M48A5T3 upgunned with 120mm CTG

[Soner1980]

Why the Turkish army does not want to phase the M48's out of service? Some people just talk about something but it can be true because it is not only a speculation. I normally do not write this kind of toppics but maybe it comes true?

Yes, The M48A5, a very old and obsolescent MBT in a modern army today. Also known as a self propelled 105mm gun or Tank Destroyer in WWII terms.

But when installing the 120mm compact tank gun from the Sabra, this version can be very dangerous in the field. Put some reactive armor on it and just go. Ofcourse it is not a first liner but it can support advancing MBT's from behind or finish other MBT's when still intact but disabled, sitting ducks, etc.. Also a very cheap solution to set a tank killer capability in the field.

The M48A5T3 should not be used as an MBT but as a self propelled gun system like the WWII variant the Wolverine. Medium armor, less fuel consumption and a deadly gun mounted should make it re-useable as a heavy tank destroyer. Like the Iranian Zolfaqar, the tank built with entire parts of the M48 and M60, should become a new vehicle in the battle field.

If Turkey does not decide like this, than the turrets would be used in fortifications, beach heads, etc. and the hull to built a bridgelayer or recovery vehicle. I think also like a AA-tank with 2x35mm guns and the SLS (Stinger launch system) from ASELSAN. But you never now... There is also an option to use them as a field tractor to carry heavy howitsers or logistics and if Turkey uses their brains, then the hull of the M48 could be converted to a heavy APC like the Israeli or Russian counterparts. The Russians use their T-55's hull for a heavy APC with can carry 6 infantry and armed with heavy machine guns only. Used in Chechenia.

 

[Stimpy75]

Why the Turkish army does not want to phase the M48's out of service? Some people just talk about something but it can be true because it is not only a speculation. I normally do not write this kind of toppics but maybe it comes true?

Yes, The M48A5, a very old and obsolescent MBT in a modern army today. Also known as a self propelled 105mm gun or Tank Destroyer in WWII terms.

But when installing the 120mm compact tank gun from the Sabra, this version can be very dangerous in the field. Put some reactive armor on it and just go. Ofcourse it is not a first liner but it can support advancing MBT's from behind or finish other MBT's when still intact but disabled, sitting ducks, etc.. Also a very cheap solution to set a tank killer capability in the field.

The M48A5T3 should not be used as an MBT but as a self propelled gun system like the WWII variant the Wolverine. Medium armor, less fuel consumption and a deadly gun mounted should make it re-useable as a heavy tank destroyer. Like the Iranian Zolfaqar, the tank built with entire parts of the M48 and M60, should become a new vehicle in the battle field.

If Turkey does not decide like this, than the turrets would be used in fortifications, beach heads, etc. and the hull to built a bridgelayer or recovery vehicle. I think also like a AA-tank with 2x35mm guns and the SLS (Stinger launch system) from ASELSAN. But you never now... There is also an option to use them as a field tractor to carry heavy howitsers or logistics and if Turkey uses their brains, then the hull of the M48 could be converted to a heavy APC like the Israeli or Russian counterparts. The Russians use their T-55's hull for a heavy APC with can carry 6 infantry and armed with heavy machine guns only. Used in Chechenia.

Well,to upgun the m48,i think it´s a waste of money,it would be better to upgun the leo I and equip them with the additional armor,like the leo IC2,but to convert them is a far better option,already takin shape in form of ARV and AEV and most likely into APC`s is the best option,i hope this will mataerilize in the near future, like the BTR-T.Well for the AA-tank,Turkey should obtain some of the german Gepard tanks,which are currently phaced out by the germans.This is a cheaper solution.I hope we will see all of this to happen in the near future!

 

[Soner1980]

No the Gepard (or Cheetah in Dutch army) is also old. I think that the M48 converting to a AA tank is better for Turkey because of the local industry involved can built indigenous designs and also able to sold them to abroad.

And also upgunning the M48A5 with the same barrel could not cost as much as the Sabra because only the barrel will be installed and maybe some optics or computerized systems to update with the 120mm gun characteristics.

