malaysia n singapore arms race

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paskal

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storywolf said:
Till now - all evident of 9:1 kill is your words only - Please prove it - stated the link of the website .

Please do not give us tom or dick website .... that is without solid evidence - as it seem to be culture or habit you have using heard say information without facts.:eek:nfloorl:
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http://www.flymig.com/forum/posts/1086197524.htm?string=Su-30 vs f-15

check it ou if you dont belieeve me:nutkick

mod edit:

Someone's unqualified opinion on a defence forum is NOT fact.

Don't believe ME? I just did the same thing as that site did below, except I referenced myself in THIS website.


Your contention is ridiculous. You have NO idea what that exercise was about or what happened on it.

You have NO idea what the purpose of the exercise was, what the rules of engagement were, what the restrictions on the USAF were (for instance they were NOT allowed to use AMRAAM whilst the IAF did use BVR weapons).

Quoting it makes you look foolish and ignorant. I'd suggest you forget about it.
 
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Red

New Member
go to the flymig website then then well see whose the 15 year old k!
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The Flymig web-site belongs to a company which offers rides for Russians and tourists on Russian jets( which I think they purchased from the Russian government..did not read everything but I took one look and that was enough for me).

Here is a quote; "FlyMiG.Com was founded in 2002 after being in business for two years by licensed pilots, pilot-instructors, aviation professionals who flew back in Russia and Soviet Union and best travel agents for Russian Destination."

As mentioned, there has never been any encounter between the F-15SG/K and the Sukhoi 30s to discern respective capabilities. What we get from the net are inflated figures from Russian sources as usual and nationalistic comments. Boeing, in particular, hardly see the need to disclose many of thier figures. They do not have too. Thier reputation is well-known and they do not need to market thier goods that much.

Given the relative balance of forces, I believe most would consider one nation to have a more modern and capable force than the other already. An arms race occurs when two (or more) countries of near parity attempt to surpass the other. If there is no parity between the forces, then an arms race cannot occur.
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True. Truth be told, I think the countries in this region are quite comfortable with the status quo. Upgrading of weaponry is a temporal issue that happens all the time.

The Malaysians spend approximately $ 7 billion Ringgit on security which I think also encompasses home security such as the police, etc. That amounts to about $ 2.0 billion USD dollars. But because the latter budget also includes allocations for the police, etc, the Malaysian defence ministry`s budget ought to be even smaller.

Source:
http://www.pmo.gov.my/WebNotesApp/Abdullah.nsf/hv_PMKiniSemasaNew/57AD491D0E67115F4825734F003607AA

Singapore spends approximately $10.6 billion Singapore dollars this year on defence which amounts to $ 7.01 USD billion dollars. The budget has been increasing all the time. Either it is kept the same or it is increased.

Source:
http://www.mof.gov.sg/budget_2007/revenue_expenditure/attachment/MINDEF_EE2007.pdf

Unlike Malaysia, Singapore`s expenditure for home security is made under the budget`s allocation for the Ministry of Home Affairs. That amounts to about $ 2.6 billion Singapore dollars or $ 1.72 billion USD dollars.

Source:
http://www.mof.gov.sg/budget_2007/revenue_expenditure/attachment/MHA_EE2007.pdf


If we are to add up the two to compare against the Malaysian allocation for security(defence + home security), it would be approximately $ 8.72 USD billion for Singapore versus $ 2 USD billion for Malaysia.


Feel free to correct my figures.
Edit: Sorry, I`ve messed up the links. I`ve edited them for your perusal now :)
 
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Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
paskal said:
http://www.flymig.com/forum/posts/1086197524.htm?string=Su-30 vs f-15

check it ou if you dont belieeve me:nutkick
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You are aware the link you referenced was to a post on a forum that is part of the flymig.com website, correct? As such, the information could have been provided by anyone and depending on the quality of the forum, might very well have been without any vetting.

Which having read through some of the related posts to see the quality they contain, I have to consider likely.

-Cheers
 
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LazerLordz

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
For those of us who've been there, worn the uniform and done that, this thread is a pile of crap that is increasingly irritating no less.

Kid, do everyone a favor. Read up on more credible defence news sources if you want to engage in decent debate. Else just sit back and observe the decorum first, before trying to rush out with all guns blazing.
 
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gary1910

New Member
IIRC during 90s , Amraam missile was offered to any nations that bought US planes, but the US govt setup a restriction for the buyers in East as well as South East Asia where the missiles would be kept by the US in Guam becos US would not like to be the first to introduce a new capability into the region.

