Correct me if I'm wrong, though it weighs as much as the russian KV- and IS-series, the Panther pretty much seems a medium tank in the German inventory (developed in response to T-34), certainly in comparision to e.g. Tiger II (67 ton) and even Tiger I (55 ton). In terms of German production rates, it was mass-produced: 6000 Panthers were made, compared to 8500 PzKw IV, 9419 Stug III, 1347 Tiger I and 489 Tiger II, 1100 Stug IV and 392 Jagdpanther. That on the whole german production wasn't as large scale and efficient as US or Russia's is seperate from choices in tank design (which is reflected more in the ratio of tankdestroyers to tanks).
Maus and Russians
- Thread starter carman1877
- Start date
You're actually right. The Panther I and the Pzkpfw IV are both medium tanks, and are essentially the two more successful German tanks, not due to their individual efficiency (though that they certainly were) but primarily due to the fact that they were delivered to the front in numbers.
You're right.
Also please consider that thanks produce does not necessary meant that they are field on the front line. It take time.
Tanks like JSIII, pershing are all at their infant stage when they were introduced. They does not really contribute to the war but to the cold war maybe.
World War II is all about production war.... even the Japanese Admiral said to his staff when they decided to attack the American.
"Do not underestimate the industrial power of the American..."
World War II is an industrial war.... who can produce more material and faster.... As for manpower, everybody is shortage. Every country is in need of a driver.... Please remember how many cars are there in the world then and how many really know how to drive.....Don't compare now... In the 30s, I think there is only 1 in every 30000 people knows how to drive.
Also please consider that thanks produce does not necessary meant that they are field on the front line. It take time.
Tanks like JSIII, pershing are all at their infant stage when they were introduced. They does not really contribute to the war but to the cold war maybe.
World War II is all about production war.... even the Japanese Admiral said to his staff when they decided to attack the American.
"Do not underestimate the industrial power of the American..."
World War II is an industrial war.... who can produce more material and faster.... As for manpower, everybody is shortage. Every country is in need of a driver.... Please remember how many cars are there in the world then and how many really know how to drive.....Don't compare now... In the 30s, I think there is only 1 in every 30000 people knows how to drive.
Beatmaster
New Member
The germans did have some tanks in service that are good and strong compared to the allied tanks and russian tanks specially in the first 2.5 years of the war.
In the beginning of the war the germans did have enough very heavy tanks that the allies could not match remeber a Tiger tanks? for example
They really did kick ass in the starting of the war and even in the end of the war these tanks did maintain there status as badass and very strong foe.
Specially in the hands of some skilled crew they could be devastating as history clearly shows.
but after some time the American tank industry put all the battle field knowlegd into new types and design's that could match or even outmatch the german tanks and armoured vehicles.
The Maus:
The Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus (Sd.Kfz 205) was a German super-heavy tank design, and the heaviest tank to reach the complete working prototype stage in World War II. The basic design known as the VK7001/Porsche Type 205 was suggested by Ferdinand Porsche to Adolf Hitler in June 1942, who subsequently approved it. The design up to then had been the culmination of work done by Porsche who had won the contract for the heavy tank that March. Work on the design began in earnest; the first prototype, to be ready in 1943 was initially to receive the name Mammut (Ger. "Mammoth"). This was reportedly changed to Mäuschen (Little Mouse) in December 1942 and finally Maus (Mouse) in February 1943.
(For more info visit this link.)
Type Superheavy tank
Place of origin Nazi Germany
Specifications
Weight 188 tonnes
Length 10.09 m
Width 3.67 m
Height 3.63 m
Crew 6
Armor 60 - 240 mm
Primary armament 128 mm KwK44 L/55
Secondary armament co-axial 75 mm KwK 44 L/36.5
7.92 mm MG34
Engine MB517 Diesel 1200 hp (895 kW)
Power/weight 6.4 hp/tonne
Operational range 160 km on roads, 62 km off road
Speed 13 km/h
As i already wrote the Allies and Russian learned from the early war where germany did have a huge advantage but after a few years battle this advantage was shrinking due the ever increasing numbers of weapons that put into service to remove this madman.
