Main difference between Tiger (EC) and Longbow

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Firepower each carries sufficient and equal amounts of firepower, the Apache doesnt have more firepower its just has more in quantity, being able to support armoured vehicles in the theatre for longer period engagment then the Tiger.
About the massive land invasion of tanks they aint gonna be lining up to be blown up by aerial ATGM without surface to air covergage.
The Apache can carry a greater number of Hellfire missiles (up to16x as opposed to 8x on the Tiger), guided and un-guided rockets (up to 76x compared to 52x on the Tiger) AND up to 4x Stinger AAM's with a full load of Hellfires, rockets or a combination, the Tiger cannot match these numbers irregardless of the configuration it operates in and in the final nail in the coffin, the Apache has a capacity for carriage of 1200x 30mm rounds, compared to 450x in the Tiger.


The Apache clearly carries greater firepower, which is it's intended role, afterall.

This doesn't make the Tiger less capable. It's role is not the same as the Apache, is all.
 

south

Well-Known Member
As AD said, slightly differing roles. However, if making a direct comparison of firepower, while the apache is capable of such mighty feats, can it a) carry the 16xhellfires and the 1200 rounds in the gun simultaneously, and b) what does such a load do to the range/endurance.

From my reading (Apache/Ed Macy) (Apache Dawn/Damien Lewis)...both books on UK Apache's in Afghanistan.

UK Apache's are certainly not carrying such loads routinely (more commonly 4-6 Hellfire, 16-32 odd rockets and ~320 Gun rounds. Believe they have just had armoured (?) self sealing fuel tanks delivered for greater endurance.

US Apache's have sacrificed their Longbow for greater lifting capability in the hot and high environment.

Lets not forget that helicopters are generally affected to a greater degree than fixed wing by a change in density altitude and I'm sure rarely go raging around with the configs listed by AD.
 

Firn

Active Member
Using the terrain for a covered approach and then attacking enemy tank columns with pop up tactics is exactly what the US wanted to do with their Apaches if the cold war would have turned hot.
And the Apache-Kiowa team was defenitely much more capable at this than the PAHs.
I might only add that the Apache was tailored to form a highly mobile operational reserve during the expected strategic defense with all the advantages. It would usually also operate over friendly territory in cooperation with all the other arms against heavy enemy concentrations in motion, which would have greatly mitigated the danger from enemy SAM and air.
 

HKSDU

New Member
The Apache can carry a greater number of Hellfire missiles (up to16x as opposed to 8x on the Tiger), guided and un-guided rockets (up to 76x compared to 52x on the Tiger) AND up to 4x Stinger AAM's with a full load of Hellfires, rockets or a combination, the Tiger cannot match these numbers irregardless of the configuration it operates in and in the final nail in the coffin, the Apache has a capacity for carriage of 1200x 30mm rounds, compared to 450x in the Tiger.


The Apache clearly carries greater firepower, which is it's intended role, afterall.

This doesn't make the Tiger less capable. It's role is not the same as the Apache, is all.
umm did you actually read my post before you responded? I already said Apache carriers firepower more in quantity. I know how much Apache can carry compared to Tiger, thats what I directed my post to.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@south
The 16x Hellfires would have been carried for the AT-role during a "hot" cold war.
However as always the missions dictates the loadout.
If you are hunting soft targets (like convoys) one could very well see most of the Apaches armed with FFARs and guns only with just some of them also carrying some hellfires for the occassional armored target.
And for sure a heavy loadout reduces range but the Apache has the luxury to be more versatile in this regard.
One can't compare the support role in A-stan with mainly lightly armed dismounts and fortified compounds as targets with the idea of blunting a red army armored spearhead in the Fulda Gap.

@Firn
I just want to add that enemy AA vehicles are the number one target for ground forces engaging enemy armored/mechanized formations.
They are just too dangerous for rotary and fixed wing CAS and so need to be addressed first.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
umm did you actually read my post before you responded? I already said Apache carriers firepower more in quantity. I know how much Apache can carry compared to Tiger, thats what I directed my post to.
Did you read mine? The Apache is capable of carrying Hellfire, rockets, and Stinger AAM's simultaneously, all in greater numbers than the Tiger.

