purofighter
New Member
Does anyone have any idea about the effectiveness of a torpedo as an anti ship weapon in comparison to anti ship missiles of modern day?
Lethality of Torpedo as Anti-ship weapon vis-a-vis anti-ship missiles
- Thread starter purofighter
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EXSSBN2005
New Member
If your close enough to your target a torp is the way to go, larger warhead and less defences vs the actual weapon (vs the launch platform is a different matter, then its still vs a ship or sub before it gets in range which is what detecting and tracking is all about). True a torp is slower but if the wire is still attached you can get multiple passes and a CIWS cant really engage it. I'm not sure about the penetrating power thru hull armor as I was in engineering and not weapons dept but fairly sure that 650lb warhead will penetrate just about anything that is floating today (maybe not an Iowa class BB but they are all mothballed atm so not going to guess at the penetrating power vs them). Torpedo's also come in below the waterline so you have to deal with flooding and fires in addition to the damage caused from the blast. For comparison here is the link to the US Navy fact sheets on weapons and platforms, The US Navy Fact Files and if it didnt come out correctly on the paste I'll copy the mk-48 adcap and harpoon entries to the post.
Heavyweight Torpedo - MK 48
Description
The MK 48 heavyweight torpedo is used by all classes of submarines and their anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-surface warfare (ASuW) weapon. In recent years, the Navy has taken to viewing the MK 48 as a modular weapon and has undertaken efforts to improve specific areas including its propulsion, guidance, and homing systems. With a need to continue torpedo performance upgrade programs to counter continuously evolving threats, the Navy developed the MK 48 Advanced Capability (ADCAP) upgrade.
The MK 48 ADCAP torpedo is the replacement for the MK 48 Mod 4 torpedo. Authroized for full production in 1990, the ADCAP counters surface and submarine threats with greater speed and accuracy than previous torpedoes. It is a heavyweight acoustic-homing torpedo with sophisticated sonar, all-digital guidance-and-control systems, digital fusing systems, and propulsion improvements. Its digital guidance system allows for repeated improvements to counter evolving threats through sofware upgrades. The last new ADCAP torpedo was delivered in 1996.
The MK 48 ADCAP Mod 6 torpedo combines two significant enhancements: one in guidance and control (G&C Mod), and the other in the torpedo propulsion unit (TPU Mod). The G&C Mod improves the acoustic receiver, replaces the guidance-and-control set with updated technology, increases memory, and improves processor throughput to handle the expanded software demands required to improve torpedo performance against evolving threats. The TPU Mod provides a tactically significant reduction in torpedo radiated-noise signatures. The MK 48 Mod 6 torpedo reached Initial Operational Capability (IOC) in 1997 and the latest improvement was fielded in 2009. The Mod 6 is also the first torpedo that can utilize the Torpedo Downloader System (TD) that can provide rapid software updates to embarked weapons, allowing the submarine to deploy wth the most up-to-date software variant.
The MK 48 ADCAP Mod 7 Common Broadband Advanced Sonar System (CBASS) torpedo is optimized for both the deep and littoral waters and has advanced counter-countermeasure capabilities. The MK 48 ADCAP Mod 7 (CBASS) torpedo is the result of a Joint Development Program with the Royal Australian Navy and reached Initial Operational Capability in 2006. Current improvement efforts are focusing on improving CBASS performance in shallow water against the most challenging of targets.
Point Of Contact
Naval Sea Systems Command
Office of Corporate Communications (SEA 00D)
Washington, DC 20376
General Characteristics, MK 48
Primary Function: Heavyweight Torpedo
Contractor: Raytheon
Propulsion: piston engine; pump jet
Diameter: 21 inches
Weight: 3,520 pounds
Speed: Greater than 28 knots (32.2 mph, 51.52 kph
Range: more than 5 miles
Depth: Greater than 1,200 ft (365.76 meters)
Warhead: 650 pounds, high-explosive
Last Update: 13 September 2010
Harpoon Missile
Description
The A/U/RGM-84 Harpoon is an all- weather, over-the-horizon, anti-ship missile system.