But also the way the tanks did get build changed very rapidly and they got more advanced by the minute so eventually the allies beat the germans not only with numbers but also with better technology.
But the germans did made some nice stuff and the Americans for example did try also to create there own version of the maus because you must admitt that if this tank could be build in a more mobile way than it would be certainly
a badass tank that really kick ass.
Anyway here the US version of the maus:
The T28 (later called 105 mm Gun Motor Carriage T95) was a prototype heavily armoured tank destroyer, designed for the US Military during World War II. It was originally designed to be used to break through German defenses at the Siegfried Line, and was later considered as a possible participant in an invasion of the Japanese mainland. Although sometimes referred to as a super-heavy tank the T28 was, in reality, a very heavy tank destroyer, and was re-designated as the 105 mm Gun Motor Carriage T95 in 1945. In 1946 it was renamed again, to T-28.
The T-28 was designed and manufactured by Pacific Car and Foundry Co. The original plan was for five prototype vehicles with a production total of 25.However only two were ordered and neither saw combat. One was heavily damaged by an engine fire during trials and was scrapped. The remaining prototype was discovered abandoned in a back field at Fort Belvoir. It is the only remaining example of these tanks and can be viewed at the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor in Kentucky. Its total weight when fully equipped would have reached 95 short tons. Because of the tank destroyer's great weight, it used four tracks instead of two, at 12.9" wide. The outer tracks could be detached for easier transport. After removal they could be fixed together to make a unit that could be towed behind the tank.
Type Tank destroyer
Place of origin United States
Specifications
Weight 95 short tons / 86.2 metric tons / 85 long tons
Length 11.1 m (36' 6")
Width 4.39 m (14' 11")
Height 2.84 m (9' 4")
Crew 4
Armor 12" (305 mm)
Primary armament 105 mm T5E1 gun
62 rounds
Secondary armament 1 x .50 cal machine gun
660 rounds
Engine Ford GAF V-8 gasoline
500 hp (372 kW)
Power/weight 4 hp/tonne
Suspension double track
Operational range 160 km
Speed 13 km/h
(See this link for more info)
I could not find a Russian version of this one but iam sure that there would be one that fit these specific's because the Germans and Americans/British did have a ton of new type's, but the Russians went crazy with building all type's of new weapons they produced so many that it is hard to say what type actually matches this German Maus.
In the beginning of the war the germans did have enough very heavy tanks that the allies could not match remeber a Tiger tanks? for example
They really did kick ass in the starting of the war and even in the end of the war these tanks did maintain there status as badass and very strong foe.
Specially in the hands of some skilled crew they could be devastating as history clearly shows.
but after some time the American tank industry put all the battle field knowlegd into new types and design's that could match or even outmatch the german tanks and armoured vehicles.
The Maus:
The Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus (Sd.Kfz 205) was a German super-heavy tank design, and the heaviest tank to reach the complete working prototype stage in World War II. The basic design known as the VK7001/Porsche Type 205 was suggested by Ferdinand Porsche to Adolf Hitler in June 1942, who subsequently approved it. The design up to then had been the culmination of work done by Porsche who had won the contract for the heavy tank that March. Work on the design began in earnest; the first prototype, to be ready in 1943 was initially to receive the name Mammut (Ger. "Mammoth"). This was reportedly changed to Mäuschen (Little Mouse) in December 1942 and finally Maus (Mouse) in February 1943.
(For more info visit this link.)
