JSF's top secret 5% what we need!

[Smythstar]

Sorry to flog a dead horse but it seems the raptor threads been killed for the time been.

Anyhow on 60 mins tonight Brendan Nelson (Australian Defense Minister) stated in relation to the F22 vs F35 issue that its been recently revealed to him a secret capability and this secret 5% component makes the JSF very much what Australia needs..

Photon torpedos?

 

[Tasman]

Sorry to flog a dead horse but it seems the raptor threads been killed for the time been.

Anyhow on 60 mins tonight Brendan Nelson (Australian Defense Minister) stated in relation to the F22 vs F35 issue that its been recently revealed to him a secret capability and this secret 5% component makes the JSF very much what Australia needs..

Photon torpedos?

But we can always believe what politicians say, can't we? However, I hope he is right.

BTW, I think this thread would be appropriate if it was merged with the Aussie JSF to outcost F-22s? as the Raptor debate in the thread is not completely dead. It keeps making a comeback!

Cheers

 

[StingrayOZ]

Haha Photon torpedos..

I wonder what this 5% is..

Its a weird way to put it, 5%. What 5% can the F-35 have that the F-22 doesn't.

One of the key advantages of the F-35 (over the F-22) is air to ground. I would quiet easily belive the F-35 has some rather unique and advanced capabilities in that regard that the F-22 doesn't really need as its a air superiority fighter.5

I wonder if the secret 5% is secret for Australia.

 

[Occum]

Competency Vs Conformity, Compliance And Spin

Something for people to ask themselves . . . .

What gives a GP Medico with an ear ring and Labour Party tendencies turned Liberal Party politician the where-with-all to even think that he has the competencies to be able to understand things aeronautical, both technical and operational let alone military . . . . ?

. . . . let alone what the 3% to 5% of classified information that is normally associated with any such capability actually means?

Anyone who thinks that 'the 5% of classified information' changes the whole tenure and substance of a defence capability clearly has never spent any time in the military and, frankly, does not have a clue.

:shudder

As for who is telling the truth, I would put my money on a former Air Commander Australia, any day, particularly one who has stood up to the conformity and compliance and the spin that are the trade marks of the bureaucracy of this government and won!

 

[Tasman]

As for who is telling the truth, I would put my money on a former Air Commander Australia, any day, particularly one who has stood up to the conformity and compliance and the spin that are the trade marks of the bureaucracy of this government and won!

Occum, can you give some details regarding the way in which the former Air Commander Australia "stood up to the ... bureaucracy of this government and won?"

Cheers

 

[ELP]

Sorry to flog a dead horse but it seems the raptor threads been killed for the time been.

Anyhow on 60 mins tonight Brendan Nelson (Australian Defense Minister) stated in relation to the F22 vs F35 issue that its been recently revealed to him a secret capability and this secret 5% component makes the JSF very much what Australia needs..

Photon torpedos?

I posted something in the other thread ( F-22 vs JSF cost ). The good doctor is in a politically appointed post, appears to be out of his depth on a lot of defence matters and of course is using anything available to address criticism to his decision making ability.

The 5% that is classified is basically the "unknown" and existing engineering estimates as the full capability of a Block III avionics JSF isn't fully tested yet and is unknown to it's creators.

 

[phreeky]

I love the way they try and put a percentage of a quantity of information - maybe important/relevance plays no part, and purely took up 5% of the wording of a certain report? Or should we take all the estimated figures for speed/range etc and add 5%?!?! How stupid.

 

[Occum]

The Military Justice Debacle

Occum, can you give some details regarding the way in which the former Air Commander Australia "stood up to the ... bureaucracy of this government and won?"

Cheers

Sure. Have a look at the Senate Inquiry into the Australian Military Justice System and the admission of wrong doing and hearfelt apology that the Department was ultimately required to extend to AVM Peter Criss -

http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/fadt_ctte/legmiljustice/index.htm

The evidence is overwhelming.

Sadly, much of the inappropriate behaviour that AVM Peter Criss and others experienced continues in spades and there is still much that needs to be done within the system to fix those things that are patently broken, as you will see with the departure, some before their time, of a number of very senior officials over the coming six months.

