a very different matter to landing on a CVN. If Gorskov is delayed any more wouldn't the Indian pilots have to re qualify on the CVN. I can image accidents will happen more frequently in Gorskov

 

[Feanor]

Indian pilots will probably be allowed to use Russian carrier training facilities. Quite possible that a facility of that type will be built in India.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Indian pilots will probably be allowed to use Russian carrier training facilities. Quite possible that a facility of that type will be built in India.

I'd say so considering they are building indigenous carriers, they wont want to outsource their training requirements indefinitely.

 

[nevidimka]

So, the Indian navy pilots are learning how to take off from a ski jump in America. Splendid.

 

[Salty Dog]

So, the Indian navy pilots are learning how to take off from a ski jump in America. Splendid.

Negatory mate. The Indian pilots get the exact same training as any US Navy pilot. The US does not work with a ski jump, as you should already know, the US Navy is CATOBAR.

STOBAR training will have to be done in Russia or India.

 

[ReAl PrOeLiTeZ]

So, the Indian navy pilots are learning how to take off from a ski jump in America. Splendid.

USA Navy dont have Ski Jump carriers within their inventory, or need that sort of training as all their carriers are catapault driven. Maybe soon magnetic.

 

[nevidimka]

Negatory mate. The Indian pilots get the exact same training as any US Navy pilot. The US does not work with a ski jump, as you should already know, the US Navy is CATOBAR.

STOBAR training will have to be done in Russia or India.

I was being sarcastic.

 

[aaaditya]

Indian pilots will probably be allowed to use Russian carrier training facilities. Quite possible that a facility of that type will be built in India.

india is also setting up carrier training facilities ,including i believe mockup of the carrier deck at the dabolim naval air base in goa.this will go a long way at developing the carrier landing skills of the mig29 pilots,dabolim will be the home base of the mig29k with all the requisite maintainence and training facilities being set up there,this would be where the mig29's would be based whenever the carrier is at port or undergoing a major refit.

 

[harryriedl]

india is also setting up carrier training facilities ,including i believe mockup of the carrier deck at the dabolim naval air base in goa.this will go a long way at developing the carrier landing skills of the mig29 pilots,dabolim will be the home base of the mig29k with all the requisite maintainence and training facilities being set up there,this would be where the mig29's would be based whenever the carrier is at port or undergoing a major refit.

why Dabolim? As they can only use it for 1/2 a day because of the civilian side there must be better bases to use than Dabolim. The charter flights which arrive quite frequently plus local flights must create huge training issues for training IN airman in plane their unfamiliar with.
Couldn't maint be shared IAF as having its own log tail for 29K seems like unnecessary duplication for only 14 planes [yes I know there planning more its 14 at present] When the IAF has its own large fleet of similar aircraft

 

[Salty Dog]

india is also setting up carrier training facilities ,including i believe mockup of the carrier deck at the dabolim naval air base in goa.this will go a long way at developing the carrier landing skills of the mig29 pilots,dabolim will be the home base of the mig29k with all the requisite maintainence and training facilities being set up there,this would be where the mig29's would be based whenever the carrier is at port or undergoing a major refit.

An indispensable piece of gear for landing on carriers and practice airfields is the visual landing reference system (FLOLS/IFLOLS in the USN) or widely known as the "meatball". Does anyone know what system the new carriers and airfield will use?

 

[ROCK45]

harryriedl
why Dabolim? As they can only use it for 1/2 a day because of the civilian side there must be better bases to use than Dabolim. The charter flights which arrive quite frequently plus local flights must create huge training issues for training IN airman in plane their unfamiliar with.

Is the above true about the location picked for India's Navy carrier Wing while on land? Is the civilian side out range of hand held SAM's or mortars? The reason I bring it up I just read someplace that some train passes close to another base in India and the military or government was concern.

aaaditya
dabolim will be the home base of the mig29k with all the requisite maintainence and training facilities being set up there,this would be where the mig29's would be based whenever the carrier is at port or undergoing a major refit.

Do you know how far along the construction is? Will this facility be ready before the carrier gets delivered? Do you know if India's Navy been planning on using this base for this purpose since 2004 when the Fulcrum deal was signed?

Could India's Navy take over both sides of the facilities in time? Maybe that's the planned route being taken. I would hate to see the Indian Navy pilots finish all they training and finally get the carrier but not have a finished base.

I have questions about the carrier as well about what operating state will it be in when it's delivered but that's sort of a moot point right now. I'm sure in time India's Navy will release that kind of information when the time is right.

 

[harryriedl]

Is the above true about the location picked for India's Navy carrier Wing while on land? Is the civilian side out range of hand held SAM's or mortars? The reason I bring it up I just read someplace that some train passes close to another base in India and the military or government was concern.

nope its on the other side of the runway [ive flow in to dabline 2 times] both times the plane has to pass though the navy side of airport to its apron by small civilian terminal both the Navy/Air force have to use the same area as the civilian flights its a short walk across for ethir side sams mortars though inadvisable is perfectly possible guards would be the only thing to stop it happering

 

[ROCK45]

Location

Thanks harryriedl
Doesn't seem like the right location for such a huge investment in time and money on India's part.

I am a Fulcrum fan but question why it takes MIG five years to build 16 fighters and a few two seat models, I don't want to start coming down on India's military choice on where to put their bases, a matter I know nothing about. I must assume India's Navy knows what their doing or they wouldn't pick this location. I hope India's pilots get the best training they can get and wish them all the luck in the world.

In a positive way I can't wait until India's Navy starts releasing information on the new K model Fulcrums on what it can do.