Type Superheavy tank
Place of origin Nazi Germany
Specifications
Weight 188 tonnes
Length 10.09 m
Width 3.67 m
Height 3.63 m
Crew 6
Armor 60 - 240 mm
Primary armament 128 mm KwK44 L/55
Secondary armament co-axial 75 mm KwK 44 L/36.5
7.92 mm MG34
Engine MB517 Diesel 1200 hp (895 kW)
Power/weight 6.4 hp/tonne
Operational range 160 km on roads, 62 km off road
Speed 13 km/h
As i already wrote the Allies and Russian learned from the early war where germany did have a huge advantage but after a few years battle this advantage was shrinking due the ever increasing numbers of weapons that put into service to remove this madman.
But also the way the tanks did get build changed very rapidly and they got more advanced by the minute so eventually the allies beat the germans not only with numbers but also with better technology.
But the germans did made some nice stuff and the Americans for example did try also to create there own version of the maus because you must admitt that if this tank could be build in a more mobile way than it would be certainly
a badass tank that really kick ass.
Anyway here the US version of the maus:
The T28 (later called 105 mm Gun Motor Carriage T95) was a prototype heavily armoured tank destroyer, designed for the US Military during World War II. It was originally designed to be used to break through German defenses at the Siegfried Line, and was later considered as a possible participant in an invasion of the Japanese mainland. Although sometimes referred to as a super-heavy tank the T28 was, in reality, a very heavy tank destroyer, and was re-designated as the 105 mm Gun Motor Carriage T95 in 1945. In 1946 it was renamed again, to T-28.
The T-28 was designed and manufactured by Pacific Car and Foundry Co. The original plan was for five prototype vehicles with a production total of 25.However only two were ordered and neither saw combat. One was heavily damaged by an engine fire during trials and was scrapped. The remaining prototype was discovered abandoned in a back field at Fort Belvoir. It is the only remaining example of these tanks and can be viewed at the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor in Kentucky. Its total weight when fully equipped would have reached 95 short tons. Because of the tank destroyer's great weight, it used four tracks instead of two, at 12.9" wide. The outer tracks could be detached for easier transport. After removal they could be fixed together to make a unit that could be towed behind the tank.
Type Tank destroyer
Place of origin United States
Specifications
Weight 95 short tons / 86.2 metric tons / 85 long tons
Length 11.1 m (36' 6")
Width 4.39 m (14' 11")
Height 2.84 m (9' 4")
Crew 4
Armor 12" (305 mm)
Primary armament 105 mm T5E1 gun
62 rounds
Secondary armament 1 x .50 cal machine gun
660 rounds
Engine Ford GAF V-8 gasoline
500 hp (372 kW)
Power/weight 4 hp/tonne
Suspension double track
Operational range 160 km
Speed 13 km/h
(See this link for more info)
I could not find a Russian version of this one but iam sure that there would be one that fit these specific's because the Germans and Americans/British did have a ton of new type's, but the Russians went crazy with building all type's of new weapons they produced so many that it is hard to say what type actually matches this German Maus.
Just a short comment from me.
People often tend to make the impact which equipment had on the Panzerwaffe look bigger than it really was.
While it is right that there were some good designs comin out of German design teams one should look at the other factors which caused the success of German tank forces.
Training, tactics, organization and communication should all be rated higher. They were what caused the success during the days of the blitzkrieg and not some advantage when it came to equipment.
The diminishing of these advantages together with the impossible task to compete economically with the allies and SU where the death bell for the german superiority and not some minor statistics concerning tank designs.
Not that it isn't interesting to talk about these designs and their flaws and merits.
People often tend to make the impact which equipment had on the Panzerwaffe look bigger than it really was.
While it is right that there were some good designs comin out of German design teams one should look at the other factors which caused the success of German tank forces.
Training, tactics, organization and communication should all be rated higher. They were what caused the success during the days of the blitzkrieg and not some advantage when it came to equipment.
The diminishing of these advantages together with the impossible task to compete economically with the allies and SU where the death bell for the german superiority and not some minor statistics concerning tank designs.
Not that it isn't interesting to talk about these designs and their flaws and merits.
