Lets widen our Tactical/Strategic Knowhow
- Thread starter zulqarnain
- Start date
I guess it was predicated on a "let's run with what ya brung" basis.Gremlin29 said:
yes hostage rescue is not the type of mission SF is tasked with, but they do poccess the capability to carry out this type of mission. and since a few team of SF is stationed in Columbia, they seem to be the logical choice as they can react to the situation faster than Delta.Gremlin29 said:
HI , pathfinder you talk too much and raise many doubt but then behave like a numb, why, sorry dont mind but this wat was evident from ur reply of the first situation painted by zulqarnain, he came up with the question as to wat all are those conditions which necessaitate and requires coordinations for the tranfornation of an effort , to another effort i mean secondry to main or auxillary to main , this type of question does not require any particular theatre or scenirio, but u asked, and once it was provided u started of with the developemen of operation , as to how to conter it , which Zulgarnain never asked ,
U seeems to have a fair knowledge about the militry , so can u plz tell us those condition which necessate the changing of efforts , those coordination which are required i mean in relation to time , space adn resources . plz dont mind my aim is to get something from u all , as u all are learned people , and i am a novice , By the way the way u have tackled that situation that shows ur agressiveness, keep it up , but mind u the war is not so easy thing had it been then USA must have been over with her task in iraq and afghanistan i think , but still they are there , which realy tell that war is war, and not a game , it realy ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ok leave it i think i am deverting from the topic so plz put us wise over it , i f u can , thanks
:!: :roll
U seeems to have a fair knowledge about the militry , so can u plz tell us those condition which necessate the changing of efforts , those coordination which are required i mean in relation to time , space adn resources . plz dont mind my aim is to get something from u all , as u all are learned people , and i am a novice , By the way the way u have tackled that situation that shows ur agressiveness, keep it up , but mind u the war is not so easy thing had it been then USA must have been over with her task in iraq and afghanistan i think , but still they are there , which realy tell that war is war, and not a game , it realy ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ok leave it i think i am deverting from the topic so plz put us wise over it , i f u can , thanks
:!: :roll
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Well, what are the objectives, to kill the terrorists or capture them? Obviously the hostages are the main priority, whilst simultaneously neutralising the terrorists. If the objective is to simply to rescue the hostages and kill the terrorists this is (probably) how I would approach it (Pathfinder's scenario) after a whole 10 minutes of thought...
1. Gather as much intell about the terrorists from afar as possible, including continuing the already (apparently) open communications with the terrorists to try and negotiate a peaceful resolution and if unsuccessful at that, use the negotiations to gather as much useful intell information as possible whilst distracting the terrorists from protecting themselves.
2. Use half (6) of the Green Beret team to conduct a close reconnaissance (or close target recconaissance as the Brits call it) on the camp, and provide on site intell, including exact co-ordinates of the fortified positions, (0.50 cal machine guns etc) numbers of terrorists, weapons, equipment, demeanor, routine, camp layout etc, location of hostages and guards, the physical description of where the hostages are being held, ie: in the open, a building of some sort, a pit or cave, whether they are all together, held in separate locations, what they're condition is like (if they are starved and beaten they are unlikey to be able to walk far), etc, etc. Also use recce team to assess likely form up points (FUP's), fire support positions, escape routes, etc for assault teams.
3. The "reserve" special forces unit would be immediately brought into play. (This should give a force of approx 24 GB's and 62 Colombian soldiers). With all due respect to the Colombians, from what I've read of previous missions, they aren't exactly of the highest standard in the world. An IA (immediate action) plan would also be formed, ie: what do we do if hostages start getting capped? As well as a deliberate attack plan.
4. I would form the GB and Colombian soldiers into teams, (or squads if you like) with each squad led by GB soldiers. These teams would then commence training and practising with their pers weapons and equipment on likely assaults and depending on their skills and capabilities and the available intell, would be assigned preliminary roles.