The BTR-T, or the convertion of the M48A5 to a M48APC is a very useful design. Scrapping it from service is not a loss in investment, using it with a new configuration is investing in a new system like the BTR-T, ARV, bridgelayer or something. Also a Sabra upgrade should be possible I think but it would not the same as the M60 converted to a Sabra I think.

 

[Stimpy75]

Hmm,but the problem with the m48 is,that the tank is very high,not fast or very manoverable, in terms of a MBT.New addon armor have to be obtained for the m48,to ensure a better survivability+a stronger engine,and for all that,these have to be bought,because,we don´t have the ability yet to produce these items!including the gun!Not yet

Maybe the Gepard is old,but still very capable, but i guess we could optain them very cheap,perhaps free i hope,and you could modernize them by turkish firms like aselsan to improve the fire control systems and add stinger missiles to them!
Most important it would not last long till we get them.And as you know,the Anti Air system of the turkish army is not very good,just some zipkin and atilgan,that´s not much,we have to improve in these fields.....perhaps some german Roland systems for example would improve these drawbacks!!!

i´m off topic a little bit.

what do you think of getting some of the rheinmetall L44/120 which are replaced by the L55/120, and install them in our tank fleet....LEO I,M60...and M48 if you desire
i mean until we can built 120 mm guns by ourselves.
mesala yani

 

[Soner1980]

If you install a Rheinmetall 120mm tank gun? Than the tank is not able to move after a few shots. Every shot will crack the armor plate. Like Dutch AMX-13's armed with the L7/M68 105mm gun (same as that one in the Leo-1 and M48/M60) when firing the 105mm gun, the crack was getting bigger and after 100 shots the AMX-13 will be sliced like bread.

But the Israeli 120mm Compact Tank Gun has a lower pressure (kickback) and the M60 can sustain its kickback when fired. The M48 would also survive after some shots without any cracks to the body.

I will say: put the 120mm CTG in the M48 without any modifications further on it, so you have a 120mm gun system or a Tank Destroyer. The Israeli 120mm CTG does not need to modify the turret with weldings and cutting, it is a very simple solution. The Rheinmetal is also bigger and does not fit the turret and needs a lot of cutting and welding work to fit.

The Gepard? No, political not a good solution. The M48 is good enough for playing in a AA role with its new turret with 2x35mm Oerlikon gun system and Stinger SAM on it. The Cheetah has a reason why it is phased out of the Dutch army 4 months ago and the Gepard is the same reason. But when it's free, everything will change ofcouse.

The Turkish aerospace is badly defended? No way! We have bought 24 launchers of the MIM-23K I-HAWK and 6 batteries equipped with Rapier Mk.2 and some batteries with Nike Hercules with a range of 160km. These were upgraded with a new guidance system, so no plane can get through anymore in the Aegean coastline!

Also you can built the M48 like the BMPT. A hull of the T-72 tank with 2 x 30mm guns from the BMP-2 and with a MG and AT-5 ATGM on it witch can also carry infantry.

 

[contedicavour]

I don't understand the logic behind updating M48 (or M60 or Leo1 for that matter) when there are litterally a thousand or so Leo2A4 that are being put either in reserve or directly on the international arms market by Germany and the Netherlands...
Since most countries have what they need, it is very likely prices for used Leo2A4 will go on falling and that fellow NATO countries such as Turkey can have more than their current 300 at very low prices...

cheers

 

[Soner1980]

Hey Italian, first this: Congratulations with the World Cup...

Yes ofcouse it is a very good way to get German surplus Leo-2's but there are now 300 left in German stockpiles. Holland has sold their Leo-2A4's to Switserland and now the Turkeish firms are to about to design and produce a state-of-the art MBT with the involvement of Turkish firms. But till 2012-2015, Turkey needs a fleet to close the gap. The 298 Leo-2A4 is still not enough for a big country like TR. And also the 170 sabra's are not enough. After the 950 M60's converted to the Sabra Turkey has 1248 tanks with todays standards, some M48's will go the same upgrade I'm afraid because Turkey needs about 3000 MBT's at least in service of the Greek threat and the terrorists in south eastern Turkey. But why spending so much for a old shit? Just put the 120mm gun on it without other upgrades and use it for 7 years. Leo-1 is still formidable, only weak armor on it should be up-armored with armor plates and maybe extra ERA on it too. The Leo-1 is being upgraded with the Volkan package by ASELSAN and than it gets the same value of a 3rd generation tank standards.