So Thailand, Taiwan and Singapore accepted this restriction and bought them but were kept by US in Guam. Malaysia did not like this restriction, therefore they did not order any.

So in reality , no one was stopping MY from buying Amraam missle.

A few years back, they were released to the buyers( including SG) becos of the there were reports that China was getting R-77 from Russia, so the restriction does not apply anymore.

In fact, as recently as in 2005 , MY ordered a small qty of Amraam missile after the restriction has been lifted.

From SIPRI database:

USA
R: Malaysia 20 AIM-120C AMRAAM BVRAAM (2005) AIM-120C-5 version

Using the online database:

http://armstrade.sipri.org/

So do read up before posting anything you read from your local forum, becos I see a lot of Malaysians just like you who do not read up or do any research and started to post lot of craps like you did here.
 
C

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Someone like Paskal give the rest of us a chance to show how much smarter we are. :D So he does serve a purpose.
 
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weasel1962

New Member
Red said:
- Is this a presumption on your part because certainly it has never been reported that Malaysia purchased the Amraams. In fact, I recalled reading a report stating that Malaysia refused Amraams. Can you provide a link, etc? thanks
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Check out Malaysian Govt report to UN in 2005. 20 units of C-5 version imported.
http://disarmament.un.org/UN_REGISTER.nsf

The SIPRI database relied on this as source. I'd be a bit careful about relying on SIPRI cos it includes institute estimates.

Whilst lying to the UN is not out of the question, I think in this case, we can accept the Malaysian Govt's UN reporting as accurate cos there's no reason for them to do so.
 
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paskal Sniper

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its kinda true

the F-15's kill rate is 103 to 1 but the 1 loss was in training with india..the f-15's lost to indian su-30MKI in the INdo-us military exercise 2004..for more info go see www. rense .com /general58 /VVS .HTM (ignore the spaces..i put em there coz the blog doesnt let me put websites) The fact of F-15'S ARE BETTER THAN su 30's....mayb coz f-15 and su 30 are very compareble f15 has very good technology in it..Su-30 has very good agility..because of this nothing is better it all come down to tactics,strategy and the pilot...the better man wins..not the better aircraft
 
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Red

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the F-15's kill rate is 103 to 1 but the 1 loss was in training with india..the f-15's lost to indian su-30MKI in the INdo-us military exercise 2004..for more info go see www. rense .com /general58 /VVS .HTM (ignore the spaces..i put em there coz the blog doesnt let me put websites) The fact of F-15'S ARE BETTER THAN su 30's....mayb coz f-15 and su 30 are very compareble f15 has very good technology in it..Su-30 has very good agility..because of this nothing is better it all come down to tactics,strategy and the pilot...the better man wins..not the better aircraft
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Uh uh..did you not read what Aussie Digger wrote? The indian exercise was a Dact with a ROE that limits the capability of the F-15s; performance-wise, numbers, etc. They were also not the latest versions. That exercise was never a test-bed to see who comes up tops in an encounter between an f-15C and Sukhoi -30. You tend to get a lot of mis-information on the internet and often mixed with nationalistic content. If you are reading stuffs from a site like Rense.com or strategypage.com and believing them wholesale, then you are being mis-informed.

You have just created another login did`nt you..Paskal ?
 
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paskal Sniper

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listen to this

Judging by the research I have done F15 and SU-30 are very compareble aircraft..F-15 HAS good technoology..SU 30 has veryyy good Agility..these 2 aircraft are special in their own way..some ppl mite say their the same..I have no kill ratio of the su 30...but as for the f15 103 to 1...their 1 loss was in the INDO-US Military exercise and it was against an Su 30MKI..Well with planes so compareble it comes to down to the pilot,tactics,strategy and weapons.
for more info go to wikipedia or just type in any search engines=Indo-US military exercise 2004 0r su 30 vs f15..But anyway that statement had just proven SU 30 is better than F 15
 
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paskal Sniper

New Member
Red said:
Uh uh..did you not read what Aussie Digger wrote? The indian exercise was a Dact with a ROE that limits the capability of the F-15s; performance-wise, numbers, etc. They were also not the latest versions. That exercise was never a test-bed to see who comes up tops in an encounter between an f-15C and Sukhoi -30. You tend to get a lot of mis-information on the internet and often mixed with nationalistic content. If you are reading stuffs from a site like Rense.com or strategypage.com and believing them wholesale, then you are being mis-informed.

