KAI KF-21

[Ananda]

Type 214 has to be a front runner but what about a bespoke Korean submarine design like the DSME2000? Indonesia has to be honest. Is the Singapore Navy’s Type 218SG a threat that the TNI AL need to face or is it a partner to work with?

When I have occasionally talk with people from Defense circle in Indonesia, it can be said when they see what Singapore have, is not on perspective of threat but more on; well my neighbor has it, I have to have it also.

In my opinion it's more like I have a Nissan in my garage now, but my neighbor just bought Mercedes. Thus I have to buy Mercedes also or BMW, Audi or Lexus. Well the way I see, the ASEAN neighborhood still fill with neighbors envy. Not in sense of threat, but more I need to be seen not to far off from my neighbor.

On the matter of Submarine or defense equipment overall, there's seems two visions that not always in coherence which each other. One is the vision I need to have something that not far off with my neighbor, while the other is what I have must come out from my own Industry.

This's going to be a problem, since Indonesian defense industry still need a lot off learning curve. In fact Prabowo's in the Parliament also stated that Indonesia Defense Technology still need a lot of catching up with others Defense Technology, especially in manufacturing.

PAL it self in media already talk that they need the second batch of 209 DSME to complete their learning curve. In such the Industry it self see that they can't being asked to jump to latest technology, as they need the learning curve.

Thus this process with ROK on KFX or DSME 209 set by SBY administration to coincide with local Industry learning cycle. PAL need to learn from relative basic technological modern submarine type first. Thus why DSME type 209 being choose. Just like DI has no experience on Fighters manufacturing, that's why involvement with KFX as Junior Partner is being choose. Off course the budget availability dictate that, but also it's step by step approach.

However right now, Jokowi's administration seems have bit different idea. They still want to have local industry involvement, but they also demand to be involved with more Technological stages.
How to make local industry jump the learning curve ? Well that's the question that many including me also curious to see how to do it.

 

[OPSSG]

When I have occasionally talk with people from Defense circle in Indonesia, it can be said when they see what Singapore have, is not on perspective of threat but more on; well my neighbor has it, I have to have it also.

In my opinion it's more like I have a Nissan in my garage now, but my neighbor just bought Mercedes. Thus I have to buy Mercedes also or BMW, Audi or Lexus. Well the way I see, the ASEAN neighborhood still fill with neighbors envy. Not in sense of threat, but more I need to be seen not to far off from my neighbor.

Off-topic but interesting pics below.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153897374856560642

Exercise Eagle Indopura, which began in 1974, is the SAF’s longest-running bilateral exercise with any foreign armed forces.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1311952425352273921

I remain hopeful that there will be more cooperation between the TNI and the SAF — long may Exercise Safkar Indopura and Exercise Chandrapura continue.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153322091753553922

There is plenty of scope for increased collaboration and cross attendance of courses, in the army, navy and Air Force. Every Chief of Army in the SAF has had a stint in Indonesia and speaks the language.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/382063016465809408

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1311442198672543744

This guy Twitter on KFX really move right and left...from implying will be out from KFX and now implying other way around.

Well just like Indonesia defense procurement on some big items other projects, moving back and forth from yes to no.
Anyway if they still keep 20% development costs, then the work share should be 20% for all projects and not just work share on Indonesian License Product (well that's IFX will be, license Production of KFX in Indonesia).
That's what International Partners on F-35 getting, work share on their parts products being used as part of overall F-35 ecosystem.

This drama like Su-35, will be interesting to see how the ends will be.

The negotiations were last month, but there is no announcement of the results, remarkable. Maybe the negotiations are all failed and the demands of more IP, less payments and payments in goods are all rejected by the Koreans, and the people of our side dont know how to tell this emberrassing failure to the press and public.

Anyway i dont follow this Alman Helvas, its all speculations, guesses, maybies and likelies without sources or signs of proof.

 

[Ahmad]

The negotiations were last month, but there is no announcement of the results, remarkable. Maybe the negotiations are all failed and the demands of more IP, less payments and payments in goods are all rejected by the Koreans, and the people of our side dont know how to tell this emberrassing failure to the press and public.

Anyway i dont follow this Alman Helvas, its all speculations, guesses, maybies and likelies without sources or signs of proof.

Alman usually only hear speculation among the inner circle that he knows. As we all know, many decision is made from options, so he just show what is the options being thought (not all option of course but the options that are being taught by his source that could be incomplete), so what he said is not necessary the final decision that have already been made. He also in many times makes his own opinion/speculation base on his own preference over some information that he has given/he knows, so we have to be clever to distinguish between the real information and his own opinion/interpretation.

