Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD

King Wally · Mar 5, 2013

weegee said:
That's a valid point but I suppose they have that luxury when your operating LHD's twice the size and weight of everyone else in the world? but as you say it all depends how important your choppers are to what you are trying to use your lhd for? 1 extra chopper can land a lot of extra men on the beach at the same time.

While I do get your point, I really would have trouble seeing a LHD in full flight with all 6 helo spots operating at once and the air traffic guys even being able to juggle a 7th slot if it were there. That decks going to be pretty damn hectic at the 6th slot alone and even with an opening for a 7th there's just only so much you can do at once really. Also nothing to say you cant have other Helo's ready to take off as the others hit the air, just move another couple into position from the side of the deck and you can have the full air component in the sky before long. The ski jump for my mind isn't a silly move, it just leaves that small opening of capability for "what ifs" in the future. US or UK F-35 cross decking in a tense situation isn't too silly a prospect particularly if resources get stretched and we are part of a coalition that's making a lot of moves fast and needs flexibility in a hurry.

As a very broad comment I'm overall very happy with the Australian investment in these 2 LHD's. They should provide a hell of a lot of capability and I can see them being actually used a lot more then say a traditional Aircraft carrier (like the old HMAS Melbourne etc). Probably cost a lot less to run and maintain too I imagine.

rand0m · Mar 6, 2013

King Wally said:
Looking at those pics you really get a feel for how large the JC1 is, she litterally dwarfs the Aircraft carrier in size.

I drive past the HMAS Canberra LHD at Williamstown eveyrday and I can tell you it also looks massive compared to some of the cruise ships in the bay.

King Wally · Mar 7, 2013

rand0m said:
I drive past the HMAS Canberra LHD at Williamstown eveyrday and I can tell you it also looks massive compared to some of the cruise ships in the bay.

If you ever get the chance I'd love to see some pics of how she is looking at present. I beleive based on recent press releases she is looking pretty smart!

rand0m · Mar 7, 2013

King Wally said:
If you ever get the chance I'd love to see some pics of how she is looking at present. I beleive based on recent press releases she is looking pretty smart!

the road runner · Mar 7, 2013

Thanx for posting random.
She is looking really good.Those cranes look small next to her.
Can not wait to see her in Sydney Harbour ,she is very impressive

King Wally · Mar 7, 2013

Thanks Random!

... I must admit when I hit this pic - http://i.imgur.com/nkrfR4t.jpg - I kinda got hit with a real feeling of national pride. Just something about looking at that ship that makes you want to stand tall as an aussie.

StevoJH · Mar 8, 2013

King Wally said:
Thanks Random!

... I must admit when I hit this pic - http://i.imgur.com/nkrfR4t.jpg - I kinda got hit with a real feeling of national pride. Just something about looking at that ship that makes you want to stand tall as an aussie.

I would have a bigger feeling of National Pride if we'd have built her here!

rand0m · Mar 8, 2013

To be honest (and this will probably enrage a few!) in real life it really does have that aircraft carrier feel about it, the pictures don't give justice to its actually size either.

Jhom · Mar 8, 2013

StevoJH said:
I would have a bigger feeling of National Pride if we'd have built her here!

Dont you worry, we are very proud of building them for you

: , plus you are building the AWD by yourselves and believe it or not thats a more complicated piece of machinery, the Canberra is just big.

Volkodav · Mar 9, 2013

Jhom said:
Dont you worry, we are very proud of building them for you : , plus you are building the AWD by yourselves and believe it or not thats a more complicated piece of machinery, the Canberra is just big.

Too true, many think large equates to cost, complexity and difficulty where ships are concerned. An analogy could be the LHDs are C-17s and the AWDs are F-35s supported by Wedgetails and Growlers.

StingrayOZ · Mar 9, 2013

The JC1 design seems to be a pretty good compromise, and should be popular with other medium navies.