Features
The Harpoon’s active radar guidance, warhead design, low-level cruise trajectory, and terminal mode sea-skim or pop-up maneuvers assure high survivability and effectiveness. The missile is capable of being launched from surface ships, submarines, shore batteries, or aircraft (without the booster).
Background
Originally developed for the Navy to serve as its basic anti-ship missile for fleet-wide use. The A/R/UGM-84 was first introduced in 1977, and in 1979 the air-launched version was deployed on the Navy's P-3C Orion aircraft. The Harpoon was also adapted for use on USAF B-52H bombers, which can carry from 8 to 12 of the missiles. The Harpoon missile has been integrated on foreign F-16 aircraft and is presently being integrated on foreign F-15 aircraft. Under a 1998 agreement between Boeing and the Navy, an advanced upgrade to Harpoon missile was developed. This Harpoon Block II missile incorporated Global Positioning System-assisted inertial navigation, which enables the system to have both an anti-ship and a land attack capability.
Service
Navy and Air Force, and 27 foreign nations.
Point Of Contact
Program Executive Office, Strike Weapons and Unmanned Aviation [PEO (W)]
Public Affairs Department
47123 Buse Road, Unit IPT
Bldg. 2272, Suite 245
Patuxent River, MD 20670-5440
(301) 757-5289
General Characteristics
Primary Function: Air, ship, and foreign submarine and land-based coastal defense battery launched anti-ship cruise missile.
Contractor: The Boeing Company.
Date Deployed: 1977.
Unit Cost: $1,200,000 for Harpoon Block II.
Propulsion: Teledyne Turbojet / solid propellant booster for surface and submarine launch. Thrust: greater than 600 pounds (greater than 272.2 kg).
Length: Air launched: 12 feet, 7 inches (3.8 meters); Surface and submarine launched: 15 feet (4.6 meters)
Diameter: 13.5 inches (34.3 cm).
Wingspan: 3 feet (91.4 cm) with booster fins and wings.
Weight: 1,523 pounds (690.8 kg) with booster.
Speed: High subsonic.
Range: Over-the-horizon, in excess of 67 nautical miles (124 km).
Guidance System: Sea-skimming cruise monitored by radar altimeter / active radar terminal homing.
Warhead: Penetration / high-explosive blast (488 pounds/224 kg).
Last Update: 20 February 2009
Heavyweight Torpedo - MK 48
Description
The MK 48 heavyweight torpedo is used by all classes of submarines and their anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-surface warfare (ASuW) weapon. In recent years, the Navy has taken to viewing the MK 48 as a modular weapon and has undertaken efforts to improve specific areas including its propulsion, guidance, and homing systems. With a need to continue torpedo performance upgrade programs to counter continuously evolving threats, the Navy developed the MK 48 Advanced Capability (ADCAP) upgrade.
The MK 48 ADCAP torpedo is the replacement for the MK 48 Mod 4 torpedo. Authroized for full production in 1990, the ADCAP counters surface and submarine threats with greater speed and accuracy than previous torpedoes. It is a heavyweight acoustic-homing torpedo with sophisticated sonar, all-digital guidance-and-control systems, digital fusing systems, and propulsion improvements. Its digital guidance system allows for repeated improvements to counter evolving threats through sofware upgrades. The last new ADCAP torpedo was delivered in 1996.
The MK 48 ADCAP Mod 6 torpedo combines two significant enhancements: one in guidance and control (G&C Mod), and the other in the torpedo propulsion unit (TPU Mod). The G&C Mod improves the acoustic receiver, replaces the guidance-and-control set with updated technology, increases memory, and improves processor throughput to handle the expanded software demands required to improve torpedo performance against evolving threats. The TPU Mod provides a tactically significant reduction in torpedo radiated-noise signatures. The MK 48 Mod 6 torpedo reached Initial Operational Capability (IOC) in 1997 and the latest improvement was fielded in 2009. The Mod 6 is also the first torpedo that can utilize the Torpedo Downloader System (TD) that can provide rapid software updates to embarked weapons, allowing the submarine to deploy wth the most up-to-date software variant.