You have just created another login did`nt you..Paskal ?
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ERMM THIS AINT PASKAL..im a malaysian too but im not paskal
 
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paskal Sniper

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haha

storywolf...where did u get your facts btw pls pst it...
and i noe ure singaproean btw u talk..another thing u buy chickens frm malaysia..u want malaysia to stop selling the chickens to u...then no more chicken rice..then mayb u can buy chicken frm US or Russia
 
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Gripenator

Banned Member
Paskal (or your 'sniper' alter ego), tone down your unsubstantiated rhetoric.

I don't exactly see what chickens and rice have to do with the military balance between Singapore and Malaysia.


Regarding your comment about the F-15 and the Su-30, keep in mind that the F-15 and Su-30 variants (F-15C w/o AESA and Su-30K baseline-NOT the MKI) that participated in the COPE drills were not exactly top of the line variants unlike the F-15SG and Su-30MKM factored in this scenario.

Your comment that the Su-30 is superior does not make sense as you do not specify the variant, weather conditions affecting visibility and airspace clutter above the Johor Straits, flying hrs of pilots and most importantly tactics & AWACS/AEW guidance.

In terms of pure avionics/systems capability the F-15SG wins hands down-reliable sources indicate that primary BVR AMRAAMs supplied to the SAF are of the C-7 variant (105+km) vs (c.60-120km) for the AA-12 for the MAF SU-30MKM.

Secondly, the F-15SG's APG-63(V)3 AESA radar outperforms the Su-30MKM's BARS. If you mean the NIIP N011M BARS, that not an AESA. Its a PESA like the Rafale's RBE2. And, unfortunately, like the RBE2 it also has sensitivity problems due to the steering array and its range performance is actually slightly worse than an MSA of the same size used in other SU-30 models.

The other factors are variable daily so I can't comment much on them other than the flight time and training of F-15 SAF pilots who log about 2000 hrs at least in one year (based on USAF F-15 sortie rates as training will be completed along USAF lines) with biannual visits to Red Flag to simulate dogfights against "Su-30's" as well as visits from Israeli trainers-(88-0 at last count).

This is not to say that MAF pilots don't log substantial hrs too, but in this comparison, it seems the MAF will have to develop their own curriculum as I don't believe the contract includes Russian training-only tech. support.

On a final note, AWACS/AEW support for the SAF will be provided by 4 G550 Phalcon AWACS while the MAF has yet to induct any AWACs system-that gap is telling.
 
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storywolf

New Member
chicken rice ?

paskal Sniper said:
storywolf...where did u get your facts btw pls pst it...
and i noe ure singaproean btw u talk..another thing u buy chickens frm malaysia..u want malaysia to stop selling the chickens to u...then no more chicken rice..then mayb u can buy chicken frm US or Russia
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Asia time - "Thailand join the Missile Game" Nov 62003 By Richard S.Ehrlich
Quote:
"US policy regarding AMRAAMs is not to be the first to introduce that particular type of missile into a region unless other comparable missiles already exist there."
&
"The Bush administration told Congress earlier this year that Beijing's ability to relocate the missiles, and Russian offers to sell Adders to Malaysia, create an imminent threat justifying AMRAAM deliveries to Thailand and Singapore," Arms Control Today reported. Under the new arrangement, Singapore could receive up to 100 AMRAAMs, while Taiwan may receive 200, according to weapons monitors. "

It is a official news magzine not some forum - quoting some chicken seller !

What does chicken have to do with this topic ? Who care you want to sell your chicken to singapore or not. You do not want to sell , like you say we just buy from US and russia !!!

You complain about chicken talk ! Did you see anyone talk about chicken before you ? If you want to complain about talking chicken, you are complaining about yourself !
 
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storywolf

New Member
paskal Sniper said:
the F-15's kill rate is 103 to 1 but the 1 loss was in training with india..the f-15's lost to indian su-30MKI in the INdo-us military exercise 2004..for more info go see www. rense .com /general58 /VVS .HTM (ignore the spaces..i put em there coz the blog doesnt let me put websites) The fact of F-15'S ARE BETTER THAN su 30's....mayb coz f-15 and su 30 are very compareble f15 has very good technology in it..Su-30 has very good agility..because of this nothing is better it all come down to tactics,strategy and the pilot...the better man wins..not the better aircraft
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F-15 kill rate is 103 to 1 - that 1 loss is one of the F-15 fly too low and got hit by one of Paskal chicken !!!

Yep the new version of Amraam chicken breeded for one sole purpose to take down F-15

Mod edit:

I've closed this thread because it's going nowhere.

AD
 
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