No names, no packdrill but some are believed, beloved and adored by some on this newsgroup.

 

[Tasman]

60 (or is it 32?) Minutes Transcript

Here is the link to the transcript for the 60 Minutes 'story":

http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/s...story_1871.asp

Cheers

 

[Tasman]

Sure. Have a look at the Senate Inquiry into the Australian Military Justice System and the admission of wrong doing and hearfelt apology that the Department was ultimately required to extend to AVM Peter Criss -

http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/fadt_ctte/legmiljustice/index.htm

The evidence is overwhelming.

Sadly, much of the inappropriate behaviour that AVM Peter Criss and others experienced continues in spades and there is still much that needs to be done within the system to fix those things that are patently broken, as you will see with the departure, some before their time, of a number of very senior officials over the coming six months.

No names, no packdrill but some are believed, beloved and adored by some on this newsgroup.

Thanks for that Occum. I'm heading off to the cricket final between Tasmania and NSW so I'll read it when I get home.

I found an article published in the April 2005 in the Sydney Morning Herald that also provides some insight into the case up until that date:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/System-that-failed-a-top-gun/2005/04/18/1113676706563.html

Cheers

 

[Smythstar]

Yes.

I thought it could be the case

So instead of a legitimite debate on the merits of which aircraft should be considered he's simply short circuiting the arguement by saying there's this secret thing that you will never know about and thats why we are buying it, the effect of which we all start tittering about what this secret could possibly be instead of questioning or criticizing the logic of govt decision to begin with!

A pitty this is most likely spin to throw the hound's off the trail and there most probably isnt some secret anti gravity drive or phazer gun.

If this is the case and it seems it may well be due to the the fact the spin doctors are being wheeled out already, to me is very worriesome for there must indeed be some sound basis to the critisism the govt is receiving.

So according to defense all is well, shiney and good?

Why can I still smell blood then?

 

[old faithful]

Could the 5% possibly be a cut of the production, of some components for Australian industry?:unknown

 

[StingrayOZ]

But the F-35 can stand on its own.

- Its the only 5th generation plane we can afford
- Its the only new American plane we can afford
- Its the only new American plane they will let us buy (happily)

Then far below this
- Its the only true multirole aircraft being offered
- Its the only aircraft Australia could ever possibly fly off a ship
- Its the only aircraft with significant stealth technologies
- Its the only aircraft that will work off the shelf with the stuff we want to shoot from it
- Its pretty cheap to buy and run
- All our favourite war friends will be using it (US, UK etc)
- Then we have its first rate radar/guidance, internal weapons, performance, networking potential, Australian contracts etc etc etc.

But people don't want to hear this. They want to see the top speed, cornering forces and go "gee wizz, this thing will pull 40 G's at Mach 12!!". The F-35 is not that sort of plane.

The F-22 has a smaller internal weapons load. The F-22 costs more to buy and run. Selling us the F-22 causes major headaches for the USA. The Typhoon is very distant in terms of radar performance, networking, radar, weapons compatability etc. French and russian's were not in the game for many reasons, some already mentioned.

I hope the secret 5% is the 5% they need to increase the budget by to get 24 F-35B's so Australia can rejoin the carrier club.

 

[Tasman]

But the F-35 can stand on its own.

- Its the only 5th generation plane we can afford
- Its the only new American plane we can afford
- Its the only new American plane they will let us buy (happily)

Then far below this
- Its the only true multirole aircraft being offered
- Its the only aircraft Australia could ever possibly fly off a ship
- Its the only aircraft with significant stealth technologies
- Its the only aircraft that will work off the shelf with the stuff we want to shoot from it
- Its pretty cheap to buy and run
- All our favourite war friends will be using it (US, UK etc)
- Then we have its first rate radar/guidance, internal weapons, performance, networking potential, Australian contracts etc etc etc.

But people don't want to hear this. They want to see the top speed, cornering forces and go "gee wizz, this thing will pull 40 G's at Mach 12!!". The F-35 is not that sort of plane.