The 7th spot was even mocked up on a RAN JC1 model. But you have the cost and risk modifying the design, you don't have the extra lifts etc to make good use of it, its further away from lifts,fire fighting etc. Also removing the jump no doubt will change the airflow, and no one would like using the dam thing underway anyway (may not even be useable). To really make use of a 7th, you would need more fuel store, lifts, hanger space etc. The jump may be useful for UAV's and also cross decking US/UK F-35's and is part of why the ship looks so fantastic.

But one of the main reasons is Australia intends to deploy both LHD's together, so thats 12 helo spots. Given Australia helo fleet, we would struggle to operate 12 naval helo's at the same time, let alone max out 12 spots and justify 14 spots (with 2 being unfavoured by pilots, crew and captains). For example, a USMC LHD has only 9 spots.

They are great looking ships. The pair in Sydney harbour will look fantastic. The pair deployed overseas will make one hell of a regional statement.

rand0m · Mar 10, 2013

King Wally said:
Thanks Random!

... I must admit when I hit this pic - http://i.imgur.com/nkrfR4t.jpg - I kinda got hit with a real feeling of national pride. Just something about looking at that ship that makes you want to stand tall as an aussie.

Save your pride for the Collins class replacement, we'll need all the pride and just about everything else we can get for that one...

King Wally · Mar 10, 2013

rand0m said:
Save your pride for the Collins class replacement, we'll need all the pride and just about everything else we can get for that one...

Tell the truth Im nervous as hell about that project. Gov needs to take what ever budget they are predicting and just double it right off the bat cause I don't think theres a person around that would be bold enough to think we can pull that off without hitting a few hurdles along the way.

For now anyway, I'll be very much enjoying seeing the LHD's hit deployment sometime in the near future! Can't wait to see them roll out on a legit mission be it Humanitarian or Peace Keeping etc. Who know's the way North Korea is yapping away it may one day even be needing for something a whole lot more heated.

StingrayOZ · Mar 10, 2013

You can pretty much start booking the LHD for every risky election date into the future.They will no doubt be one of the heaviest used assets in the ADF.

The Canberras are an exponential leap in Australia’s amphibious and sea control powers and come into commission in the next couple of years. It is perhaps no coincidence that the Fijian military junta’s timetable to democracy matches the timetable of the Canberras coming into operation. Another look at the RAN

I would imagine that the RN and the USN/USMC would both be keen to get some training exercises with the Canberra, as amphibious capability of that size (and the will to deploy both) is a fairly rare thing and could contribute significantly to global events. For the US it may mean the Canberra's can short fill in or reinforce a USMC amphib thus freeing a whole amphib up (and not screwing with sustainment/maintenance). For the RN, you have a non US partner that can integrate very closely with capability of a similar level to what she has herself.

Im still holding out that a 3rd will be ordered once the 1st is a known quantity (ie low risk) and it is politically favorable to make the announcement. I don't know how realistic that is, but the LHD actually have copped very little flack from the media/hippies and anecdotally are popular with all voters. I would expect an announcement by Sept this year if its going to happen.

Where are Collins replacement is something everyone seems to be distancing themselves from. Really what have we heard since Rudds whitepaper that is positive in that area?

King Wally · Mar 11, 2013

Came across a pretty decent (largly CGI based) overview of the ship by BAE

BAE LHD - YouTube

Has a lot of additional information I haven't seen elsewhere to be honest, including very specific cut away views of the various decks and facilities on board.

weegee · Mar 11, 2013

Hey guys, I was just wondering are our LHD's large enough for the V-22 Osprey to land on and operate from? I know they are a big plane/helicopter (aircraft) haha and didn't know if they are that big they could not fit onto the LHD's or not? or are the LHD's that big that a whole heap of the Ospreys could land and operate from if so that will be great for the USN and the whole inter operational capability etc thanks

King Wally · Mar 11, 2013

weegee said:
Hey guys, I was just wondering are our LHD's large enough for the V-22 Osprey to land on and operate from? I know they are a big plane/helicopter (aircraft) haha and didn't know if they are that big they could not fit onto the LHD's or not? or are the LHD's that big that a whole heap of the Ospreys could land and operate from if so that will be great for the USN and the whole inter operational capability etc thanks

I did read once that the Spanish version was designed in a way to allow ONE V-22 to land (Im unsure if that was to the far rear or front?). The Australian model as such would have to be the same.

