M48A5T3 upgunned with 120mm CTG

[contedicavour]

I've read all of the posts above, and here are my conclusions :

> why does Turkey need 3000 MBTs ? That's more than Greece+Syria+Iran+Armenia put together. Besides, I would rather have less but only modern ones.

> there are at least 500 Leo2 A4 available, plus even more Leo1 that would respectively be better than M60/Leo1 and M48, whatever the upgrades that have been done on them so far. I guess upgrading may make sense especially to support local industry, but not really in terms of return on investment for Turkey's defence budget


cheers

 

[beleg]

There is no further plan to continiue with either Sabra modernisation nor the Volkan project as of yet.. Greece will have more than 500 LeoIIs after their deliveries are completed.. Thats quite a huge number which is also supported by LeoIs and M-60s.. Turkey definetly needs more than a thousand armor as long as Greece maintains such high quantities.

Syria , Armenia & Iran is a joke not an armored threat. :

 

[Waylander]

Some of the Greek tanks are definitely much more capable than everything Turkey has in its inventory (Leopard IIHE).

 

[contedicavour]

There is no further plan to continiue with either Sabra modernisation nor the Volkan project as of yet.. Greece will have more than 500 LeoIIs after their deliveries are completed.. Thats quite a huge number which is also supported by LeoIs and M-60s.. Turkey definetly needs more than a thousand armor as long as Greece maintains such high quantities.

Syria , Armenia & Iran is a joke not an armored threat. :

Ok then I guess Turkey's armored forces could be made up of 700-800 Leo2 (by buying 300-400 second hand) and 500 already modernized Leo1 or M60s. In this case though, no need to go up to 3000 as mentioned elsewhere in this thread ?

cheers

 

[beleg]

I dont think we will acquire more Leo2A4s if everything goes smoothly in Turkish MBT project. However if delays are seen there might be similar purchase and modernisation of them all to Leo2A6EX standards. I dont think we will keep several thousand MBTs but rather a smaller but stronger tank fleet consisting of perhaps several hundred Turkish MBT , 300 Leo2s , 300 modernised Leo1&M-60s total of 1500-2000 tanks at best...

 

[Soner1980]

Stimpy I don't know but the Leo-I and M60 is the same era when designed and built.

Leo-1 first entered service in the mid 1960's and the M60 in 1960. M60A1 in 1961-62. The M60A3 is from 1979 upgraded M60A1 and also built new till the M1 abrams was in full production.

The Leo-1 is faster, but less armored. It could only protect from 20mm guns and heavy MG's but not from any larger AP rounds like the 76mm or 85mm tank guns used in the PT-76 and the T-34 what Greece used against us in 1974. Also the Leo-1 is old I don't understand why Greece bought some 180? leo-1's but they have chosen for that. If the decision is mine, than I would like to give all of the 1369 M48A5T1 to Azebaycan, Kirgisistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and maybe Bosnia for only shiping cost. They need some weapons to bolster it's armed forces.

The remaining Leo-1 and M48A5T2 should be used till the new Turkish state of the art tank will be in service in acceptable numbers. I think I will use the Leo-1 and M48A5T2 in inner land security, the Leo-2 in thrace and a small number against Armenia, the Sabra in thrace and against Armenia and south eastern Anatolia till Turkey is able to replace it with a state of the art MBT designed and manufactured in Turkey.

The Gepard and Roland is not a new toy anymore for the army and will also be obsolete. Upgrading the Zipkin and Atilgan with more advanced weapons should become a better solution. The Stingers must be replaced by a longer ranged missile, like the Rapier with it's 12 km range. Then, also a bigger vehicle is needed: The ACV-S (Akinci) will be useful.

What Netherlands has sold to Austria, I don't know exactly, but the rest is sold to other countries I don't know. Most of them are upgraded to the A5 version and 1 of them is placed in Amersfoort Cavalry Museum. I saw it there

About the Chopper contest, ATAK project, I get sleepy you know?

 

[contedicavour]

Stimpy I don't know but the Leo-I and M60 is the same era when designed and built.

Leo-1 first entered service in the mid 1960's and the M60 in 1960. M60A1 in 1961-62. The M60A3 is from 1979 upgraded M60A1 and also built new till the M1 abrams was in full production.