5. After updated intell received and the political approval was given for the mission to go ahead this is what I'd plan. (Bearing in mind this is all theoretical)... After sufficient rehearsals (depending on the amount of time to rehearse) each team would be deployed by helo a long distance away, (maybe 10-15klms, depending on terrrain). Each team would then infil by foot to a pre-arranged and agreed upon lie up point, (LUP) depending on continually updated intell from the RT, the evening prior to the attack. The helo's (and reserve force) would be held in standby only a short flight away and would be (hopefully) of sufficient number to transport all troops, hostages and any captured terrorists. In addition a reserve force (if available, would be mounted on the helo's to help secure the area against rebel attack until the helo's can transport everyone out safely)
6. If a deliberate attack could be conducted I would assign a fire support team (FST) to attack each 0.50cal bunker using anti-armour weapons (AT-4's and LAW's, both have excellent anti-bunker characteristics in addition to anti-armour characteristics) and available machine guns/SAW's. I wouldn't bother with the Mortars at all. You want to rescue hostages not simply kill everyone there, Mortars aren't all THAT accurate and tend to be fairly indiscriminate not to mention lethal...
7. If proper equipment and skillsets were available I would also employ the recce team (RT) as snipers, with specific primary tasking of ensuring survival of hostages until an assault team (AT) can secure the hostages. Snipers would also have the secondary tasking of killing other terrorists and preventing any MANPAD launches should any terrorists escape the "net", when the helo's arrive. Each (FST) is to be primarily tasked with neutralising the bunkers and heavy weapons. Each FST also has secondary taskings of providing direct fire support for the AT's and acting as cut-off groups to ensure (as best as possible) no terrorists are able to escape.
8. My AT's would probably comprise 4 person teams, with a GB leading each team. 40 terrorists would, depending on how they are housed, probably require at least 8 AT's, plus Snipers/RT's, FST's and a reserve/evacuation force. The RTwould comprise 3x 2 man teams, depending on the size and layout of the target area. The FST's would comprise 6x4 man teams, and the reserve force would comprise 4x6 man teams, (due to limited GB's to lead each team and a probable shortage of helo's.
9. After infil, each assault/fire support team leader would conduct a briefing with the RT, at the LUP to obtain a clear picture of the target area and the latest intell. Each team would then be individually briefed by their respective team leader and if the go ahead for the attack was given, each team would move to a designated FUP under cover of darkness.
10. Each team would then spend the night waiting until about an hour before dawn for the attack. The RT would remain in position and keep "eyes on" to ensure that the hostages weren't moved during the night. At a predesignated time, all teams would move into their designated positions, the "starting line" for the attack.
11. The attack would commence simeltaneously with each bunker attacked with anti-armour weapons and GPMG's/SAW's. Each RT would commence killing guards and other terrorists and each AT would race to secure their respective and specific objectives. Each AT would be assigned a respective "finish line" for their assault in order to avoid "blue on blue's".
12. With the hostages now (hopefully) secured, and the bunkers destroyed or the weapons rendered inoperable, the FST's would turn to their tasks of operating as cut off groups and as early warning in case of any "counter attack". A sitrep would be provided and the helo's and reserve force flown in.
13. The reserve force would then assist the FST's to secure the area and the RT's and AT's would go through the processes of providing any first aid/casevac procedures required and ID'ing any remaining (alive) terrorists. The hostages and RT's (who would probably be exhausted), AT's and captured terrorists would then be flown from the area to a secure point. The helo's would return to withdraw the remaining troops from the area.
This is how I would try and plan an assault. I may be forgetting a few things, but it's been a long time since I've actually had to plan an attack. In this forum, I'm also not going to discuss things like recce/comms procedures and other operational information, as such things are vital to allowing these sorts of missions to suceed and most people don't need to know anything about them...
1. Gather as much intell about the terrorists from afar as possible, including continuing the already (apparently) open communications with the terrorists to try and negotiate a peaceful resolution and if unsuccessful at that, use the negotiations to gather as much useful intell information as possible whilst distracting the terrorists from protecting themselves.
2. Use half (6) of the Green Beret team to conduct a close reconnaissance (or close target recconaissance as the Brits call it) on the camp, and provide on site intell, including exact co-ordinates of the fortified positions, (0.50 cal machine guns etc) numbers of terrorists, weapons, equipment, demeanor, routine, camp layout etc, location of hostages and guards, the physical description of where the hostages are being held, ie: in the open, a building of some sort, a pit or cave, whether they are all together, held in separate locations, what they're condition is like (if they are starved and beaten they are unlikey to be able to walk far), etc, etc. Also use recce team to assess likely form up points (FUP's), fire support positions, escape routes, etc for assault teams.