Just giving one example here:

He is the first who said that Dirgantara Indonesian engineers are coming back to Indonesia in March this year, much earlier than Korean/International Media said thing like that. The coming back is an information, but he then make his own conclusion by saying it shows the dire relationship between Indonesia and Korea over the KFX/IFX program. Actually when I saw his tweet I made my own conclusion that the coming back is caused by Covid 19, and it was then being revealed by Jane Defense that it is indeed due to Covid and Indonesian engineers was preparing to come back in last June when Korea has already been able to control the pandemic.

So many of the information that he can gather is actually not complete that could possibly make him give wrong judgement when he tries to interpret it (or maybe to suit his own personal agenda), but he did give some good information though that could be valuable to see some of the options on the table in term of future acquisition and other things related to our defense.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Air Force seeks name for fighter jet

South Korea’s Air Force is looking for a name for its first domestically developed fighter jet, currently known by the project name KF-X.

Citizens can submit one candidate name each by the end of this month, and three winners will receive the Air Force Chief’s recognition awards and model aircraft.

Air Force seeks name for fighter jet

South Korea’s Air Force is looking for a name for its next-generation fighter jet, known by the project name KF-X. Citizens can submit one candidate name each by the end of this month, and three winners will receive the Air Force Chief’s recognition awards and model aircraft. The KF-X project...

m.koreaherald.com

So, for all South-Korean Defencetalk-members...you have time until end this month!

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

After the KFX, KAI plans to develop a transport aircraft. No technical characteristics yet in this article.

South Korea’s KAI looks to enter military transport market

Korea Aerospace Industries is considering adding military transport planes to its product line with the goal of partnering with foreign aircraft manufacturers, Defense News has learned.

www.defensenews.com

".......KAI is eyeing international partnerships, the source said, specifically European company Airbus Defence and Space, Ukraine’s Antonov, and Brazil’s Embraer."
Well its not a surprise that their KFX-partner is not on the list. I have the feeling that until this administration ends in 2024, South-Korea doesnt dare to start a project with Indonesia.

 

[Ahmad]

After the KFX, KAI plans to develop a transport aircraft. No technical characteristics yet in this article.

South Korea’s KAI looks to enter military transport market

Korea Aerospace Industries is considering adding military transport planes to its product line with the goal of partnering with foreign aircraft manufacturers, Defense News has learned.

www.defensenews.com

".......KAI is eyeing international partnerships, the source said, specifically European company Airbus Defence and Space, Ukraine’s Antonov, and Brazil’s Embraer."
Well its not a surprise that their KFX-partner is not on the list. I have the feeling that until this administration ends in 2024, South-Korea doesnt dare to start a project with Indonesia.

This is an old attempt by the way, I bet you still remember KAI effort to make a cooperation with PTDI to build new medium size passenger aircraft several years ago. I believe the cooperation is not interesting for Indonesia since we lack of both engineers and financial resources to do three project simulataneously and not to mention the focus on N 219 to get certification and making a new large factory intended for N 219 that includes automation as well (they still search for the fund until Today).

 

[ngatimozart]

After the KFX, KAI plans to develop a transport aircraft. No technical characteristics yet in this article.

South Korea’s KAI looks to enter military transport market

Korea Aerospace Industries is considering adding military transport planes to its product line with the goal of partnering with foreign aircraft manufacturers, Defense News has learned.

www.defensenews.com

".......KAI is eyeing international partnerships, the source said, specifically European company Airbus Defence and Space, Ukraine’s Antonov, and Brazil’s Embraer."
Well its not a surprise that their KFX-partner is not on the list. I have the feeling that until this administration ends in 2024, South-Korea doesnt dare to start a project with Indonesia.

Yep I read that, so it will be interesting what type of transport that they tend to develop. Will it be something along the lines of a:

• C-27J / C295 size,
• C-130 / Embraer C390 size,
• A400 / KHI C-2 size,
• or even in the C-17 size?

We can only wonder at the moment. To be honest if they built a C-17 clone I think a few countries would be interested, but even something with a 50 tonne payload and a cargo hold of similar dimensions to the C-17 could be a good seller.

 

[Ananda]

To be honest if they built a C-17 clone I think a few countries would be interested, but even something with a 50 tonne payload and a cargo hold of similar dimensions to the C-17 could be a good seller.

That's the range Turkey and Ukraine try to tap with that turbofan version of AN-70 based. However I think it's bit too much for KAI doing it alone. Turkey try to do it with partnering with Antonov proven design.