The Leo-1 is faster, but less armored. It could only protect from 20mm guns and heavy MG's but not from any larger AP rounds like the 76mm or 85mm tank guns used in the PT-76 and the T-34 what Greece used against us in 1974. Also the Leo-1 is old I don't understand why Greece bought some 180? leo-1's but they have chosen for that. If the decision is mine, than I would like to give all of the 1369 M48A5T1 to Azebaycan, Kirgisistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and maybe Bosnia for only shiping cost. They need some weapons to bolster it's armed forces.

The remaining Leo-1 and M48A5T2 should be used till the new Turkish state of the art tank will be in service in acceptable numbers. I think I will use the Leo-1 and M48A5T2 in inner land security, the Leo-2 in thrace and a small number against Armenia, the Sabra in thrace and against Armenia and south eastern Anatolia till Turkey is able to replace it with a state of the art MBT designed and manufactured in Turkey.

The Gepard and Roland is not a new toy anymore for the army and will also be obsolete. Upgrading the Zipkin and Atilgan with more advanced weapons should become a better solution. The Stingers must be replaced by a longer ranged missile, like the Rapier with it's 12 km range. Then, also a bigger vehicle is needed: The ACV-S (Akinci) will be useful.

What Netherlands has sold to Austria, I don't know exactly, but the rest is sold to other countries I don't know. Most of them are upgraded to the A5 version and 1 of them is placed in Amersfoort Cavalry Museum. I saw it there

About the Chopper contest, ATAK project, I get sleepy you know?

What about tank units patrolling the frontiers with Syria (it does not lack hundreds of T72s) and Iran (Zulfiqars, T72s, etc) ? Honestly I hope those frontiers worry you at least as much as those with a fellow NATO country
I'd feel more confortable if Iran were staring at some Turkish Leo2 ... it may calm them down !

cheers

 

[swerve]

The Leo-1 is faster, but less armored. It could only protect from 20mm guns and heavy MG's but not from any larger AP rounds like the 76mm or 85mm tank guns used in the PT-76 and the T-34 what Greece used against us in 1974. Also the Leo-1 is old I don't understand why Greece bought some 180? leo-1's but they have chosen for that. If the decision is mine, than I would like to give all of the 1369 M48A5T1 to Azebaycan, Kirgisistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and maybe Bosnia for only shiping cost. They need some weapons to bolster it's armed forces.

The remaining Leo-1 and M48A5T2 should be used till the new Turkish state of the art tank will be in service in acceptable numbers. I think I will use the Leo-1 and M48A5T2 in inner land security, the Leo-2 in thrace and a small number against Armenia, the Sabra in thrace and against Armenia and south eastern Anatolia till Turkey is able to replace it with a state of the art MBT designed and manufactured in Turkey.
...

What Netherlands has sold to Austria, I don't know exactly, but the rest is sold to other countries I don't know. Most of them are upgraded to the A5 version and 1 of them is placed in Amersfoort Cavalry Museum. I saw it there

20mm protection was the minimum level specified before the tank was built. It actually had a bit more. Leo 1 was in production until the Leo 2 entered production, at the same time as the M1. Late model Leopard 1 had much more protection, & from 1974 many earlier models were upgraded with extra armour. Unless Turkey still has early Leopards, without upgrades, they should now be much better protected.

The full list of all Leopard 2 sales & re-sales is on this forum, here -
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5038&page=2

 

[Soner1980]

Turkey has two types leo-1 in its inventory.

Totalling 375 of them and 165 of them are Leopard-1A1A1's wich has to be upgraded with the Volkan package. Maybe 3 of them will not be upgraded, don't know why. To give them to the War Museum in Istanbul???

Other version is the Leopard-1A3T1, wich has been upgraded in the late 1990's by ASELSAN. It is about the same upgrade to the M48A5T2 with a different thermal imager. I know a Imam (mosque) and he was a tank commander in a M48A5T1. The T1 version has also modern equipment on it, like the commanders joystick to command the entire turret and the CITV in most tanks today. The latter does not include on the T1 and it is only used to command the Turret and fire the main gun from the commanders position.

The Volkan is also meets the 3rd generation MBT needs and thus is more modern than the T1 version or even the T2.

Syria doesnt have a trained army. Rather than that, of their 25.000 MBT's there are a couple of hundreds still working and about 350 T-72's, this is not a threat that Turkey should use modern equipment. The M48A5T1's are enough because of the training and air superiority. Iran is a different neighbor and has a good trained army, better motivation and more equipment.