After using it for more than 40 years, the M48 has been a typical Turkish tank in service. Also the T2 version can match the Leo-1A5 in terms of technology, but not stand against a T-80, Leo-2 or M1.

If Turkey upgrades their M48's to the Sabra with a 120mm gun, passive armor plating, new FCS, better engine, etc. than Turkey has about 4000 Sabra MBT's 300 Leopard-2A4's, 170 Leopard-1 Volkan and 180 Leopard-1A3T1 totalling at about 4600 MBT's with modern technology till the locally built Turkish MBT will roll of the production line after 2012. Then 1000 of them will be produced and Turkey has to phase the old M48 Sabra's out of service to sell them to countries like Azerbaycan or something.

 

[swerve]

Hey Italian, first this: Congratulations with the World Cup...

Yes ofcouse it is a very good way to get German surplus Leo-2's but there are now 300 left in German stockpiles. Holland has sold their Leo-2A4's to Switserland

The Netherlands hasn't sold any tanks to Switzerland. On the contrary, Switzerland has about 100 Leo 2 for sale. Netherlands still has some for sale, Sweden has 160 Leo 2A4 surplus to requirements, & Germany still has some to sell. Overall, at least 500 available.

 

[Stimpy75]

Those SAM you mentioned are part of the turkish air force,not army.
The problem with those systems are, that they are not moveable.
The turkish army needs sam which can move with the tanks and apc´s,that is what the turkish army lacks.If you go into action and you don´t have air cover,then it will be dangerous for the troops, for example against the greece Apache´s,they obtained SA-8 from germany,so why don´t we optain some Roland systems, i think there would be no political problem,because as long as i know there are no flying PKK´s to use agains
But it will strongly improve the air defence capability of the TURKISH ARMY

P.S. The italian army has a lot of LEO I and they want to replace them with their Ariete MK2 i think,so there is a chance to get some of them,cheap i hope,and then modernize them:volkan fcs,120 mm ctg,addon armour and of course a new engine,perhaps our italian friends could help us with that,especially the engine part!

The Leo II,yes you´re right,there aren´t much left to give away,but i still hope we can get more then the 298 on order!

 

[Stimpy75]

500 available,wow,what are we waiting for?let´s get them.......
if we´re allowed,that is the problem.....
although we are a nato member,we always have problems to get what we want....because with the problem of the pkk....
oh man,do they really think that they will be used against them....B.S.!!!
those tanks are used against other tanks,and that´s all

let´s wait and see!!!

 

[Waylander]

BTW, some of our outphased Gepards are modernized.

 

[Soner1980]

The Netherlands hasn't sold any tanks to Switzerland. On the contrary, Switzerland has about 100 Leo 2 for sale. Netherlands still has some for sale, Sweden has 160 Leo 2A4 surplus to requirements, & Germany still has some to sell. Overall, at least 500 available.

Sorry, I mean Austria. Here is an article from NRC Handelsblad, a daily newspaper from Holland. Just read the red colored text, am I right or am I right?

Verkocht Ondanks de lauwe interesse voor dit militaire overschot is de Nederlandse overheid er de afgelopen jaren toch in geslaagd een aantal partijen te slijten. Dit is mede gelukt dankzij een wervende brochure die op alle diplomatieke posten in het buitenland klaarligt. Zo kocht Bahrein voor twintig miljoen gulden tientallen rupsvoertuigen en de Verenigde Arabische Emiraten verwierven twee fregatten à driehonderd miljoen gulden. Oostenrijk nam voor 445 miljoen gulden 114 geavanceerde Leopard 2 tanks af. Egypte schafte voor een bedrag van 600 miljoen bijna 600 moderne infanteriegevechtsvoertuigen aan.