3. The "reserve" special forces unit would be immediately brought into play. (This should give a force of approx 24 GB's and 62 Colombian soldiers). With all due respect to the Colombians, from what I've read of previous missions, they aren't exactly of the highest standard in the world. An IA (immediate action) plan would also be formed, ie: what do we do if hostages start getting capped? As well as a deliberate attack plan.
4. I would form the GB and Colombian soldiers into teams, (or squads if you like) with each squad led by GB soldiers. These teams would then commence training and practising with their pers weapons and equipment on likely assaults and depending on their skills and capabilities and the available intell, would be assigned preliminary roles.
5. After updated intell received and the political approval was given for the mission to go ahead this is what I'd plan. (Bearing in mind this is all theoretical)... After sufficient rehearsals (depending on the amount of time to rehearse) each team would be deployed by helo a long distance away, (maybe 10-15klms, depending on terrrain). Each team would then infil by foot to a pre-arranged and agreed upon lie up point, (LUP) depending on continually updated intell from the RT, the evening prior to the attack. The helo's (and reserve force) would be held in standby only a short flight away and would be (hopefully) of sufficient number to transport all troops, hostages and any captured terrorists. In addition a reserve force (if available, would be mounted on the helo's to help secure the area against rebel attack until the helo's can transport everyone out safely)
6. If a deliberate attack could be conducted I would assign a fire support team (FST) to attack each 0.50cal bunker using anti-armour weapons (AT-4's and LAW's, both have excellent anti-bunker characteristics in addition to anti-armour characteristics) and available machine guns/SAW's. I wouldn't bother with the Mortars at all. You want to rescue hostages not simply kill everyone there, Mortars aren't all THAT accurate and tend to be fairly indiscriminate not to mention lethal...
7. If proper equipment and skillsets were available I would also employ the recce team (RT) as snipers, with specific primary tasking of ensuring survival of hostages until an assault team (AT) can secure the hostages. Snipers would also have the secondary tasking of killing other terrorists and preventing any MANPAD launches should any terrorists escape the "net", when the helo's arrive. Each (FST) is to be primarily tasked with neutralising the bunkers and heavy weapons. Each FST also has secondary taskings of providing direct fire support for the AT's and acting as cut-off groups to ensure (as best as possible) no terrorists are able to escape.
8. My AT's would probably comprise 4 person teams, with a GB leading each team. 40 terrorists would, depending on how they are housed, probably require at least 8 AT's, plus Snipers/RT's, FST's and a reserve/evacuation force. The RTwould comprise 3x 2 man teams, depending on the size and layout of the target area. The FST's would comprise 6x4 man teams, and the reserve force would comprise 4x6 man teams, (due to limited GB's to lead each team and a probable shortage of helo's.
9. After infil, each assault/fire support team leader would conduct a briefing with the RT, at the LUP to obtain a clear picture of the target area and the latest intell. Each team would then be individually briefed by their respective team leader and if the go ahead for the attack was given, each team would move to a designated FUP under cover of darkness.
10. Each team would then spend the night waiting until about an hour before dawn for the attack. The RT would remain in position and keep "eyes on" to ensure that the hostages weren't moved during the night. At a predesignated time, all teams would move into their designated positions, the "starting line" for the attack.
11. The attack would commence simeltaneously with each bunker attacked with anti-armour weapons and GPMG's/SAW's. Each RT would commence killing guards and other terrorists and each AT would race to secure their respective and specific objectives. Each AT would be assigned a respective "finish line" for their assault in order to avoid "blue on blue's".
12. With the hostages now (hopefully) secured, and the bunkers destroyed or the weapons rendered inoperable, the FST's would turn to their tasks of operating as cut off groups and as early warning in case of any "counter attack". A sitrep would be provided and the helo's and reserve force flown in.
13. The reserve force would then assist the FST's to secure the area and the RT's and AT's would go through the processes of providing any first aid/casevac procedures required and ID'ing any remaining (alive) terrorists. The hostages and RT's (who would probably be exhausted), AT's and captured terrorists would then be flown from the area to a secure point. The helo's would return to withdraw the remaining troops from the area.
This is how I would try and plan an assault. I may be forgetting a few things, but it's been a long time since I've actually had to plan an attack. In this forum, I'm also not going to discuss things like recce/comms procedures and other operational information, as such things are vital to allowing these sorts of missions to suceed and most people don't need to know anything about them...
