Lets Compare a 1995 mig-29 and a fc-1 2005

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
P.A.F said:
my opinion is that JF-17 will outrun any type of MIG-29 ;)
sorry P.A.F. the power to weight ratio will probably be a bit in the Fulcrums favour.

The JF-17 might try to keep up, but I suspect it would be having the aviation equivalent of an asthma attack. ;)
 

adsH

New Member
gf0012 said:
P.A.F said:
my opinion is that JF-17 will outrun any type of MIG-29 ;)
sorry P.A.F. the power to weight ratio will probably be a bit in the Fulcrums favour.

The JF-17 might try to keep up, but I suspect it would be having the aviation equivalent of an asthma attack. ;)
GF it was never designed for high speeds PAF admitted that, First off all its designed for Air to ground missions and if need be Air to air. no one willbe out running any one once inside PAF territory. the JF-17 will be in numbers about 150 -200 of them placed around the PAF terratory in forward Operational Backward operational-and Central Operational Bases. at that point Maneuverability and missile armaments would count. I am assuming since the Mig has two engines and older versions of the same JF-17 engines, it would require alot more refueling then the JF-17 i doubt it would be able to put up a fight for long when it would be Ambushed By loads of JF-17 and then The Grippens. and then the F-16 if the need came. JF-17 is not an attack or for intrusions there are others in PAF inventory that can do the job better this AC will be used within the territory.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
GF it was never designed for high speeds PAF admitted that
adsH, but we aren't talking about that either. We are talking about power to weight ratio, which is a completely different beast.

it's a bit like someone who gets excited about the top speed of a car, whereas the driver understands that it's going to be the car with the most torque that will be important for an uphill race under pressure... ;)

top speed doesn't mean much in a plane. A Mig-25/31 has a high max top speed, but it can't supercruise at it, and it can't sustain it without shaking itself to bits, whereas an SR-71 can sit on Mach 3 for 90% of its flight time with no stress. One is designed to sprint, one is a long distance runner.

I know what I'd pick. The most powerful, sustained power platform, and 2 engines gives you load balanced absolute thrust with a good power to weight combo.

Most people tend to get excited at top speeds - and it's not a good measurement for operation effectiveness. If you can load the sucker up with weapons till its wings are ready to fall off, and it still outclimbs and outranges the "fancypants" opposition - then it's a no brainer.

As a bad analogy, thats why Prowlers were more effective muli-tasking platforms than F-5's.
 

adsH

New Member
Thnx for all that explanation but, it seems like you know alot about the Mig 29 would you happen to know how many times a Mig 29 has to refuel or lets take it this way how often will it need refueling during a Patrol. Don't get me wrong i am sure the Mig would out perform JF-17 any day, and specially with those israeli Electronics it would just be an overkill. but i still think when it will come to air to air combat with inn PAF territory it will remain at a disadvantage. I am not sure what a Mig 29 is used for interception or interdiction. but one thing i do know its a well desinged platform for an era that has passed.

asides from this topic i have actually read this some where that the New JSF or is it the raptor wil have sutained super-cruise capability at 1.5 mach.what advantage will that give to it. i think it will be able to sprint away and then maintain its lead with other AC chasing it (Chasing it !! Highly unlikely) but just assuming its trying to escape it sprints at high mach the other AC follows and both start over heating. both reduce Speed but raptor drops to Super-cruise speed and the other AC drops to sub sonic speed so the Raptor can actually out runn any AC right.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
would you happen to know how many times a Mig 29 has to refuel or lets take it this way how often will it need refueling during a Patrol
How long is a piece of string?? ;)

The easiest way to show the opportunity difference is as follows:

Larger twin aircraft tend to be able to have a higher and more varied weapons load out - simplistically, more bombs/missiles available to put on target

They have a longer range, hence a longer loiter time at short attack runs

Their size invariably means that their EW/onboard radar systems have greater power, depth and discrimination. Hence they can stay and fight more on their own terms against a smaller OPFOR platform with less capability. They are not as dependant on an integrated controller, once you couple them up with an effective GCI or AWACs then the numbers start to shift in their favour.

It's why sortie rates, maintenance and logistics are the combination killers to efficiency. A more reliable platform, with less logistics demands, greater turn around times etc will have an advantage over a platform that may carry more, but be less reliable. Then you have to add in doctrine efficiency, pilot capability etc...

The continental structure of India points towards a larger long range striker as being more to their advantage. As an example, this is because they can deploy aircraft from the other side of the country concurrently and escalate the tempo accordingly. Pakistan on the other hand lacks the same continental advantage, so it would seem to favour a platform that dominates in point defence, short haul intercept etc...

It's very difficult to just compare both countries on a platform to platform basis, the geography alone dictates differing air-battle doctrines. Similarly the Navy ORBAT for both nations is also affected by geographical imperatives.



It's an enormously long "piece of string"
 

Salman78

New Member
I'd say they would be evenly matched although mig-29 is always short on fuel and carrying fuel tanks takes a toll on its manouverability.
 

Salman78

New Member
Radar selection for JF-17 is still pending...

Twin engines only mean better performance and thrust to weight ratio. It dosnt translate into increased speed or Mach number or in some cases acceleration.

This teaming up should NOT be tolerated by Moderaters on this Forum...
 

Salman78

New Member
Grifo S7 is not going to be JF-17's standard radar. PAF might acquire a few of them so they can test the systems. It might end up in F-7PG as its a small radar and can fit in the nose cone of a F-7. So chill, wait and watch...
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
That my friend is the Griffo-7pg, not the S-7.The S-7 is an improved and advanced version of the Griffo-2000(used in NATO standard F-16 MLUs)
 
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