The MK 48 ADCAP Mod 7 Common Broadband Advanced Sonar System (CBASS) torpedo is optimized for both the deep and littoral waters and has advanced counter-countermeasure capabilities. The MK 48 ADCAP Mod 7 (CBASS) torpedo is the result of a Joint Development Program with the Royal Australian Navy and reached Initial Operational Capability in 2006. Current improvement efforts are focusing on improving CBASS performance in shallow water against the most challenging of targets.
Point Of Contact
Naval Sea Systems Command
Office of Corporate Communications (SEA 00D)
Washington, DC 20376
General Characteristics, MK 48
Primary Function: Heavyweight Torpedo
Contractor: Raytheon
Propulsion: piston engine; pump jet
Diameter: 21 inches
Weight: 3,520 pounds
Speed: Greater than 28 knots (32.2 mph, 51.52 kph
Range: more than 5 miles
Depth: Greater than 1,200 ft (365.76 meters)
Warhead: 650 pounds, high-explosive
Last Update: 13 September 2010
Harpoon Missile
Description
The A/U/RGM-84 Harpoon is an all- weather, over-the-horizon, anti-ship missile system.
Features
The Harpoon’s active radar guidance, warhead design, low-level cruise trajectory, and terminal mode sea-skim or pop-up maneuvers assure high survivability and effectiveness. The missile is capable of being launched from surface ships, submarines, shore batteries, or aircraft (without the booster).
Background
Originally developed for the Navy to serve as its basic anti-ship missile for fleet-wide use. The A/R/UGM-84 was first introduced in 1977, and in 1979 the air-launched version was deployed on the Navy's P-3C Orion aircraft. The Harpoon was also adapted for use on USAF B-52H bombers, which can carry from 8 to 12 of the missiles. The Harpoon missile has been integrated on foreign F-16 aircraft and is presently being integrated on foreign F-15 aircraft. Under a 1998 agreement between Boeing and the Navy, an advanced upgrade to Harpoon missile was developed. This Harpoon Block II missile incorporated Global Positioning System-assisted inertial navigation, which enables the system to have both an anti-ship and a land attack capability.
Service
Navy and Air Force, and 27 foreign nations.
Point Of Contact
Program Executive Office, Strike Weapons and Unmanned Aviation [PEO (W)]
Public Affairs Department
47123 Buse Road, Unit IPT
Bldg. 2272, Suite 245
Patuxent River, MD 20670-5440
(301) 757-5289
General Characteristics
Primary Function: Air, ship, and foreign submarine and land-based coastal defense battery launched anti-ship cruise missile.
Contractor: The Boeing Company.
Date Deployed: 1977.
Unit Cost: $1,200,000 for Harpoon Block II.
Propulsion: Teledyne Turbojet / solid propellant booster for surface and submarine launch. Thrust: greater than 600 pounds (greater than 272.2 kg).
Length: Air launched: 12 feet, 7 inches (3.8 meters); Surface and submarine launched: 15 feet (4.6 meters)
Diameter: 13.5 inches (34.3 cm).
Wingspan: 3 feet (91.4 cm) with booster fins and wings.
Weight: 1,523 pounds (690.8 kg) with booster.
Speed: High subsonic.
Range: Over-the-horizon, in excess of 67 nautical miles (124 km).
Guidance System: Sea-skimming cruise monitored by radar altimeter / active radar terminal homing.
Warhead: Penetration / high-explosive blast (488 pounds/224 kg).
Last Update: 20 February 2009
"Close" is a relative term with modern torpedoes. DM2A4 will strike a group of multiple targets with clusters of up to eight heavy torpedoes from well over 30 nm away.
ADCAP is optimized against underwater targets btw. It's usable against surface targets, but there are better options.