Ok, being the "Numb" that I am, let me tell you that without know the theatre of operation, primary and auxillary cannot be determined. Under different circumstances of the battlefield, logistics and battle strategy will change accordingly and to whatever the nation/faction's equipment availability. In a operation theatre like Afganistan, the role of armor unit will be rendered useless and infantry will be the main attack effort. Also the method of maintaining logistic will be different, trucks used in open terrain will easily be ambushed in the mountains which means air drops or helo transportation will play a heavy role. If I just tell you that there is a war going on and let you determine the main, auxillary efforts without telling you what factions are involved or where it has taken place, would you be able to come up with battle plans?manna said:
The U.S is winning wars both in Afganistan and Iraq, resistances level has gone down alot since the major operations ended, which means the PHYOP has paid off. The so called resistance movement you see so much on television is nothing more than a few cells of foreign fighters and the followers of the radical cleric in Najaf. The cleric's militia already agreed to make peace with the coalition forces due to heavy casualties they been sustaining. So that leaves the few foreign fighters who kidnaps civilians instead of fighting U.S forces. Give it a year or two and Iraq will be able to fully function on its own.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The US Marines and Canadian armed forces don't think Armour is useless in Afganistan. Both have deployed light armoured vehicles for the protection, firepower and mobility they provide. MBT's haven't been deployed mainly due to the difficulties getting them there I should think...
My mistake. I should have stated heavy armor.
Ok nuff land based armchair generalling.Let's take to the skies!
Scenario:
Airforce blue and red are evenly matched in terms of numbers and technology.
Red has the advantage of strategic depth over blue while it can reach all of blue's major installations relevant to airdefence.Red how ever faces a logistics problem in supplying it's 1st and 2nd tier FOBs which are not scattered and located near a major national highway plus the aircraft are kept concenterated at these bases. .Because of this it has built up huge stockpiles of weapons and fuel in locations situated conveniently close to a highway which runs near it's FOBs but which can be attacked by blue forces once a degree of control has been achieved freely other wise sporadically.Red has a good airdefence SAM network around it's bases but the stockpiles are defended only by AAA and MANPADS with a few mobile sam systems at the largest stockpiles.
Blue has the advantage in the fact that it has it's FOB's located at scattered but logistically reachable places both by road and air.The operational aircraft are well scattered in small sizes with the max strength of a dispersed group being no more than a squadron.Though this raises problems of flights in a package having to select RV points, mission planning problems and problems of interoperaability between different elements in a package.
It's however helped by the fact that there is a good nationwide airdefense system in place with strong defences provided for strategic installations and airbases.FOBs here are defended by mobile SAMs as well as MANPADS and AAA.There is also a very well developed GCI network with real time information about all of blue's AOR available to it's pilots and SAM operators at all times.
Both forces are equipped with AWACS and use a mix of late 3rd to mid 4th generation aircraft majority with datalinking capability.Both are required to give CAS to ground forces as and when necessary as the doctrines of both take the ground forces to be the primary force with other two subservient to it.
Now assuming I have'nt left anything out(you may add or delete or expand upon any of my points) what I want you people to do is hammer out strategies and tactics for both blue and red forces(you may do either one or both of the forces) for
1)An overall airsuperiority campaign
2)Attack on a major FOB
3)CAS mission when the tempo of CAP and OCA has to be raised
Scenario:
Airforce blue and red are evenly matched in terms of numbers and technology.
Red has the advantage of strategic depth over blue while it can reach all of blue's major installations relevant to airdefence.Red how ever faces a logistics problem in supplying it's 1st and 2nd tier FOBs which are not scattered and located near a major national highway plus the aircraft are kept concenterated at these bases. .Because of this it has built up huge stockpiles of weapons and fuel in locations situated conveniently close to a highway which runs near it's FOBs but which can be attacked by blue forces once a degree of control has been achieved freely other wise sporadically.Red has a good airdefence SAM network around it's bases but the stockpiles are defended only by AAA and MANPADS with a few mobile sam systems at the largest stockpiles.
Blue has the advantage in the fact that it has it's FOB's located at scattered but logistically reachable places both by road and air.The operational aircraft are well scattered in small sizes with the max strength of a dispersed group being no more than a squadron.Though this raises problems of flights in a package having to select RV points, mission planning problems and problems of interoperaability between different elements in a package.