 

[beleg]

What about tank units patrolling the frontiers with Syria (it does not lack hundreds of T72s) and Iran (Zulfiqars, T72s, etc) ? Honestly I hope those frontiers worry you at least as much as those with a fellow NATO country
I'd feel more confortable if Iran were staring at some Turkish Leo2 ... it may calm them down !

cheers

I was lucky to serve in a mech infantry brigade on Syrian border 2 years ago. In 99 the brigade i served , along with other brigades on Syrian border made a joint manevour AT the border which scared the hell out of Syrian military. The events resulted in banishment of Ocalan from Syria, from where he then went to fellow(!) NATO countries like Italy and Greece :tomato.. Our eastern borders will not see clashes unless Iran gets very close to acquiring A-Bomb.. As i said there is no armored threat in south or east.

 

[Soner1980]

Like the German army fought the Russians, Turkey has also multiple independent army HQ wich could be operational like the Germans in the WWII: The Armee Gruppe Nord, Mitte and Süd. And we have 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Aegean army group HQ in Turkey.

Beleg it can be true that Turkey does not have any armored threat from Iran. Besides now Iran wants more friendship with us despite the nuclear disputes with western countries. Also Turkey want to defend itself by spending $1bln to buy long range ABM systems like the S300/400 and PAC-3.

But this does not mean that the 2nd army does not need tanks. (2nd army is in the border with Syria, Iraq and Iran).

Ofcouse TAF will deploy more modern AFV's to the 1st and Aegean army HQ command. Because of the rivalry with Greece. Turkey has spend billions to develop the army to the one of the most best equipped and best trained army of the world.

 

[swerve]

Syria doesnt have a trained army. Rather than that, of their 25.000 MBT's there are a couple of hundreds still working and about 350 T-72's,

Soner, I don't know why you think Syria has 25000 MBTs. The IISS estimated in 2003 that Syria had 4500 tanks, of which 1200 old ones were dug in to static positions as fixed strongpoints. I've never seen a higher estimate.

 

[contedicavour]

Soner, I don't know why you think Syria has 25000 MBTs. The IISS estimated in 2003 that Syria had 4500 tanks, of which 1200 old ones were dug in to static positions as fixed strongpoints. I've never seen a higher estimate.

2004 globaldefence update states that Syria has 3500 MBTs, 1500 of whch are T-72s. These are still serious tanks with 125-mm guns. They can still wreck M48s, M60s and Leo1s, though not Leo2s. I'm not even mentioning other dangerous assets such as self propelled 2S1 & 2S3 Russian heavy artillery.
That's why I really hope the Turkish 2nd Army isn't using all of its Leo2 to face Greece...

cheers

 

[Waylander]

I would also not like to sit in a M48, Leo1 or M60 facing 125mm guns. The question is, is the Sabra upgrade neough to withstand 125mm penetrators.

 

[swerve]

2004 globaldefence update states that Syria has 3500 MBTs, 1500 of whch are T-72s.

That's consistent, assuming they're not counting the T-55s the IISS listed in fixed positions or stored. The number of T-72s is the same. 1000 T-62. The remainder are T-55, some uparmoured.

 

[contedicavour]

That's consistent, assuming they're not counting the T-55s the IISS listed in fixed positions or stored. The number of T-72s is the same. 1000 T-62. The remainder are T-55, some uparmoured.

That's a huge arsenal, even if most of it must be needed south to face Syria's eternal foe, Israel.

 

[beleg]

Its not the T-72 that wins the battle.. Its the soldiers.. Had you seen the actions of Syrian soldiers in 99 when Turkish brigades did wargames ON the border and inside Syrian territory you'd not fear their tanks nor their soldiers. Even when i served last year, we did these similar wargames just a few hundred METERS from Syran borders with no one to be seen around on their side. Had this happened with Greece we'd see a strong reaction. For today there is no armored threat from east.

 

[contedicavour]

Its not the T-72 that wins the battle.. Its the soldiers.. Had you seen the actions of Syrian soldiers in 99 when Turkish brigades did wargames ON the border and inside Syrian territory you'd not fear their tanks nor their soldiers. Even when i served last year, we did these similar wargames just a few hundred METERS from Syran borders with no one to be seen around on their side. Had this happened with Greece we'd see a strong reaction. For today there is no armored threat from east.

Determined soldiers with good leadership make all the difference, yes.
I've seen in the Balkans what determined soldiers on T-72 (or the local copy M-84) could do... those 125mm guns are impressive, especially if the tank is in a defensive posture with some cover from trees, hills, etc (admittedly the terrain in the northern bit of Syria is desertic flat, ok).