EXSSBN2005
New Member
By close i meant with in the engagement envelope (relative to the range of a ASuM), we only had ADCAPs on the sub I was on as they were only for self defence as surface ships didn't know we were there until we killed one of them in wargames.
For further lethality of torp vs missles USS Stark was the only US ships actually hit (but not sunk) by Anti-ship missiles and thats b/c its CIWS was in stby mode and it was masked by its position for its standard missiles, where as many ships (mostly ww2 and before ) have been lost to torpedos (and mines).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
The question does need a little clarification, in terms of what type torpedo. There are lightweight torpedoes which can be dropped from MPA and ASW aircraft, as well as fired via ASROC, or launched from ASW vessels. Then there are heavyweight torpedoes like most submarines, and a few surface vessels fire.
Assuming the torpedo is a heavyweight, and within effective launch range of the target, a heavyweight torpedo is going to be more likely to sink a vessel. This is because many of the torpedoes now are designed to detonate beneath the target vessel instead of on impact. By detonating beneath a ship, there is a change in what is supporting the vessel in the water, and such a sudden change can break the back of a vessel.
Most AShM, even those with large warheads, not able to effect the hull sufficiently to reliably sink a vessel.
-Cheers
Assuming the torpedo is a heavyweight, and within effective launch range of the target, a heavyweight torpedo is going to be more likely to sink a vessel. This is because many of the torpedoes now are designed to detonate beneath the target vessel instead of on impact. By detonating beneath a ship, there is a change in what is supporting the vessel in the water, and such a sudden change can break the back of a vessel.
Most AShM, even those with large warheads, not able to effect the hull sufficiently to reliably sink a vessel.
-Cheers
Modern torpedoes remain a sailors worst nightmare, they are designed to break the back of warships and send them to the bottom quickly. Just check out Youtube and see how a large destroyer sized vessel is lifted almost out of the water after being hit by a modern heavyweight torpedo. Water tamping also greatly adds to the damage caused by the blast/over-pressure.
Going back to the Falklands, ships struck by bombs/Exocet's remained afloat for some considerable time allowing for an organised damage control system to kick-in providing time for an orderly abandon ship. Compare that to the Belgrano an armoured Cruiser which sank in 40 minutes having been hit by two fairly unsophisticated torpedoes striking the side of the vessel (rather than exploding underneath).
Do modern heavyweight torpedoes like the MK48 ADCAP, Blackshark and Spearfish have a straight running impact mode like WW2 torps?
Even if it doesn't sink the target the ship will effectively be mission killed.
Why would they? Bursting under the hull is more effective, it will either snap the keel or blow out the stern seals on the shafts and cause massive flooding that can't easily be stopped.
Yes, and I'm convinced that even if their warheads don't ignite, supersonic missiles like the Shipwreck or Moskit will literally slice a hull almost in two.
Twinblade
Member
What about latest Russian AShMs ? Doesn't their kinematic impact with 650 lbs warhead, striking 10 m above waterline cause massive damage to the hull ?
Probably not much worse than a hit by a 16" HE round.
If I remember correctly they use to figure that it would take an average of 3 to 4 hits from a battleship to actually sink a cruiser promptly. Figure 2 to 3 of those big missiles, mostly because the fuses are more reliable.
:hul
If they do not detonate the missile warhead will punch right through the hull and out the other side, the rest of the missile gets shredded. No way the hull gets sliced in two, there is no physical mechanism that permits it. :sniper
:eek
It is also useful if you are trying to minimize casualties by giving the crew time to abandon ship. :eek
Shaft seals usually only blow out if you hit near the stern, wake chasers and acoustic homers tend to do that. The flooding is not nearly the problem for a surface ship as it is for a submarine.