It's however helped by the fact that there is a good nationwide airdefense system in place with strong defences provided for strategic installations and airbases.FOBs here are defended by mobile SAMs as well as MANPADS and AAA.There is also a very well developed GCI network with real time information about all of blue's AOR available to it's pilots and SAM operators at all times.
Both forces are equipped with AWACS and use a mix of late 3rd to mid 4th generation aircraft majority with datalinking capability.Both are required to give CAS to ground forces as and when necessary as the doctrines of both take the ground forces to be the primary force with other two subservient to it.
Now assuming I have'nt left anything out(you may add or delete or expand upon any of my points) what I want you people to do is hammer out strategies and tactics for both blue and red forces(you may do either one or both of the forces) for
1)An overall airsuperiority campaign
2)Attack on a major FOB
3)CAS mission when the tempo of CAP and OCA has to be raised
The critical thing is the platforms and weapons loadout. You might need to establish what they are and also if there are numerical limitations.
Ok.Blue operates a hi med lo mix of the following aircraft
64 F-16 block52+, 112 F16 A/B MLUs and 160 low end fighters (a mix of F-5Es and Mirage III/V upgraded to carry LGBs ASMs and with a nominal BVR capability)
The high and med end fighters are equipped with all weather day/night precision bombing capability and BVR missiles such as the AIM-120B and AIM-7MH and SuperR-530s.The high enders can also pack HARMS in a SEAD role.
There are numerical limitations because of the blue force's doctrine of being a force usually subservient to the army(this takes away planes from CAP and OCA to CAS) and primarily an airdefence force .The max they can spare for a concerted strike package is 4 aircraft from the hi and med forces with 6 from the low enders at any one time(this is the best they can do).But they have a very good maintanence dept which coupled with a pilotlane ratio of 3:1 means they have a high sortie turn around rate.
The Reds operate a similar mix but with a slight numerical edge in the high end dept.
48 Su-30 mk2 and 28 Su-27B/UB flankers in the high end area giving it a potent airdefence and strike force.The mid enders consist of 48 Mig-29 FulcrumCs, 80-Mig 27s upgraded for all weather strike.
The low end consists of about 180 Mig-21s with about 2 squadrons having gone an upgrade giving them a nominal BVR capability.
Their weapons are eastern block counters of the weapons employed by force Blue.Their aircraft suffer from the usual russian affliction of poor maintenence and therefore each type has an average of 65% availability at any given time.The pilotlane ratio is 1.5:1.
OK!I've exhausted my ideas can a proffessional please expand upon these and add new restraints/ideas tactics etc. :help
64 F-16 block52+, 112 F16 A/B MLUs and 160 low end fighters (a mix of F-5Es and Mirage III/V upgraded to carry LGBs ASMs and with a nominal BVR capability)
The high and med end fighters are equipped with all weather day/night precision bombing capability and BVR missiles such as the AIM-120B and AIM-7MH and SuperR-530s.The high enders can also pack HARMS in a SEAD role.
There are numerical limitations because of the blue force's doctrine of being a force usually subservient to the army(this takes away planes from CAP and OCA to CAS) and primarily an airdefence force .The max they can spare for a concerted strike package is 4 aircraft from the hi and med forces with 6 from the low enders at any one time(this is the best they can do).But they have a very good maintanence dept which coupled with a pilot
lane ratio of 3:1 means they have a high sortie turn around rate.The Reds operate a similar mix but with a slight numerical edge in the high end dept.
48 Su-30 mk2 and 28 Su-27B/UB flankers in the high end area giving it a potent airdefence and strike force.The mid enders consist of 48 Mig-29 FulcrumCs, 80-Mig 27s upgraded for all weather strike.
The low end consists of about 180 Mig-21s with about 2 squadrons having gone an upgrade giving them a nominal BVR capability.
Their weapons are eastern block counters of the weapons employed by force Blue.Their aircraft suffer from the usual russian affliction of poor maintenence and therefore each type has an average of 65% availability at any given time.The pilot
lane ratio is 1.5:1.OK!I've exhausted my ideas can a proffessional please expand upon these and add new restraints/ideas tactics etc. :help
Is air battle management capability present for both?, airborne for both or ground controlled? If it's air controlled is it autonomous (like a Phalcon) or as an extended picket (like an Eyrie)???