The F-22 has a smaller internal weapons load. The F-22 costs more to buy and run. Selling us the F-22 causes major headaches for the USA. The Typhoon is very distant in terms of radar performance, networking, radar, weapons compatability etc. French and russian's were not in the game for many reasons, some already mentioned.

I hope the secret 5% is the 5% they need to increase the budget by to get 24 F-35B's so Australia can rejoin the carrier club.

I like the way you're thinking StingrayOZ and I think you make some really good points in this post!

Cheers

 

[Todjaeger]

Yes.

I thought it could be the case

So instead of a legitimite debate on the merits of which aircraft should be considered he's simply short circuiting the arguement by saying there's this secret thing that you will never know about and thats why we are buying it, the effect of which we all start tittering about what this secret could possibly be instead of questioning or criticizing the logic of govt decision to begin with!

A pitty this is most likely spin to throw the hound's off the trail and there most probably isnt some secret anti gravity drive or phazer gun.

If this is the case and it seems it may well be due to the the fact the spin doctors are being wheeled out already, to me is very worriesome for there must indeed be some sound basis to the critisism the govt is receiving.

So according to defense all is well, shiney and good?

Why can I still smell blood then?

I feel I have to ask this question.

If not the F-35 Lightning II JSF, what aircraft, or combination of aircraft, do you think meets Australia's NACC requirements? Please keep in mind that the NACC is to serve from roughly 2015 to 2030 or later. Also remember that at present, the F-22A Raptor is not an option and that before it would become an option diplomatic and legal issues need to be resolved.

-Cheers

 

[Tasman]

I feel I have to ask this question.

If not the F-35 Lightning II JSF, what aircraft, or combination of aircraft, do you think meets Australia's NACC requirements? Please keep in mind that the NACC is to serve from roughly 2015 to 2030 or later. Also remember that at present, the F-22A Raptor is not an option and that before it would become an option diplomatic and legal issues need to be resolved.

-Cheers

Without the F-22 in the mix I am happy with the idea of 100 F-35s, but I would like the last 25 to be VSTOL F35Bs.

Cheers

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The STOVL idea is great for the LHD's. However there has to be a performance deficit with the F35B over the F35A not too mention extra cost. The 4 squadrons we have now are mainly intended for defence of the mainland, yeah? So would MoD see the reduced effectiveness of the F35b, however small, compared to the F35A in a defence of australia/marritime strike/deep strike mission scenario as being justified for increase in the ability to project power the STOVL would give us? Personally i love the idea, but will MoD go for it???:unknown

 

[ELP]

I feel I have to ask this question.

If not the F-35 Lightning II JSF, what aircraft, or combination of aircraft, do you think meets Australia's NACC requirements? Please keep in mind that the NACC is to serve from roughly 2015 to 2030 or later. Also remember that at present, the F-22A Raptor is not an option and that before it would become an option diplomatic and legal issues need to be resolved.

-Cheers

The big obstacle to looking at alternative aircraft is getting around a Defence Minister who believes he knows 5% more than anyone else. Until that happens any alternatives are off the table.

 

[Smythstar]

I feel I have to ask this question.

If not the F-35 Lightning II JSF, what aircraft, or combination of aircraft, do you think meets Australia's NACC requirements?

-Cheers

Yes ~ My choice would be the Haunebu X111, Should be a couple kicking around under the Gap, Nth West Cape or Woomera :

 

[harryriedl]

The STOVL idea is great for the LHD's. However there has to be a performance deficit with the F35B over the F35A not too mention extra cost. The 4 squadrons we have now are mainly intended for defence of the mainland, yeah? So would MoD see the reduced effectiveness of the F35b, however small, compared to the F35A in a defence of australia/marritime strike/deep strike mission scenario as being justified for increase in the ability to project power the STOVL would give us? Personally i love the idea, but will MoD go for it???:unknown

come on the difference isn't that large were not comparing harriers to F18 its range is about 200km less its internal payloads a bit less but for that you get an incredibly versatile plane with performance 10 fold compared to the harrier