Both have sufficient firepower for their respective roles, yes, but the Apache DOES have the greater firepower, which by definition is, "the ability to deliver fire onto a target".

You can call it semantics if you wish, but you split the hairs in the first place...
 

Firn

Active Member
After the most important points have been adressed I wonder which variant of the Eurocopter is especially suited for the conditions of a conflict like Afghanistan.

And I have a second question: Is there any indication that the newer EC is easier to maintain than the Apache under conditions similar to those in Afghanistan? I recon that this one is almost impossible to answer.
 

dragonfire

New Member
After reading the thread i feel that the tiger is a more versatile helo while the longbow is more effective as a h/k helo with comparitively better armour, firepower but lower range

Need Clarity on if Apache is also made out to have flexible roles like reccee roles or long range patrol missions etc

Both helos are supposed to be in the fray for the Indian Army's Attck Chopper acquisition program
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
After reading the thread i feel that the tiger is a more versatile helo while the longbow is more effective as a h/k helo with comparitively better armour, firepower but lower range

Need Clarity on if Apache is also made out to have flexible roles like reccee roles or long range patrol missions etc

Both helos are supposed to be in the fray for the Indian Army's Attck Chopper acquisition program
The Apache most definitely has the capacity to conduct recce missions and if necessary can carry external fuel on it's stub-wings to enhance range, allowing for the long range patrol mission.

Apache has the capability to conduct day and night time surveillance with FLIR and television day/night and optical sensors, whilst Longbow adds Millimetric Wave radar surveillance for air and ground targets.

AH-64D also possesses tactical data-link and solid state digital recorders to record the surveillance footage and images their sensors obtain and they can "hand off" this information via the Link 16 Tactical data-links, something the Australian Tigers are being upgraded to do as well. (Though Aussie Tigers currently incorporate Link 4A "proprietary data-links" they are being modified to the Link 16 standard to fit in with the wider ADF Link 16 architecture).

Unlike fast jets though, helos can land just about anywhere and refuel and rearm at FARP's (forward area refueling points) so the range issue is not a drama, provided your logistical support is established sufficiently to support these kinds of operations.

No matter which of these helicopters your Country chooses, you will have an excellent capability.

Cheers.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The Apache most definitely has the capacity to conduct recce missions and if necessary can carry external fuel on it's stub-wings to enhance range, allowing for the long range patrol mission.

Apache has the capability to conduct day and night time surveillance with FLIR and television day/night and optical sensors, whilst Longbow adds Millimetric Wave radar surveillance for air and ground targets.

AH-64D also possesses tactical data-link and solid state digital recorders to record the surveillance footage and images their sensors obtain and they can "hand off" this information via the Link 16 Tactical data-links, something the Australian Tigers are being upgraded to do as well. (Though Aussie Tigers currently incorporate Link 4A "proprietary data-links" they are being modified to the Link 16 standard to fit in with the wider ADF Link 16 architecture).

Unlike fast jets though, helos can land just about anywhere and refuel and rearm at FARP's (forward area refueling points) so the range issue is not a drama, provided your logistical support is established sufficiently to support these kinds of operations.

No matter which of these helicopters your Country chooses, you will have an excellent capability.

Cheers.
Having just read the book 'Apache' by Ed Macy, which looks in detail at attack helicopter operations in Afghanistan it makes you appreciate the value of such airframes. The book provides an excellent insight into the technical specifications and capabilities of the Apache and how they are applied in actual combat. Critically the following came out, which one must assume also apply in most respects to the Tiger.

The amount of time and effort put into the design allowing for maximum redundancy in the event certain critical systems fail or are damaged as a result of enemy action.

Careful application of materials - light weight materials in certain areas specifically designed to allow rounds to pass straight through minimising the size of entry and exit hole and subsequent impact upon the structural integrity of the airframe. Heavy armour in other areas where the 'soft and pink' bits sit and fly the beast.

Ability to fly the helo, whether in the front or back seat.

Unparalleled surveillance, tracking (Longbow) and killing capabilities - day or night.

High weapons load - 30mm round capacity, hydra, hellfire. The way they describe the interaction between fast air dropping bombs followed by 30mm Apache sweeps to kill insurgents escaping the scene of engagements is fascinating. With the thermal capability the term 'you can run but can't hide' brings a hole new dimension to the equation. Even though the Apache was designed for cold war tank killing it's ability to dominate the battlefield fighting light irregulars is still very impressive.