Considering their relationship with Airbus before on Helicopters project, I suspect if anything it will be smaller A400M with twin same turboprop instead of four. It will be around 15-18 tn capacity thus C-130 or C-390 range.

 

[ngatimozart]

That's the range Turkey and Ukraine try to tap with that turbofan version of AN-70 based. However I think it's bit too much for KAI doing it alone. Turkey try to do it with partnering with Antonov proven design.

Considering their relationship with Airbus before on Helicopters project, I suspect if anything it will be smaller A400M with twin same turboprop instead of four. It will be around 15-18 tn capacity thus C-130 or C-390 range.

Yep, I think that if they were just building for the South Korean military market they wouldn't have much competition. However the international market is a different story and I believe that they would struggle there against the C-130. Embraer are struggling internationally with their C390 especially after Boeing pulled the pin on their deal. It looks like that KAI are going to build 2 variants though, a military variant and a civilian variant so that may be a better option for them.

Regarding the Turkish - Antonov deal, I think that they will struggle because Antonov don't have a tie up with a Western aviation manufacturer such as Airbus or SAAB, and Turkey doesn't have a real track record in aviation, plus it has political problems that would be seen as too risky.

 

[Ananda]

To be able to export airplanes, whether for commercial use or military, besides the proven record of support availability and parts affordability from the Suppliers/Manufacturer, also more and more available credit lines.

Embrear commercial Jets (E Series) are proven Products in the market. That's why being supported by many Airliners Financing institution. Even that, Embrear knows to fight the competition (which's A220) they need bigger support. That's why they're agree being tied up with Boeing. With Boeing walk down on the tied up, Embrear now trying to find another Investors or Partners to support them.

C390 supposed to be supported also by Boeing if the tied up underway as planned. Without Boeing support it will be more difficult for Embrear opening new market. Unlike E Series, C390 doesn't have same level of available support from Financial Institutions on commercial credit lines.

If KAI want to export their plan Transport, then tied up with Airbus can be decrement on potential export success. Unless they are only planning to use it domestically.

That's why Indonesian DI still keep close relationship with Airbus Military. Getting strong Partner even only for marketing is important to gain Export orders and support of Credit Line from Global Financial Institution.

That's why KAI and ROK still push Indonesia on KFX projects. Not for DI manufacturing or engineering support (KAI don't need that), but more to gain Export Market. Getting one 'captive' export market is Important for relative new player in Fighter market like KAI.

Back to Transport market, Antonov and Turkish TAI tied up can only be successful if TAI willing to take up most of the bill for development, manufacturing and getting access to Credit Institutions. Something that under current Turkey condition getting harder due to Turkey own domestic economics.

 

[Ahmad]

The photo that is likely captured during ADEX 2020 in Korea that start from 18 November-22 November could be a hint that the renegotiation of KFX/IFX program may likely lead into a possible deal where Indonesia is likely still inside the program.

This is posted Today by one of Indonesian wellknown defense related Twitter account.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330299173523042304

Indonesia delegation is also invited by Korean to attend the defense exsibition event

Hadiri Defence Expo di Korea, Kemhan RI tinjau sejumlah alpalhankam

Direktur Jenderal Potensi Pertahanan (Pothan) Mayjen TNI Dadang Hendrayudha mewakili Sekretaris Jenderal Kementerian Pertahanan Repu

www.airspace-review.com

DX KOREA 2024

DX KOREA 2024, 2024. 09. 25(Wed) ~ 09. 28(Sat), KINTEX

www.dxkorea.org

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes i saw these images of the exposition earlier, and i appreciate your enthousiasm, but a model of the KFX with "IFX" written on it, does not have any connection with the chance of success of the Indonesian-Korean negotiations.

Indonesia still has not ended the participation in this project officially and Korea still hopes that Indonesia will stay. And thats it....

The KFX is a great project, but if the Jokowi-administration comes with unacceptable demands and refuses to pay the 20%, then nothing will happen.

 

[Ahmad]

Yes i saw these images of the exposition earlier, and i appreciate your enthousiasm, but a model of the KFX with "IFX" written on it, does not have any connection with the chance of success of the Indonesian-Korean negotiations.

Indonesia still has not ended the participation in this project officially and Korea still hopes that Indonesia will stay. And thats it....

The KFX is a great project, but if the Jokowi-administration comes with unacceptable demands and refuses to pay the 20%, then nothing will happen.