I cannot say whether the lifts or hangers would fit the V-22 though? So someone would need to elaborate on that.

If your wondering if we could cross deck then sure they could drop an Osprey onto the deck and do what they need to do although overall the ship isn't really designed for them in mind. The below is a quote I found that seams to touch on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I_(L61)

The vessel has a flight deck of 202 metres (663 ft), with a "ski-jump" ramp. The ship's flight deck has eight landing spots for Harrier, F 35 JSF or medium helicopters, four spots for heavy helicopters of the CH-47 Chinook type, and one spots large enough for aircraft of V-22 Osprey size.[7] The ship can carry up to 30 aircraft in aircraft carrier mode, using the light vehicles bay as an additional storage zone.[7]

ADMk2 · Mar 11, 2013

weegee said:
Hey guys, I was just wondering are our LHD's large enough for the V-22 Osprey to land on and operate from? I know they are a big plane/helicopter (aircraft) haha and didn't know if they are that big they could not fit onto the LHD's or not? or are the LHD's that big that a whole heap of the Ospreys could land and operate from if so that will be great for the USN and the whole inter operational capability etc thanks

The flight deck is 100 feet wide on the Canberra class and the wing and rotor diameter on the V-22 is 98.9 feet wide, so there isn't a whole lot of room there and very little margin for error on most of the flightdeck.

There might be one or two spots on the flightdeck that can handle the V-22 but I would hazard a guess at "no" for the majority of the ship...

In terms of hangars, elevators etc that wouldn't be a problem as it has a folding rotor capability and it's wingspan and fuselage is much smaller than the Chinook which is intended to be operated from the LHD's.

Does anyone know if the Chinook has to lock it's rotors in the "admin" position before they can be taken below deck on the Canberra Class?

King Wally · Mar 11, 2013

ADMk2 said:
Does anyone know if the Chinook has to lock it's rotors in the "admin" position before they can be taken below deck on the Canberra Class?

I read once that the Chinooks have to remove their rotors to be stored in the Hanger. It was the only time I heard the topic come up. Can't remember the source however I have a feeling it may have been in that 100 odd page document linked at post #2 of this thread.

aussienscale · Mar 12, 2013

ADMk2 said:
The flight deck is 100 feet wide on the Canberra class and the wing and rotor diameter on the V-22 is 98.9 feet wide, so there isn't a whole lot of room there and very little margin for error on most of the flightdeck.

There might be one or two spots on the flightdeck that can handle the V-22 but I would hazard a guess at "no" for the majority of the ship...

In terms of hangars, elevators etc that wouldn't be a problem as it has a folding rotor capability and it's wingspan and fuselage is much smaller than the Chinook which is intended to be operated from the LHD's.

Does anyone know if the Chinook has to lock it's rotors in the "admin" position before they can be taken below deck on the Canberra Class?

Do recall that the JC/Canberra Class do have a dedicated landing spot on the aft section of the deck where there is more clearance for them, but one spot only, whether it will happen or if the Canberra Class will be cleared for it ? not sure, but would love to see it when our USMC friends are in Darwin.

Also recall that for the Chinook's to be stowed below that their rotor's have to be removed, also remember there were pictures of the JC on
fotosdebarcos.com / fotosdebarcos.org :: Índice

there was a series of pictures on there of an evolution loading Chinook's from the wharf with the Fwd crane and taking below without rotor's

Cheers

Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD

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