My only criticism is the need to develop cheaper munitions, firing a hellfire to destroy personnel in tunnel complexes sounds too expensive and is definitely overkill, companies should be developing smaller guided munitions with an HE / shrapnel capability - something cheap and cheerful with long shelf-lives. The issue of shelf life is a real factor, because every time an airframe deploys and returns without firing its missiles the strain brought about by the in-flight vibrations means that after a while the munition must be sent out of theatre to be checked and re-calibrated. The armourers on the ground try and encourage the pilots to fire the weapons, which are coming to the end of their operational shelf-life to cut the cost and embuggerance factor of having to send them back for servicing, something I didn't appreciate before I read the book.

The book is well worth a read, similar in detail to the Vietnam helo classic 'Chickenhawk'.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
At least the German UHT Tigers also have HOT3 integrated. (I had the luck to be one the firing range during live fire tests. Beautifull! :))
I assume the french tigers going to A-stan can do the same.
Using this ATGM for the current tasks should be much cheaper tha using a Hellfire, Spike or Trigat for the same target. Especially when one uses the existing stock.
And it's capabilities should be good enough for use in A-stan. It's not like one needs the ability to fire a dozen ATGMs against enemy tank columns simultaniously at the current operations.
 

Firn

Active Member
At least the German UHT Tigers also have HOT3 integrated. (I had the luck to be one the firing range during live fire tests. Beautifull! :))
I assume the french tigers going to A-stan can do the same.
Using this ATGM for the current tasks should be much cheaper tha using a Hellfire, Spike or Trigat for the same target. Especially when one uses the existing stock.
And it's capabilities should be good enough for use in A-stan. It's not like one needs the ability to fire a dozen ATGMs against enemy tank columns simultaniously at the current operations.
Isn't the Spike a rather affordable ATGM?

Anyway I'm a firm believer that artillery should be the main source of firepower. A Tiger or an Apache is however an excellent mean of support and a very important element of the whole system. I wonder how a light attack aircraft would perform under the current circumstances....
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I also think

The problem with artillery is that it is just not able to give you the same fire support like Helicopters can give to you.
Their ability to loiter in an Area and immediately attack targets they spotted with a variety of weapons is much more direct and responsible than artillery support. Helicopters are also able to give closer support and attack enemies with more precision than artillery.
While artillery has it's worth and is needed as the heavy hammer, even when used with intelligent ammunition.
A GMLRS may be highly accurate but it still is a 237mm rocket coming down.
 

dragonfire

New Member
The Apache most definitely has the capacity to conduct recce missions and if necessary can carry external fuel on it's stub-wings to enhance range, allowing for the long range patrol mission.

Apache has the capability to conduct day and night time surveillance with FLIR and television day/night and optical sensors, whilst Longbow adds Millimetric Wave radar surveillance for air and ground targets.

AH-64D also possesses tactical data-link and solid state digital recorders to record the surveillance footage and images their sensors obtain and they can "hand off" this information via the Link 16 Tactical data-links, something the Australian Tigers are being upgraded to do as well. (Though Aussie Tigers currently incorporate Link 4A "proprietary data-links" they are being modified to the Link 16 standard to fit in with the wider ADF Link 16 architecture).

Unlike fast jets though, helos can land just about anywhere and refuel and rearm at FARP's (forward area refueling points) so the range issue is not a drama, provided your logistical support is established sufficiently to support these kinds of operations.

No matter which of these helicopters your Country chooses, you will have an excellent capability.

Cheers.
Thanks AD for the inputs :)

Just hope that the order is expedited. It would be quite exciting to see something with the Indian Army which looks so lethal and modern as the Apache Longbow. That plus a helo for spec ops operators would giv an edge for the army aviation - any suggestions on this
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Thanks AD for the inputs :)

Just hope that the order is expedited. It would be quite exciting to see something with the Indian Army which looks so lethal and modern as the Apache Longbow. That plus a helo for spec ops operators would giv an edge for the army aviation - any suggestions on this
Depends what the requirements are.