Well, if you see ADEX in previous year where they dont even mention Indonesia completely and only use KFX as the name of the program and compare that with this year ADEX event shows that something positive may happen right ? This fighter mock up in KAI boot IMO do give some clue that possible deal that still include Indonesia inside the program still has good chance to happen despite any thing can still happen at this moment. The event also happened about almost 2 months after the last renegotiation in September, so at least this is the only clue that we can see of what may happen during the last renegotiation as both Indonesia and Korea officials just keep silence about the out come.

You also have said that Korea still wants Indonesia to be inside the program. We know that any symbolic things like this doesnt come from nowhere and it has affected your perception toward what Korean wants from Indonesia, right ? In previous event, just several months ago, when they showed the final assembly of KFX/IFX with the banner showing the program name as KFX/IFX is also suggesting similar thing. We all know that people sometime communicate through gesture, signs and symbolic things. Having to know that Korean still wants Indonesia inside the program should be seen as positive things regarding this Korea-Indonesia cooperation.

 

[Ananda]

Having to know that Korean still wants Indonesia inside the program should be seen as positive things

Like Proverbial say "it takes two to tanggo". ROK always want Indonesia to stay, the problem still is Indonesia administration still did not shown their confirmation for in or out of the project.

When SBY enter this project, it's to give DI exposure on Fighter Manufacturing. From beginning SBY administration knows it's only as Junior Partner and the whole project ownership still with KAI and ROK. It's basically hitched along the project and got license to manufacture KFX (or Indonesian version the IFX).

There's no Export License, or asking access on whole Tech developed by Korea on the project. It's license Manufacturing with some parts being build by DI. Nothing less nothing more.
This administration increase the demand and asking for Export licensing off course perplexed ROK. What this administration ask, is what Turkey ask, which is basically equal partnership. Turkey ask 40:40:20 with they and ROK as equal partner and Indonesia as Junior Partner (cause that's what Indonesia sign off). We know Korean doesn't want to give that, and Turkey goes it's own way.

Asking more demand then what Junior Partner entitled off, after agreeing only entering as Junior Partner, shown current administration questionable intentions on continuation in the project.
Thus it's meaningless to shown Korean willingness to still include Indonesia in the project. The problem is not with the South Korean, the problem always with this administration intentions.

 

[tonnyc]

What Ahmad says is that South Korea still wants Indonesian participation in KFX/IFX program, which is an uncontroversial statement. There is no need to add "but..." just to put shade on the IFX part. Sheesh. Just back off a little bit on this KFX/IFX thing, please. Give it time rather than insisting on duking it out in this forum. Thank you.

 

[Ananda]

Ahmad says that knowing Korean still want Indonesia in the program is a positive things for this Korean-Indonesian cooperation.
What Positive about that ?

Korean never wants Indonesia out, but Indonesia are the one that up until now doesn't give clear statement whether wants still in or out.
Thus any confirmation on Indonesia involvement in this project are not reading on "signs" from Korea as he shown in this thread, but "signs" from Indonesia side, which until now still 'unclear.

Just to remind all, why bother showing signs from Korean, as the problem is not with the Korean sides but with Indonesian sides.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

KAI is expected to support the future KFX through its new dedicated MRO company, Korea Aviation Engineering & Maintenance Service (KAEMS). (DAPA)

Korea Aerospace Industries’ (KAI’s) dedicated services company, Korea Aviation Engineering & Maintenance Service (KAEMS), has launched its new facility in Sacheon, in the south of the country, aiming to position the region as a hub for aerospace maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) services.

Korean MRO specialist launches Sacheon facility

Korea Aerospace Industries’ (KAI’s) dedicated services company, Korea Aviation Engineering & Maintenance Service (KAEMS), has launched its new facility in Sacheon, in...

www.janes.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Some KFX prototype 001 and 002 updates.

[KAI 업그레이드] 조립오차 ‘제로’에 도전한다 동체자동결합시스템 FASS(Fuselage Automated Splice System)

최종조립에 돌입하는 항공기의 주요 부품들의 중량은 대단히 무겁다. 주로 기수와 중앙동체, 그리고 후방동...

m.blog.naver.com

 

[Ahmad]

It is expected to complete first prototype manufacturing in first semester of 2021

상반기 공개 앞두고...'KF-X' 시제기 조립 구슬땀

산업 > 기업 뉴스: 경남 사천 한국항공우주산업(KAI) 본사 최종조립동에서 직원들이 한국형 전투기(KF-X) 시제기를 조립하고 있다. 단군 이래 최대 ...

www.sedaily.com