Indeed. Look at what the Wehrmacht invaded Poland, Denmark, Norway or the Netherlands with. Not exactly impressive equipment - in time for the invasion of Poland, Germany had only one division equipped with a then "modern" outfit of Pz III and Pz IV, while the other five armoured divisions and all light divisions relied on Pz I and Pz II. Equipment numbers also varied extremely between divisions.
That has actually always been my argument. German tanks were inferior in quality to Soviet, and even French and British conterparts. They were also usually available in inferior numbers. Tactics, excellent officers, and proper doctrine for the tanks was far more important.
Don't talk about Maus, just look at KingTiger.
It is nearly a beast on the field. Superb firepower with the 88mmL71. Extreme 150mm at the front and slope. But in war, not every unit is always in engagement.
The Maus no matter how big is just a dot on a map. Where to deploy a beast to block all front. It is still vunerable to air attack.
Even Kingtiger has special track to go up a track to load up a train. Please remember we are talking about 1940 to 1945... how many roads and bridges can support this beast from crossing. Even the smaller Tiger I is already a problem crossing as such they have developed a special snorking for it. Logistic this beast is a nightmare.
Remember Jadgtiger, it is so prone to breakdown.
These tanks are just fantasy for games player and should contribute near or nothing to the war effort. They are just another S&W 500. Too powerful for a hand gun, a good range effect range of 120m but not many people can fire a gun with accuracy to that range.
Just like .50 AE, in the end the most successful is still on a rifle like Trommix Jackhammer but who the hell want a pistol round on a rifle and when you go to war with it, you find that alot the guys beside you is using bullets that you can't replaced easily.... How many people seen a Desert Eagle in action, it is just in practical to use a .50 AE.
How about the "Thunder boss" using a AR15 frame work with .50 Cal but you have to be very friendly to the Mech Infantry because they are the only one has 50 Cal. bullets.
These are all fantasy weapon, use by game play only.... yes, they can kill, nobody is dening it but can they be effective use on the ground is a problem.
Deployment of the JadgTiger is already a limit.......
It is nearly a beast on the field. Superb firepower with the 88mmL71. Extreme 150mm at the front and slope. But in war, not every unit is always in engagement.
The Maus no matter how big is just a dot on a map. Where to deploy a beast to block all front. It is still vunerable to air attack.
Even Kingtiger has special track to go up a track to load up a train. Please remember we are talking about 1940 to 1945... how many roads and bridges can support this beast from crossing. Even the smaller Tiger I is already a problem crossing as such they have developed a special snorking for it. Logistic this beast is a nightmare.
Remember Jadgtiger, it is so prone to breakdown.
These tanks are just fantasy for games player and should contribute near or nothing to the war effort. They are just another S&W 500. Too powerful for a hand gun, a good range effect range of 120m but not many people can fire a gun with accuracy to that range.
Just like .50 AE, in the end the most successful is still on a rifle like Trommix Jackhammer but who the hell want a pistol round on a rifle and when you go to war with it, you find that alot the guys beside you is using bullets that you can't replaced easily.... How many people seen a Desert Eagle in action, it is just in practical to use a .50 AE.
How about the "Thunder boss" using a AR15 frame work with .50 Cal but you have to be very friendly to the Mech Infantry because they are the only one has 50 Cal. bullets.
These are all fantasy weapon, use by game play only.... yes, they can kill, nobody is dening it but can they be effective use on the ground is a problem.
Deployment of the JadgTiger is already a limit.......
Pershing was deployed much later in the war, thanks to Patton. He is one of them against the program during development. It is always logistic first. Yes it is indeed a good tank but the industrial has to re-machine alot of tools to manufature these tanks and month of production will be lost.
Js-1 is still testing their 122mm gun. Good armour and firepower but 122mm gun reloading time is still extreme slow. They perfect the tank only on Js-10. Which they later felt that they were going the wrong way and start T-54.
Firefly was a tin can with a gun that can deal with the Panther but lack the speed and protection.