And no my dear, Turkey would not buy any cheap systems anymore. Why buying old leo-1's from Italy? Or the OF-40, a license built leo-1 with Italian minor upgrades on it. Why buying old systems? Than Turkey needs later to replace the old Leo-1's with newer tanks again?

298 Leo-2A4 is just for short period till Turkish MBT will be produced after 2012. The Sabra was also to upgrade older M60's to a avarage quality based MBT and the M48's? Yes, upgrading to the Sabra is not worth of it, but I like to hear about of it when Turkey comes with M48APC, like the BTR-T, or even BMP-T. AA- vehicle or something. The Gepard could be a good thing but also being obsolete withing few years. Look to the Tunguska, the S-15 with 2x30mm guns on it.

The modernized Nike hercules is from the air force, ok you are right, but this is the only long range SAM Turkey has in inventory. The Gepard is only like the ZSU-23 Shilka or the M163 PIVADS what is obsolete by todays standards because for example Apache helicopters has now Hellfire missiles with a range of 8 km and making the 35mm guns (23mm for Shilka) useless against the Apache. Also the Stinger is now short ranged, why buying such system? If it was able to mount SAM on the Gepard then the German army did not phase them out of service. Turkish ASELSAN has sold the Stinger launch platforms to the Dutch army. This is a state of the art stinger platform. A very effective system that is able to engage multiple targets and automated firing. Also lock on target and tracking of the target is automated. The missile can also be fired automated by the computer system when in range. Some 18 systems will be delivered in 2007-2008 mountable to their FENNEK. Turkey has also a license to built the FENNEK locally by FNSS Savunma Sistemleri AS. The Atilgan and Zipkin is a formidable short range SAM system mounted on every vehicle. Turkey has chosen the surplus M113 and the Land Rover vehicle to produce about 150 pieces of them both totally.

 

[beleg]

Dear Soner
M-48s and M-60s are in so bad shape that some of them dont even walk.. Their battle readiness is on floor.. Sabra project changes even the engine of M-60s because of this.. you cant just upgun M-48.. They are too old for any investment.. In their current state they are worthless for being APCs as well since their armor provides little protection against anything the size of a RPG..

No country needs 2000-3000-4000 mbts anymore.. Not even Turkey.. Besides 4000 Sabras means more than 16bio$ do you think we should spend that money for crap like M-48 or for a new gen MBT? ...

Dear Waylander;
Turkey does not need and will not get any Gepards, Aselsan will develop an AA-Gun system to replace the obsolete M-42s.The chasis selection is unknown however none of the old tanks (M-48,M-60 or Leo1) can do the job efficiently enough (alongside Leo2A4 and future Turkish MBT & the ACV-300 IFVs) without replacing their engine & transmissions..


Dear contedicavour,
As i said in an other post, The current amount of 298 Leo2A4s is enough for Turkey as gap filler until the new generation MBT enters service. Turkey faces armored threat only from Greece and partially from Cyprus. The threat on east and south is a joke even with the current armor inventory of TSK. So 300 Leo2A4s supported by 170 M-60SabraIII and 150+ LeoI Volkan should be enough..

Congrats on your champship.. Glad you beat the French..:rolling

 

[swerve]

Sorry, I mean Austria. Here is an article from NRC Handelsblad, a daily newspaper from Holland. Just read the red colored text, am I right or am I right?

Right, but that was 114 of the 445 Leopard 2 the Netherlands had. They've sold others since, but still have 240, & intend to cut the number further. Leopard 2 sales numbers are all on the "Portugal buys Leopard 2" thread.

 

[Stimpy75]

yes you are perhaps right what the Gepard metters,but in all i have heard nothing about the Roland system,which are phased out by the germans.
these systems have the ability to defend off the apache for example,and they give cover for the army unit,so why not purchase them....and they are cheap,that´s what metters,because for newer system there is no money.
the atilgan and zipkin are good systems but they lack range.

A m48 apc is a good idea,something like achzarit,new engine,new transmission,and especially new armour and an overhead turret....