Found a nice paper about the different damage modes for an underwater explosion on a ship. http://dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/dspace/bitstream/1947/3833/1/DSTO-GD-0109%20%20PR.pdf
Of course modern torpedoes have an impact mode, because sometime you need to go after a ship in shallow water.:hul
It is also useful if you are trying to minimize casualties by giving the crew time to abandon ship. :eek
Shaft seals usually only blow out if you hit near the stern, wake chasers and acoustic homers tend to do that. The flooding is not nearly the problem for a surface ship as it is for a submarine.
Found a nice paper about the different damage modes for an underwater explosion on a ship. http://dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/dspace/bitstream/1947/3833/1/DSTO-GD-0109%20%20PR.pdf
Twinblade
Member
even if the warhead does not detonate, the rest of the missile will act like a massive supersonic cannonball , and flower up and fragment on collision, resulting in a massive "exit wound"
not necessarily so.
its contingent on the speed of the damage control and the type of vessel involved
eg modern designs allow vessels to close off damaged cells very very quickly
a torpedo or series of torpedo strikes will break the ships keel and cause catastrophic damage. it literally breaks its back
I'd argue that a torpedo (depending on the type) is something to be feared over and above a AShM, as the former is harder to detect and/or counter.
some of the proximity tests I've witnessed with skimmers have been quite an eye opener - again it depends on what systems we talk about. IMO, a torpedo is far more likely to cause a catastrophic event as well as an elevated chance of a mobility kill (ie defined as taking them out of being able to effectively participate in the fight)
vessel survivability will go up with vessel size and be contingent on recency of construction
No. The construction of the missile is wrong and most pieces will be too small, with the exception of turbine rotor shaft, if present. It will tear up the inside of the first couple rooms, and any left over fuel will create a fire, but it will not 'slice a hull almost in two' unless it is a fairly small vessel.
Look at the Falklands War (they had a least one hit from a missile that failed to detonate), and Pentagon attack on 9/11 for examples of likely damage.
And cannon balls do not open up, they just ricochet around. :ar15
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Few surface ships this days still uses torpedoes for Anti Ship weapons. Most used them as Anti Subs. Whille Subs uses their Torps as Anti Ships/Surface and Anti Subs. Most Surface ships uses ASM for Anti Ships duties.
In sense if we talked about using Torps vs Missiles as Anti Ships, then we might just argue what is more effective as Anti ships platform, surface ships vs subs.
In sense if we talked about using Torps vs Missiles as Anti Ships, then we might just argue what is more effective as Anti ships platform, surface ships vs subs.
Anti-ship torpedoes are slower and deadlier, but missiles are fast and have much longer effective ranges. So it comes down to how and what you are expecting to fight. Against small agile vessels, torpedoes are probably not very effective compared to missiles. Against large vessels, such as an aircraft carrier with protective escort, 1 or 2 torpedoes from a submarine could be more effective than 100 missiles.
As for the targets in between . . . let the debate continue! :argue
As for the targets in between . . . let the debate continue! :argue
Ananda
The Bunker Group
The debate seems more on the weapons and not on the launched platform of the weapons. Anti-Ship torpedoes now more and more are the domain of Submarines, since surface combatan ships that being armed with Anti-ships Torpedoes is getiing scarcier.
Whille with the ASM, eventhough newer Subs, are equiped with that, but still the majority of Surface ASM/SSM being launched through surface combatan vessels. Thus the different of of platform also determines how it's going to be used, which in the end will reflect the effectiveness of weapons.
In sense talking about Anti-ship torpedoes now also must put into calculation on how effective the current generations of Subs on conducting raid and attack. Thus since it's primary lauched platform is Submarines, Anti-Ship torpedoes more and more build in tune with the nature of Subs such as "stealthiness' and unpredictibility on approach. It's more and more build as silent killer, whille missiles more and more being used for area/fleet saturations weapons.
EXSSBN2005
New Member
So as far as the original question goes general concensus looks like torps vs missiles when they actually hit you, your ship might live thru a missile hit where as a torpedo hit will probably send you to the bottem, on to the probability of a hit is where it looks like this is going now, else why are nations with smaller naval budgets investing in subs and smaller missile carrying ships.