If they are looking for a larger transport helo, MH-60 Blackhawk, NH-90, MH-47 Chinook and EC725 Cougar all have special operations features and variants which could fulfill the need well.

If a smaller COIN/CT insertion type helo is sought, the MH-6 "Little Bird" or the newer AH-6, still under development, might be suitable.

The "little birds" are used by the 160th "Special Operations Aviation Regiment" (Nightstalkers) and commonly fly "Delta" operators around.

Horses for courses really and unlike the USA, most Countries tend to have to make do with using their tactical transport helicopter fleet, sometimes modified with some "Special" operations features, as Australia has done with her CH-47D+ Chinooks.

Our Chinooks were "standard" D model Chinooks, that have been upgraded with some equipment from the "G" model Special Operations model CH-47 Chinook, for service in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Likewise, our soon to be ordered CH-47F Chinooks, will likely carry some or all of the same Special Operations, specific equipment

This tends to be the most common route taken, by those who can't afford such a mission specific fleet of aircraft.
 

Firn

Active Member
Thanks AD for the inputs :)

Just hope that the order is expedited. It would be quite exciting to see something with the Indian Army which looks so lethal and modern as the Apache Longbow. That plus a helo for spec ops operators would giv an edge for the army aviation - any suggestions on this
Ironically the helicopter arm of the Indian armed forces was effectively curtailed by MANPADs in the Kargil war after IIRC one or even two were downed. The artillery did allmost all the (heavy) lifting in it. That doesn't mean that such a modern combat helicopter is futile, far from it, but that it is a very precious assets with a huge potential which can be rather suscitable to SAM, especially under specific cirumstances as in the Kargil war.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Ironically the helicopter arm of the Indian armed forces was effectively curtailed by MANPADs in the Kargil war after IIRC one or even two were downed. The artillery did allmost all the (heavy) lifting in it. That doesn't mean that such a modern combat helicopter is futile, far from it, but that it is a very precious assets with a huge potential which can be rather suscitable to SAM, especially under specific cirumstances as in the Kargil war.
Don't cheapen out on important things like EW and self protection systems, in order to give the appearance of a large and powerful force.

I'm not denigrating the Indians, but they were facing mostly an IR guided MANPAD threat. That level of threat hasn't stopped Western helos in Afghanistan or Iraq or Bosnia etc, because they invest heavily in force protection measures designed specifically to address this threat.

If you don't, don't expect to be able to face a credible air threat.

Simple as that.
 

Firn

Active Member
Don't cheapen out on important things like EW and self protection systems, in order to give the appearance of a large and powerful force.

I'm not denigrating the Indians, but they were facing mostly an IR guided MANPAD threat. That level of threat hasn't stopped Western helos in Afghanistan or Iraq or Bosnia etc, because they invest heavily in force protection measures designed specifically to address this threat.

If you don't, don't expect to be able to face a credible air threat.

Simple as that.
A very valid point, even if one might add that the threat facing the Indian helicopters was markedly higher due to the specific circumstances - an headlong assault against fortified positions on peaks over 5000m manned by infantry with decent MANPADs.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
I noted in the online SPIEGEL addition that the German Military is spitting-fire over EADS reference a number of projects including the Tiger and NH90, quote as follows:

The German army ordered 80 "Tigers." The prototypes delighted crowds at air shows from 1991 onwards. But the German army hasn't received a single Tiger helicopter that is capable of reliably hitting targets with its rockets and cannon. The 10 "Tigers" it currently has are only suitable to provide basic instruction for pilots. More have been built but they haven't been accepted -- mechanics recently complained about chafed cables.

The NH90 transport helicopter is also regarded as a flop by the military. The plans to develop the aircraft go back to 1992. The Bundeswehr had ordered 80 of the helicopters for a total of €1.7 billion. However, the first sample aircraft only arrived at the end of 2006. Admittedly, the army is now in possession of eight of them. However, they are only 26 percent fit for service. That means that on average only two of the helicopters are ready to start at any given time.


One must assume this is largely press bluster, and reflects teething problems with the new platforms. I'd be interested to hear if the Aussie's are experiencing problems with their Tigers, nothing heard thus far in the public domain? Clearly the French aren't because they have deployed three to Afghanistan, which would not have happened unless they were fully combat certified.
 
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