I only hope that we will choose the rooivalk,because of the offset arangement,like new missiles(ingwe,mokopa) and other systems,which could be license produced.Off topic i know!

The Leo I is a good tank,better then the M60&M48,and not so old.
Something like the canadian Leo I C2.That would be ideal.

 

[Waylander]

We do not phase out all of our Gepards. We just reduce numbers.
How often do do you think Apaches have a 4km line of sight against their targets in a european terrain? If they show up too high they get caught by long range SAMs and Stinger/Strela/etc.
So they have to use the terrain for cover like ground vehicles do and use surprise as a tactic.
And the Gepard is especially against those targets showing up by surprise near your mechanized formation (Not to talk of its self defence abilities against everything smaller than a MBT).
Within 3km it is very deadly against everything flying around.

But back to topic.
I would save the money and put it into my tank development project. More than 1200 Leo IIA4 and Sabras should be enough against everything till the new tank arrives.
And against rebels the main gun of the M48 is enough.

 

[beleg]

Dear Stimpy75,
have u ever joined an exercise with M-60s? I did and i know these tanks are worthless .. Ok they are enough to deal with some terrorist or non existent armored threat like Iran or Syria but when the officers prefer to use IFVs over M-60s that should give u a hint over the battle reaidness of M-48s..Israel and Turkey doesnt have same needs so similar solutions wont always proove to be correct. What we need is not an extra armored tank-apc but a fast, extra mobile mechanised vehicle to replace the aging M-113s.. However that can wait till we get a new tank..

About roland, again i think there is no need to acquire these outdated sytems, you complain about the lack of range of Aselsans KMS, but KMS is an open architecture system which means any missile can be integrated in to the system with little cost...

Waylander Gepard style systems are also great to use against terrorists in the mountains.. However if we got them from you and used them in internal security ops, half of the Greens would want to hang Mrs Merkel

 

[Stimpy75]

About roland, again i think there is no need to acquire these outdated sytems, you complain about the lack of range of Aselsans KMS, but KMS is an open architecture system which means any missile can be integrated in to the system with little cost...

Dear beleg,maybe the roland system is outdated,but still it´s a capable system....the KMS can be integrated with different missiles,but they are all SHORT range missiles,so there is no real improvement in terms of range,and that is what the turlkish army lacks.

for example the greece have SA-8 and SA-15 systems,far more capable then the KMS in terms of range,although the former is outdated,but still capable...

so what speaks against the Roland system,all our "lovely" neighbours have those kind of air defence systems.....range

Such a system will definitely improve the safety of the ground forces

 

[swerve]

From their age, & the use they've had, I'd expect the M48s to be pretty well worn out. It would be a waste of money to put new guns into them. The Israeli conversions of old tanks into HAPCs have all been intended for very short-range, urban use only, & done as cheaply as possible, because the Israelis know the old tank running gear doesn't have much life left. Does Turkey want or need vehicles suited to urban fighting, but which need transporting to the edge of the city? Which are unsuitable for mobile warfare, or mountainous terrain?

The M48 hulls could be used as the basis of new vehicles, with new engines, transmissions, etc - but would that be cheaper than buying completely new?

No, I think they're best left where they are for now, in storage for emergencies, when the fact that they'll break down before long may not matter, because they only have to work for a short time.

 

[beleg]

swerve +1..

Thats the intend of TSK.. Infact some older M48s have been withdrawn to reserve status and some M48-s are being modified as engineering tanks.

dear stimpy,
KMS is a brigade level unit, its one of the best of its kind and selected by TSK and Netherlands at the moment. a brigade does not need more than what KMS offers. Air defence requires a multi layered network and missile shield.. currently Turkey has all the sub-structure, radar and network systems and the phase will complete by introdutcion of Boeing MESA, as you know TSK currently has 2 different SAM tenders,

1 - medium-high altitude (for airforce)
2 - and vertically launched short-medium (for armored forces at Army and Army corps level)

The second one is the layer above KMS (Atilgan & Zipkin) .. While there is investment in new generation SAMs its irrelevant to acquire roland..
finally to complete them all a high altitude sam like patriot will complete the air defence network countrywide..